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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
So if the story of being jumped from behind while returning to his truck holds true, and he was crying out for help while getting beaten, how does this point hold up????
It's worth noting that wasn't the story Zimmerman initially gave police. His first story was that he'd stepped out of his truck to check the street sign, and Trayvon jumped him our of nowhere. After it became clear that was a lie, Zimmerman's story changed, to one of him briefly following Trayvon (who, we know, was walking away), then backtracking, at which point he claimed Trayvon snuck up behind him and jumped him. When the suspect lies about very basic facts of a murder case, thats a good sign that at the very least they should be arrested.
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On March 24 2012 05:44 tree.hugger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2012 05:27 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Show nested quote +Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote. The witness I have cited saw who was shouting for help. It was Zimmerman. The woman who claims she heard a "child crying" did not see who was shouting. She has no basis for claiming she knows who the shouts came from. Trayvon's father also told police it was not his son shouting on the recordings, but then later changed his story after the family decided to file a lawsuit. And we have already addressed this but someone following you or approaching you is not a crime. There is not any jurisdiction anywhere that allows you to pin someone on the ground and beat them in the head because they followed you. Witnesses can be wrong. Especially when it's dark out, and there's confusion. Especially when there's pressure from police to produce a certain story. This has been proven in court case after court case. Witnesses can lie, misremember, or be persuaded to remember differently. Your entire argument is based on the argument of a single eyewitness. While this person may claim to be the best eyewitness, he was not the only one. The information by other eyewitnesses present a different picture, even if they never saw the crime committed. And your witness only saw the incident for a moment. He was inside when the shot was fired. Perhaps he saw Zimmerman and Martin rolling on the ground together and Zimmerman happened to be on the bottom. Perhaps as your witness ran back to his house, Zimmerman overpowered Martin, pushed him to the ground, and shot him execution style. You don't know. It could be anything. It's an incomplete eyewitness testimony. Moreover, the only independent source I can find that presents the story of that witness is the MyFOXOrlando report. Everything else links to that report. Your argument is based upon a single news story and a single eyewitness testimony of many. I've not seen a source where Trayvon's father mis-identified the voice on the recordings, but even if I take your word for it, it's completely reasonable to take snap judgements taken just after having learned about the death of your son with a grain of salt. Following someone in a car, and then approaching them may not be a crime. But it surely is enough to make someone afraid, especially a 17 year old boy who sees a 28 year old man following him. That could easily be justification for the person being followed to attempt to confront the person, especially if they feel that running is dangerous. Remember who shot who here. I can't bring these points up enough. - Martin posed absolutely no lethal threat to Zimmerman. Even if he was besting Zimmerman in a fight, that is no justification for lethal force. Only the threat of imminent death, or the loss of a limb or an eye justifies lethal force. That doesn't apply here. It simply doesn't. There was nothing Martin could've done, save breaking his bottle of ice tea and using it as a shiv that would've posed a serious threat to Zimmerman. - You're arguing your entire case based on the testimony of a single witness, quoted in a single local TV article. The only other piece of testimony that corroborates this unidentified witness was Zimmerman himself. This may be enough evidence for reasonable doubt. But that is for a court to decide. By any standard, Zimmerman should be arrested. On March 24 2012 05:41 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:41 CaptainFwiffo wrote:On March 24 2012 05:28 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:24 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Had a black man been the shooter, he would already be in jail. If the victim was not a young black male, the whole thing would have been handled differently by the cops. It has at least that much to do with race, even if Zimmerman is not racist. Is this a joke? Do you actually believe this? Do you actually live in this country? It is conjecture. It's a highly reasonable conjecture.
Now you're just being unreasonable. Someone punching you in the head while you are on the ground poses "absolutely no lethal threat"? Even if punches to the head couldn't kill--google "one punch kill", people die from less severe beatings all the time--Zimmerman's pistol could have easily been taken from him and used to execute him.
By what standard should this even go to court? There's evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story and none to suggest he is lying. You don't just bring cases with no evidence to court based on emotional fantasy.
Here is a video that mentions Trayvon's father telling police it is not his son in the recordings:
Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Video
http://www.wesh.com/video/30696935/detail.html
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On March 24 2012 05:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +So if the story of being jumped from behind while returning to his truck holds true, and he was crying out for help while getting beaten, how does this point hold up???? It's worth noting that wasn't the story Zimmerman initially gave police. His first story was that he'd stepped out of his truck to check the street sign, and Trayvon jumped him our of nowhere. After it became clear that was a lie, Zimmerman's story changed, to one of him briefly following Trayvon (who, we know, was walking away), then backtracking, at which point he claimed Trayvon snuck up behind him and jumped him. When the suspect lies about very basic facts of a murder case, thats a good sign that at the very least they should be arrested.
Source for these changing stories?
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By what standard should this even go to court? There's evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story and none to suggest he is lying.
We know for a fact that, at the very least, he lied about why he got out of the truck.
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On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of.
You're confused. The person you are referring to is one of the two roommates he mentions who did not see anything until after the shot was fired.
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On March 23 2012 23:50 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 23:48 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 23 2012 23:40 Sermokala wrote:
Pot is still illegal in this country and he might have been asking for mushrooms. Both of which make him a criminal and someone you don't want randomly strolling around where you live when its raining. Okay, seriously. Hahahahhahahahha. Asking for mushrooms makes you a criminal? That's like, child logic, or something. I don't even.. Soliciting drugs is a crime.
So is killing someone. But we aren't here to discuss if Tray had ever broken the law in his life. Maybe Zimmerman was a drug dealer or had done his fair share of drug dealing/using. You don't know and its not important. If you were an attorny at this case and you tried to bring up that facebook shit a judge would slap you so hard into next week. Its BS that people are even talking about it. As if doing anything that anyone could consider "wrong" makes your life less valuable. Zimmerman didn't know Tray so anything that we know about him from hindsight, doesn't make any sense in this case.
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On March 24 2012 05:56 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:44 tree.hugger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2012 05:27 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Show nested quote +Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote. The witness I have cited saw who was shouting for help. It was Zimmerman. The woman who claims she heard a "child crying" did not see who was shouting. She has no basis for claiming she knows who the shouts came from. Trayvon's father also told police it was not his son shouting on the recordings, but then later changed his story after the family decided to file a lawsuit. And we have already addressed this but someone following you or approaching you is not a crime. There is not any jurisdiction anywhere that allows you to pin someone on the ground and beat them in the head because they followed you. Witnesses can be wrong. Especially when it's dark out, and there's confusion. Especially when there's pressure from police to produce a certain story. This has been proven in court case after court case. Witnesses can lie, misremember, or be persuaded to remember differently. Your entire argument is based on the argument of a single eyewitness. While this person may claim to be the best eyewitness, he was not the only one. The information by other eyewitnesses present a different picture, even if they never saw the crime committed. And your witness only saw the incident for a moment. He was inside when the shot was fired. Perhaps he saw Zimmerman and Martin rolling on the ground together and Zimmerman happened to be on the bottom. Perhaps as your witness ran back to his house, Zimmerman overpowered Martin, pushed him to the ground, and shot him execution style. You don't know. It could be anything. It's an incomplete eyewitness testimony. Moreover, the only independent source I can find that presents the story of that witness is the MyFOXOrlando report. Everything else links to that report. Your argument is based upon a single news story and a single eyewitness testimony of many. I've not seen a source where Trayvon's father mis-identified the voice on the recordings, but even if I take your word for it, it's completely reasonable to take snap judgements taken just after having learned about the death of your son with a grain of salt. Following someone in a car, and then approaching them may not be a crime. But it surely is enough to make someone afraid, especially a 17 year old boy who sees a 28 year old man following him. That could easily be justification for the person being followed to attempt to confront the person, especially if they feel that running is dangerous. Remember who shot who here. I can't bring these points up enough. - Martin posed absolutely no lethal threat to Zimmerman. Even if he was besting Zimmerman in a fight, that is no justification for lethal force. Only the threat of imminent death, or the loss of a limb or an eye justifies lethal force. That doesn't apply here. It simply doesn't. There was nothing Martin could've done, save breaking his bottle of ice tea and using it as a shiv that would've posed a serious threat to Zimmerman. - You're arguing your entire case based on the testimony of a single witness, quoted in a single local TV article. The only other piece of testimony that corroborates this unidentified witness was Zimmerman himself. This may be enough evidence for reasonable doubt. But that is for a court to decide. By any standard, Zimmerman should be arrested. On March 24 2012 05:41 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:41 CaptainFwiffo wrote:On March 24 2012 05:28 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:24 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Had a black man been the shooter, he would already be in jail. If the victim was not a young black male, the whole thing would have been handled differently by the cops. It has at least that much to do with race, even if Zimmerman is not racist. Is this a joke? Do you actually believe this? Do you actually live in this country? It is conjecture. It's a highly reasonable conjecture. Now you're just being unreasonable. Someone punching you in the head while you are on the ground poses "absolutely no lethal threat"? Even if punches to the head couldn't kill--google "one punch kill", people die from less severe beatings all the time--Zimmerman's pistol could have easily been taken from him and used to execute him. By what standard should this even go to court? There's evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story and none to suggest he is lying. You don't just bring cases with no evidence to court based on emotional fantasy. Here is a video that mentions Trayvon's father telling police it is not his son in the recordings: Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Videohttp://www.wesh.com/video/30696935/detail.html
all you need to arrest (and go to court) is probable cause. there is debate as to what that actually means, but pretty much everyone agrees its not a high standard. (Florida's law is really weird though in the way it uses immunities, but based on the police's statement, i assume probable cause is still enough.) i usually describe probably cause as 25% sure the person is guilty of the crime. i think in this case that there is enough evidence to meet that minimal standard even with the conflicting evidence that was given by "John."
whether he will be convicted on the beyond the reasonable doubt standard, however, is another issue.
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On March 24 2012 05:51 JeremyK wrote:
"- Martin posed absolutely no lethal threat to Zimmerman. Even if he was besting Zimmerman in a fight, that is no justification for lethal force. Only the threat of imminent death, or the loss of a limb or an eye justifies lethal force. That doesn't apply here. It simply doesn't. There was nothing Martin could've done, save breaking his bottle of ice tea and using it as a shiv that would've posed a serious threat to Zimmerman. "
So if the story of being jumped from behind while returning to his truck holds true, and he was crying out for help while getting beaten, how does this point hold up????
You are supposed to be able to meet force with force. The other person has to escalate the force before you can. Being beaten up is not a lethal threat, so you can't meet it with deadly force. You can kill him only if he is trying to kill you or cause grievous bodily harm, something like your major organs being in danger or someone trying to hack off your limbs. There is currently little to suggest that Martin would have had any reason, intention, or will to beat Zimmerman to the point of death or grievous injury unless Martin was trying to defend himself from being shot to death.
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On March 24 2012 06:02 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +By what standard should this even go to court? There's evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story and none to suggest he is lying. We know for a fact that, at the very least, he lied about why he got out of the truck.
I'm not seeing where you get the idea that he lied, or there is any contradiction here.
He followed Trayvon in his truck. He lost sight of him, he got out of his truck, he got assaulted. There's no contradiction in any of this.
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On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account.
I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back.
You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias.
TLDR: you just got served.
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On March 24 2012 06:03 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 23:50 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 23:48 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 23 2012 23:40 Sermokala wrote:
Pot is still illegal in this country and he might have been asking for mushrooms. Both of which make him a criminal and someone you don't want randomly strolling around where you live when its raining. Okay, seriously. Hahahahhahahahha. Asking for mushrooms makes you a criminal? That's like, child logic, or something. I don't even.. Soliciting drugs is a crime. So is killing someone. But we aren't here to discuss if Tray had ever broken the law in his life. Maybe Zimmerman was a drug dealer or had done his fair share of drug dealing/using. You don't know and its not important. If you were an attorny at this case and you tried to bring up that facebook shit a judge would slap you so hard into next week. Its BS that people are even talking about it. As if doing anything that anyone could consider "wrong" makes your life less valuable. Zimmerman didn't know Tray so anything that we know about him from hindsight, doesn't make any sense in this case.
Read the thread, ive explained.
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On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served.
It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him.
That's just preposterous.
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On March 24 2012 05:55 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. didnt she also say that it looked like he was trying to stop the bleeding or something to that effect? it could be that the kid was on top of him, he shot the kid and knocked him off and then he got on top to try to stop the bleeding because he realized he fucked up. i am just theorizing of course.
all she said was he said to call the police, and that she assumed he couldn't be the shooter because the shooter would have ran. and that he disputed that there was any fight. She said that he had his hands on his back (zimmerman's on his own back). so he wasn't trying to stop bleeding.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
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I just want to say, this is first and foremost a case about injustice in our legal system. but it IS about racism, more specifically the racial profiling of black males.
I know this because i have lived it, and all my life. it doesn't matter if Zimmerman was not white, because racial issues go BEYOND simply whites hate blacks or vice versa. it's the jump-to-conclusion profile of a young black male. it's INDOCTRINATED. i am a black male that has been almost at every major juncture scrutinized (extra), or not believed, whether it was when i was working at a radio shack to pay for college and old white men didn't think they could possibly be "helped" with anything technical by me, or having to show and prove much harder than a lot of my peers in the "IT" field; hell, even having grown up in the fairly common but rarely documented "one foot in one foot out of the ghetto" life that many black americans in the "low to high" middle class and up have lived; even I myself have been subject to being much more "concerned" when i see other black males walking about at night. is it because i'm "racist" towards other blacks? no, it's conditioning.
THIS (the deep rooted subconscious feeling that young black males are up to no good), in my opinion, is why the police dept. botched this so bad. look at zimmerman (hispanic looking sure, but thats not a race its an ethnicity and i believe it came out his father was white though i have no link to back that up) while being a wannabe "cop" , related to police officers, i can see how they could be swayed by him, to the point of not going through proper protocol like drug testing, evidence security etc, while drug testing the dead, black male "victim".
so in closing i just want to say to all the skeptics of "martin" , do you feel racism, specifically profiling, didn't have any part in this tragedy, and that if martin had been white male, the police would have acted the same way? While i do think this is by and large a law issue more than civil liberties and whatnot, to deny that race had anything to do with it is to ignore both the history of this country AND the facts of this case.
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He followed Trayvon in his truck.
No he didn't. Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend right before this happened, and he reported being followed by a strange man, on foot. Whatever happened after that, it is clear that Zimmerman got out of the truck to follow Trayvon, which directly contradicts what he told police.
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Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case.
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On March 24 2012 06:03 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. You're confused. The person you are referring to is one of the two roommates he mentions who did not see anything until after the shot was fired.
Actually they were watching through the window before they came outside.
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Here's the report of the last phone call Trayvon ever made
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2huVREge5I
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
This directly contradicts Zimmerman's story.
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On March 24 2012 06:11 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:55 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. didnt she also say that it looked like he was trying to stop the bleeding or something to that effect? it could be that the kid was on top of him, he shot the kid and knocked him off and then he got on top to try to stop the bleeding because he realized he fucked up. i am just theorizing of course. all she said was he said to call the police, and that she assumed he couldn't be the shooter because the shooter would have ran. and that he disputed that there was any fight. She said that he had his hands on his back (zimmerman's on his own back). so he wasn't trying to stop bleeding. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
she said:
“One on each side, on his knees, with his hands on his back. I immediately thought, okay, obviously if it’s the shooter, he would have ran,” Cutcher detailed. “I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”
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EPT
