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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 24 2012 05:18 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
What bothers me the most about this is how we almost never heard about it. How many times has a young black man been gunned down, and it was just chalked up to "gang violence" or an act of "self defense"?
Also, how is it that that Trayvon was laying on the slab for three days, and the police had made the effort to run a tox screen on the body, but couldn't be bothered to look at his cell phone in an effort to find next of kin? Three days? It would have taken three seconds to look at the phone. They could have done it on the scene.
yeah the police fucked up. it's why the PD chief stepped down.
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On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation,
However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:
2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:
a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/entireversion/onlinejurryinstructions.pdf
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On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote.
Nice analysis here, I think it deserves to be quoted for no other reason than to ensure that it's seen by others on this new page
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So a witness reports there was no fight, no punching, no wrestling.......but somehow Zimmerman ends with blood on him, grass on his back, needs to be hospitalized. How does that happen without a fight?
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I really don't think that any of this had to do with race...
Had a black man been the shooter, he would already be in jail. If the victim was not a young black male, the whole thing would have been handled differently by the cops. It has at least that much to do with race, even if Zimmerman is not racist.
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A lot of you are saying Zimmerman created the situation by being the aggressive one, however I think its very foolish for anyone to take that stance. If you listen to the tape, he was following simply to inform the 911 operator where the person was going so that police could find him. He didn't want him to "get away". Do I think hes an idiot for getting out of his vehicle? yes.
However, if the accounts of what happened are true, this is a sad story that wont end with anyone being charged. If he was truly walking back to his truck after losing sigh of Trayvon and was jumped by Trayvon, its hard to say he shouldn't have protected his life. If he was the one crying for help, it adds up that he waited as a last resort to protect himself with his weapon.
What I see happened so far from what has been said: Zimmerman made himself look too suspicious while following Trayvon. Trayvon sought to take matters in his own hands to defend what he most likely thought was a hostile situation. Zimmerman being outmatched after being attacked and crying for help made a decision to defend himself. Two people using self defense as a motive for their actions.
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On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Show nested quote +Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote.
The witness I have cited saw who was shouting for help. It was Zimmerman.
The woman who claims she heard a "child crying" did not see who was shouting. She has no basis for claiming she knows who the shouts came from. Trayvon's father also told police it was not his son shouting on the recordings, but then later changed his story after the family decided to file a lawsuit.
And we have already addressed this but someone following you or approaching you is not a crime. There is not any jurisdiction anywhere that allows you to pin someone on the ground and beat them in the head because they followed you.
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And for the record, I do agree the cops dropped the ball heavily on this one with the lack of proper investigation.
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On March 24 2012 05:18 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:14 Batch wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? Of course you should be allowed to use the amount of violence needed to defend yourself if someone is trying to kill you. The problem is that you can't use that violence until someone actually tries to kill you. Most full grown males have the potential to kill someone with their hands, do you really think people should be allowed to shot down whoever they want just to be on the safe side? No, but if that person has you pinned to the ground and is striking you in the head while you scream for help, nobody comes to help you, and the man beating you shows no signs of stopping, then I think it is fair to use a firearm. Apparently Florida law agrees at the moment.
In this case the one that murdered followed a teenager boy, he wasn't "pinned to the ground". If every untrained person in fear can use guns to solve a conflict where will this lead to?
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On March 24 2012 05:24 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote. Nice analysis here, I think it deserves to be quoted for no other reason than to ensure that it's seen by others on this new page
Source on voice being boy not man? Every source I've read say people couldn't tell. In fact sources for all the "facts" state would be nice.
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On March 24 2012 05:24 CaptainFwiffo wrote:Had a black man been the shooter, he would already be in jail. If the victim was not a young black male, the whole thing would have been handled differently by the cops. It has at least that much to do with race, even if Zimmerman is not racist.
Is this a joke? Do you actually believe this?
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To be honest I find it hard to believe the police investigation was about as deep as you would expect for burglary or something. I mean murder is generally seen as one of the most serious crimes that exists, how could that possibly not get at least somewhat properly investigated.
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On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed.
Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him.
If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol.
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On March 24 2012 05:17 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:53 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 24 2012 04:42 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:When they neglect to mention that the shot was fired while Zimmerman was on the ground on his back screaming for help with Trayvon punching him in the head, how can it not be an exaggeration? You yourself have just exaggerated the story in the same way.
Anyone who tries to tell this story and just conveniently leaves out the part where Zimmerman is being pummeled and in danger of serious brain injuries or death is being dishonest. Nobody but Zimmerman has corroborated this, and in fact, several pieces of evidence outright contradict it. In particular the fact that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend until just prior to the incident, and was evidently both afraid and attempting to get away. The idea that he would then suddenly hang up the phone, turn around and head back to attack Zimmerman--and then somehow overpower Zimmerman despite the fact that Zimmerman had just been stalking him and outweighed him by 100 lbs--is farcicle. edit: also no evidence supports that the shot was fired from that position, AND there are witnesses who said that zimmerman was straddling the kid right after the gunshot. now unless he fired the gun pushed the kid off him and then straddled him, there is no way that is true. This. Zimmerman's story has a million holes. The only eyewitness to the beating has corroborated Zimmerman's account of events. There aren't any holes in his story. Zimmerman was in danger of being seriously injured or killed by the beating. This is a clear cut case of self defense. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation This is bullshit. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.
“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.
Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.
“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.
“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.
“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.
“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.
“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.
“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.
“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.
“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.
Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon. That "witness" did not see anything that happened before the gunshot. This one did: Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation As you can see Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman giving him a savage beating, he got shot and falls to the ground, and Zimmerman then gets up. What your favoured "witness" saw after the shooting is completely consistent with Zimmerman's story and the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman being beaten. You're way off base. Numerous witnesses have stated that the voice they heard crying for help was clearly that of a boy and not a man, while the only witness to testify otherwise was the one you've repeatedly referenced. Furthermore, several witnesses who were interviewed by police said that the police pressured them to change their story to say that Zimmerman was the one crying for help. Your assertion that Trayvon Martin being a football player makes it more likely that he would win a fight against Zimmerman is absurd; look at the actual facts of their builds. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant amount, and at 28 years old, his body was significantly more developed than the 17 year old Martin. Your assertion that Martin picked the fight because if he had chosen to run he would've gotten away, is also nonsense. Zimmerman (A) had been following Martin from a car, and (B) Martin had no reason to run, he was walking in a gated community where his father's girlfriend lived. Furthermore, very often, African-American parents tell their children not to run in suspicious circumstances, because it is always treated as a sign of guilt. Martin, in not fleeing Zimmerman, may have been trying to address the situation with words. Moreover, your assertion that Martin picked the fight, in general is the most gaping whole in your entire argument. Zimmerman stepped out of his car to pursue Martin. This is not in dispute. In stepping out of his car and engaging in pursuit, something which he was explicitly warned to not do, Zimmerman was the aggressor in this situation. He was armed with both a gun and a car, he had all the power. If the two actually did fight, you could make the most compelling argument that Martin had a right to self-defense, after all, he had just been stalked by a man he did not know, who then came out of his car and pursued him. That seems to be a significantly more compelling rational for self-defense than the story of man who chased after a boy carrying only a bag of skittles and an ice tea saying he needed to shoot the kid when there was a confrontation. Florida law does not protect you if you initiate the confrontation, and most state laws, including Florida's (although Florida gives you the benefit of the doubt, which is new) explain that the use of force in retaliation must be proportional. You cannot use deadly force unless you have reason to fear for your life, limbs, or vital organs (like your eyes). A property owner chasing a thief cannot use deadly force if the thief is running away. A man getting his ass kicked in a bar cannot use deadly force unless he has reason to believe that he's not just getting his ass kicked, but there is the potential that he may die. You have made eighty five posts in this topic arguing an extremely narrow and indefensible view based on your absolute certitude of the correctness of a single eyewitness, when there are multiple eyewitnesses who offer competing testimony and there is evidence of police coercion. Secondly, your version of events, even if it were valid, is still not defensible under Florida law, and common sense. I'd call you a troll, but your dedication here surpasses any reasonable troll. Thus, I have to conclude that you are either the president of the NRA, or the actual witness you consistently quote.
1: He was not told NOT to persue, he was told he didn't have to. There is a very big difference in a case like this, one that you and most of the other people seem to have missed.
2: Even if what you say is right about the kid defending himself, self defense stops when you have the other guy pinned screaming for help and you continue to hit them in the head. There is evidence to support this is what happened (injuries and stains on zimmerman) while there is not evidence to support that it didn't happen. Again zimmerman is overweight, his size does not mean he can take on an in shape football player, even if he is older and bigger. All the signs and evidence point to the fact that he did NOT win the fight, as he was the one on the ground.
Zimmerman having the gun and the car having "all the power" is very misleading. He was not in the car when this occured so that does not exactly help. As for the gun, he was on the ground screaming for help and being hit in the head, what makes you think the gun was his power? The kid could've just as likely taken the gun from him and shot him, if he knew about it.
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On March 24 2012 05:24 Lockitupv2 wrote:
So a witness reports there was no fight, no punching, no wrestling.......but somehow Zimmerman ends with blood on him, grass on his back, needs to be hospitalized. How does that happen without a fight?
She's making a lot of money doing the rounds at different media outlets. You can't expect her to tell a story that the media doesn't want to hear.
Anyways, she has admitted she did not see anything before the shooting. Everything she says about who was screaming or what happened before the shot was fired is her fantasy.
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On March 24 2012 05:27 BillClinton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:18 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:14 Batch wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? Of course you should be allowed to use the amount of violence needed to defend yourself if someone is trying to kill you. The problem is that you can't use that violence until someone actually tries to kill you. Most full grown males have the potential to kill someone with their hands, do you really think people should be allowed to shot down whoever they want just to be on the safe side? No, but if that person has you pinned to the ground and is striking you in the head while you scream for help, nobody comes to help you, and the man beating you shows no signs of stopping, then I think it is fair to use a firearm. Apparently Florida law agrees at the moment. In this case the one that murdered followed a teenager boy, he wasn't "pinned to the ground".
Yes he was.
Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon MartinLiterally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read "George Zimmerman, a white man," or "shoot by a white man." Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is "mostly white." This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white. All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media. - The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
- The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
- Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
- Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.
The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important. http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin
Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Video
http://www.wesh.com/video/30696935/detail.html
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That link only mentions three calls out of 46, maybe the other calls involved other races, or maybe he is just suspicious of any males in his neighborhood that he doesn't recognize, or maybe it is just coincidence.
Also, I think normally a vigilante would dispense justice, not hold someone so that the law could do it.
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On March 24 2012 05:31 hunts wrote:
As for the gun, he was on the ground screaming for help and being hit in the head, what makes you think the gun was his power? The kid could've just as likely taken the gun from him and shot him, if he knew about it.
Apparently we don't know who was screaming, right?
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On March 24 2012 05:34 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:31 hunts wrote:
As for the gun, he was on the ground screaming for help and being hit in the head, what makes you think the gun was his power? The kid could've just as likely taken the gun from him and shot him, if he knew about it.
Apparently we don't know who was screaming, right?
We don't, but so far the evidence of the stains and injuries heavily supports the idea that it was zimmerman on the ground, and the only actual testimony supports this as well.
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EPT
