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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 24 2012 06:26 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:16 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:13 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 24 2012 06:03 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. You're confused. The person you are referring to is one of the two roommates he mentions who did not see anything until after the shot was fired. Actually they were watching through the window before they came outside. But they weren't watching anything until after the gun shot. She even says she had no idea Zimmerman was the shooter. Please try to keep up. You are the one that needs to keep up.
I seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Most of my posts now are just correcting people like you who continue to say things which are downright false.
She did not see the altercation before the shooting. She did not see the shooting. She "witnessed" only Zimmerman over the body which is completely consistent with both Zimmerman and the eyewitness John's account of events.
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On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense.
Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you.
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On March 24 2012 06:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I cannot believe it if he had injuries, and police didn't document them with pictures, hard evidence. People need to be fired and not just the police cheif. They also never got in touch with the last person he was talking to right before he died. You'd think having a shooting victim with a cell phone on him, showing he was on the phone until right before the shooting, would justify at least investigating. The police are either bigots or incompetents, and either way should lose their jobs over this.
Actually this is because the phone was locked and they were still subpoening for the records. They didn't inform the family though of Martin's death though until the family tried to report him missing.
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On March 24 2012 06:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:24 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:15 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:12 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case. it could be from his arrest for suspected resisting arrest a few years prior. but he was pacing back and forth right after the shooting, he didn't need to be hospitalized for sure. oftentimes they make you be taken to the hospital for an examination and then release you right after which is probably the extent of his hospitalization. I cannot believe it if he had injuries, and police didn't document them with pictures, hard evidence. People need to be fired and not just the police cheif. That's the real problem. They didn't investigate the crime scene or call in CSI (whatever the real version of that is), so all the ballistic evidence, the blood splatter, the fresh wound and powder patterns on Martin's body etc are all gone. No matter what happens, unless someone comes forward, Zimmerman will never be convicted and we'll never have hard evidence of what actually happened.
Dont bring TV shows into this. Ballistic evidence can be determined from the body, which is turn predicts blood splatter. If he took hits from Zimmerman they will be on the body.
What if his body shows no signs of being hit?
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It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point.
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On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you.
Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner.
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On March 24 2012 06:34 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:27 cz wrote:On March 24 2012 06:24 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:15 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:12 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case. it could be from his arrest for suspected resisting arrest a few years prior. but he was pacing back and forth right after the shooting, he didn't need to be hospitalized for sure. oftentimes they make you be taken to the hospital for an examination and then release you right after which is probably the extent of his hospitalization. I cannot believe it if he had injuries, and police didn't document them with pictures, hard evidence. People need to be fired and not just the police cheif. That's the real problem. They didn't investigate the crime scene or call in CSI (whatever the real version of that is), so all the ballistic evidence, the blood splatter, the fresh wound and powder patterns on Martin's body etc are all gone. No matter what happens, unless someone comes forward, Zimmerman will never be convicted and we'll never have hard evidence of what actually happened. Dont bring TV shows into this. Ballistic evidence can be determined from the body, which is turn predicts blood splatter. If he took hits from Zimmerman they will be on the body. What if his body shows no signs of being hit?
Don't be retarded. This has nothing to do with TV shows. The crime scene was not properly investigated for a homicide because the police took Zimmerman's word too fast.
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On March 24 2012 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point.
Bullet went through his chest, and Zimmerman cant shoot people from underground.
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On March 24 2012 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point.
There's this thing called gravity...
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On March 24 2012 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point.
Sounds like he was shot while standing and punching or grappling with Zimmerman, then feel forward and his hands were caught under his falling body. That or he was standing and instinctively reached for the wound when shot, which lead to his hands being trapped under his body when he fell.
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On March 24 2012 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point.
sigh. that was where his body was when the cops arrived. it doesnt mean that the body wasnt moved before they arrived. if the kid was shot in the back then definitely we have something to talk about, but i thought he was shot in the front. do you have something saying he was shot in the back? because i would love to see it since i cant find the autopsy report.
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On March 24 2012 06:28 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:26 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 24 2012 06:16 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:13 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 24 2012 06:03 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. You're confused. The person you are referring to is one of the two roommates he mentions who did not see anything until after the shot was fired. Actually they were watching through the window before they came outside. But they weren't watching anything until after the gun shot. She even says she had no idea Zimmerman was the shooter. Please try to keep up. You are the one that needs to keep up. I seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Most of my posts now are just correcting people like you who continue to say things which are downright false. She did not see the altercation before the shooting. She did not see the shooting. She "witnessed" only Zimmerman over the body which is completely consistent with both Zimmerman and the eyewitness John's account of events.
Your posts haven't been correcting people. Your posts have been completely dismissing people that bring up anything that contradicts your fantasy of what you think happened. You've shown willfull ignorance of others in the thread, constantly reposting your old evidence and disregarding any new evidence that comes up. You're quite a dedicated troll.
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Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went.
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On March 24 2012 06:38 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:28 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:26 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 24 2012 06:16 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:13 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 24 2012 06:03 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 05:50 cz wrote:
From what I can summarize from the witnesses, there are three people in total who witnessed it:
1) A man who says he saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten by Zimmerman. Claims that Zimmerman was crying for help. This happened before the shooting (just a little bit).
2) Two roommates. They didn't see it but heard someone crying out, and the crying stopped after the gunshot. They say it was high-pitched crying.
The rest is conjecture from the witnesses, but that's apparently what they can say on the witness stand. there is another witness who saw zimmerman straddling martin right after the gunshot. but besides that yeah thats the summary. oh yeah the person who saw zimmerman on top was the person who lived in the house who martin was shot in front of. You're confused. The person you are referring to is one of the two roommates he mentions who did not see anything until after the shot was fired. Actually they were watching through the window before they came outside. But they weren't watching anything until after the gun shot. She even says she had no idea Zimmerman was the shooter. Please try to keep up. You are the one that needs to keep up. I seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Most of my posts now are just correcting people like you who continue to say things which are downright false. She did not see the altercation before the shooting. She did not see the shooting. She "witnessed" only Zimmerman over the body which is completely consistent with both Zimmerman and the eyewitness John's account of events. Your posts haven't been correcting people. Your posts have been completely dismissing people that bring up anything that contradicts your fantasy of what you think happened. You've shown willfull ignorance of others in the thread, constantly reposting your old evidence and disregarding any new evidence that comes up. You're quite a dedicated troll.
The post you are quoting is entirely correct though.
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On March 24 2012 06:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:01 BillClinton wrote:
Do you really want to live in a place where whenever you feel threatened for whatever reason you (and others) pull your gun(s)?
Even if Martin was a dealer how can you argue it was good that he was killed, it will lead to more mutual suspicion and lower the inhibition level for aggression/crime. Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you. Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner.
.... Running from someone who is willing to shoot at you is pretty stupid. They were outside, it doesn't matter how many corners you turn.
Edit: I'm not saying thats what happened. But if Tray did know about the gun, he wouldn't really have any more reason to retreat than he would to be aggresive.
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On March 24 2012 06:12 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case.
Its not a mugshot. Its just a picture of zimmerman wearing an orange shirt. I wonder why they would use a picture like that?
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On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went.
may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes?
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On March 24 2012 06:36 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:34 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 06:27 cz wrote:On March 24 2012 06:24 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:15 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:12 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case. it could be from his arrest for suspected resisting arrest a few years prior. but he was pacing back and forth right after the shooting, he didn't need to be hospitalized for sure. oftentimes they make you be taken to the hospital for an examination and then release you right after which is probably the extent of his hospitalization. I cannot believe it if he had injuries, and police didn't document them with pictures, hard evidence. People need to be fired and not just the police cheif. That's the real problem. They didn't investigate the crime scene or call in CSI (whatever the real version of that is), so all the ballistic evidence, the blood splatter, the fresh wound and powder patterns on Martin's body etc are all gone. No matter what happens, unless someone comes forward, Zimmerman will never be convicted and we'll never have hard evidence of what actually happened. Dont bring TV shows into this. Ballistic evidence can be determined from the body, which is turn predicts blood splatter. If he took hits from Zimmerman they will be on the body. What if his body shows no signs of being hit? Don't be retarded. This has nothing to do with TV shows. The crime scene was not properly investigated for a homicide because the police took Zimmerman's word too fast.
.... but I said that TV shows didnt have anything to do with it.
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