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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes?
It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was.
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On March 24 2012 06:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you. Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner. .... Running from someone who is willing to shoot at you is pretty stupid. They were outside, it doesn't matter how many corners you turn. Edit: I'm not saying thats what happened. But if Tray did know about the gun, he wouldn't really have any more reason to retreat than he would to be aggresive.
Guessing how someone would respond to a gun being pointed in their face is all conjecture. You have no idea how he would react or even how you would react. Logic goes right out the window.
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On March 24 2012 06:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:04 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
Do you really want to live in a place where if you are pinned on the ground being beaten in the head you are not allowed to use a firearm to save your life? You got it backwards, Zaqwe. Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life? Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed. Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you. Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner. .... Running from someone who is willing to shoot at you is pretty stupid. They were outside, it doesn't matter how many corners you turn. Edit: I'm not saying thats what happened. But if Tray did know about the gun, he wouldn't really have any more reason to retreat than he would to be aggresive.
What? You run around one corner and unless they are 'wallhackin IRL' you're fairly safe. His GF says that Martin asked why he was following him and that Zimmerman asked what he was doing here. Would you turn aggressive after being asked that?
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On March 24 2012 06:41 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:12 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Is that mugshot of Zimmerman from right after the incident? His face looks pretty good for being "hospitalized" if thats the case. Its not a mugshot. Its just a picture of zimmerman wearing an orange shirt. I wonder why they would use a picture like that?
It is a mugshot from 2005. Some media outlets have adjusted the brightness and contrast on it to make Zimmerman look lighter skinned but the original unaltered mugshot is still up on the Miami Herald website.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706141/trayvon-martins-shooter-had-a.html
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On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was.
i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy.
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On March 24 2012 06:44 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
You got it backwards, Zaqwe.
Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life?
Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed.
Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you. Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner. .... Running from someone who is willing to shoot at you is pretty stupid. They were outside, it doesn't matter how many corners you turn. Edit: I'm not saying thats what happened. But if Tray did know about the gun, he wouldn't really have any more reason to retreat than he would to be aggresive. What? You run around one corner and unless they are 'wallhackin IRL' you're fairly safe. His GF says that Martin asked why he was following him and that Zimmerman asked what he was doing here. Would you turn aggressive after being asked that?
Any person who doesn't have anything to hide would just say I went out to get some snacks for my little brother show them to him and just keep walking. I bet this situation happenes a hundred times a week and nothing bad ever happenes.
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On March 24 2012 06:42 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 24 2012 06:29 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:25 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:20 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:06 Defacer wrote:On March 24 2012 05:30 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 05:20 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
You got it backwards, Zaqwe.
Do you really want to live in a place where someone can follow you, pull a gun on you, and you're not allowed to attack in order to save your life?
Despite some ambiguity, it's very, very clear that Zimmerman was a greater threat to Trayvon than the other way around. Trayon posed absolutely no threat until Zimmerman created a confrontation while armed.
Zimmerman didn't pull a gun on him. If Trayvon was aware of the gun he wouldn't have left Zimmerman's hands free holding a gun to shoot him with. When Trayvon decided to attack Zimmerman he obviously was not aware of the pistol. You have no way of knowing whether or not Zimmerman pulled a gun first. Your entire argument has been based on your fantasy of how the altercation developed, and a single, inconclusive, eyewitness account. I just offered the idea that "Zimmerman pulled a gun first" as an entirely plausible scenario that would easily rationalize Trayvon attacking or fighting back. You literally don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. And the fact that you dismiss a perfectly plausible scenario despite arguing based on personal speculation betrays your hypocrisy and bias. TLDR: you just got served. It's extremely implausible that Zimmerman pulled out a gun, Trayvon then attacked him and punched him in the face ignoring the gun and allowing Zimmerman to shoot him. That's just preposterous. But if he did, you'd absolutely agree that Trayon was simply defending himself, no? Or else that would make you a hypocrite. And it's not preposterous at all. You've obviously never been in a real fight. It's not a choreographed Jackie Chan movie where A leads to B leads to C. Neither Zimmerman or Trayon are MMA fighters with training on how to disarm someone. It's a chaotic mess. Sigh, at least I know now that if I draw a gun on Zaqwe, he'll just stand there and let himself get shot. It doesn't take any training to know that if you are fighting a guy who is holding a gun you struggle for the gun, not punch him in the face and leave his hand free, holding a gun, and allowing him to shoot you. Really your scenario is just so detached from reality I don't know what to say that could bring you back to Earth. Why would you punch someone in the face who you know is holding a gun, ignoring the gun, and letting them shoot you? There's no coherent logical reason to claim Zimmerman pulled out a gun until he was already on the ground being beaten in the head. You're making stuff up, and you're not even trying to have your fabricated story make any sense. Running from someone that is holding a gun doesn't make sense either. HELLO they can still shoot you. Guns dont have infinite range. Over course you could run away and get stuff between you and the gun. Maybe even turn a corner. .... Running from someone who is willing to shoot at you is pretty stupid. They were outside, it doesn't matter how many corners you turn. Edit: I'm not saying thats what happened. But if Tray did know about the gun, he wouldn't really have any more reason to retreat than he would to be aggresive. Guessing how someone would respond to a gun being pointed in their face is all conjecture. You have no idea how he would react or even how you would react. Logic goes right out the window.
Thanks for supporting my statement...
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On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy.
Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence.
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On March 24 2012 06:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:It also said that martin's body was face down with martins hand underneath him. Which is a completely non threatening pose. definitely shooting someone who is in that position makes no sense, so if he shot martin in that position I feel he could no longer claim self defense since he had clearly subdued martin at that point. sigh. that was where his body was when the cops arrived. it doesnt mean that the body wasnt moved before they arrived. if the kid was shot in the back then definitely we have something to talk about, but i thought he was shot in the front. do you have something saying he was shot in the back? because i would love to see it since i cant find the autopsy report.
autopsy report hasn't been released yet. not sure what legal grounds an autopsy report could be withheld. because he is a minor? i dunno.
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On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence.
okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do.
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On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do.
we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on.
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On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on.
i have heard the allegation that they made suggestions to witnesses. (not sure if that is coercion, but whatever.) i believe the witnesses themselves said that.
i have also heard the allegation that they gave the kid a drug test, but not zimmerman. not sure how people know that without the autopsy report, but whatever. maybe they had to disclose it to the parents.
what is it that they didnt do or did that made no sense? i am looking for actual specifics you can support, not conjecture.
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I just think, listening to the 911 calls, Zimmerman is a paranoid mentally ill person or too caught up in his implicit bias about black youth (and likely makes racist conclusions). I think it's fucked up to somehow position Trayvon as the aggressor no matter what altercation went down, seeing as Zimmerman left his car, engaged in active pursuit and aggravated the situation. Especially when the dispatcher advised him against that.* If any party was acting in self defense, it would be Trayvon. If Trayvon had a gun and shot Zimmerman, then yes Florida's self-defense law would be applicable here but I can't not imagine how this isn't murder of 2nd degree. Not to mention, Zimmerman's original story to the police was a lie.
However, I think mostly what angers people is the lack of due process and general fuck up of the police. I think they were aware of the potential shitstorm of a story like this but it's a shame to hear of them coercing witnesses.
* ps. someone earlier pointed out the distinction between "we don't need you to do that" and a more direct command "don't do that," and how the wording makes a "big difference" or whatever. That's pretty much horse shit. The dispatcher phrased it that way to be more colloquial and less confrontational, and couldn't foresee the actions that were about to occur, and certainly didn't know Zimmerman was carrying a weapon (in that case, I think she would've been more direct, sensing the danger). It takes a particularly irrational person to disobey when somebody expresses volition like that. How many people do you know, upon hearing "we don't need you do to that" with such a tone, don't listen or respond?
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On March 24 2012 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on. i have heard the allegation that they made suggestions to witnesses. (not sure if that is coercion, but whatever.) i believe the witnesses themselves said that. i have also heard the allegation that they gave the kid a drug test, but not zimmerman. not sure how people know that without the autopsy report, but whatever. maybe they had to disclose it to the parents. what is it that they didnt do or did that made no sense? i am looking for actual specifics you can support, not conjecture.
besides witnesses saying the police tried to correct them, and witnesses saying the police refused to take a long statement when a witness wanted to provide one, i dunno what proof i can provide at this point.
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On March 24 2012 07:00 Chessz wrote:
I just think, listening to the 911 calls, Zimmerman is a paranoid mentally ill person or too caught up in his implicit bias about black youth (and likely makes racist conclusions). I think it's fucked up to somehow Trayvon as the aggressor no matter what altercation went down, seeing as Zimmerman left his car, engaged in active pursuit and aggravated the situation. Especially when the dispatcher advised him against that.* If any party was acting in self defense, it would be Trayvon. If Trayvon had a gun and shot Zimmerman, then yes Florida's self-defense law would be applicable here but I can't not imagine how this isn't murder of 2nd degree. Not to mention, Zimmerman's original story to the police was lie.
However, I think mostly what angers people is the lack of due process and general fuck up of the police. I think they were aware of the potential shitstorm of a story like this but it's a shame to hear of them coercing witnesses.
* ps. someone earlier pointed out the distinction between "we don't need you to do that" and a more direct command "don't do that," and how the wording makes a "big difference" or whatever. That's pretty much horse shit. The dispatcher phrased it that way to be more colloquial and less confrontational, and couldn't foresee the actions that were about to occur, and certainly didn't know Zimmerman was carrying a weapon (in that case, I think she would've been more direct, sensing the danger). It takes a particularly irrational person to disobey when somebody expresses volition like that. How many people do you know, upon hearing "we don't need you do to that" with such a tone, don't listen or respond?
To the racism thing, there isn't any evidence of that except for the disputed "coon" slur. It's important to note that he called the police and reported the guy as suspicious BEFORE he realized what the guys race was.
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On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on.
Nobody has ever claimed they saw Zimmerman attack Trayvon. Stop using outright lies to fuel your bandwagon.
A police officer told someone who thought the screaming was from Trayvon that it was actually Zimmerman who was screaming. A witness who saw the source of the screams identified Zimmerman as the one shouting for help, which matches Zimmerman's story that he was indeed shouting for help.
I don't see a problem with correcting someone who was mistaken.
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On March 24 2012 07:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on. i have heard the allegation that they made suggestions to witnesses. (not sure if that is coercion, but whatever.) i believe the witnesses themselves said that. i have also heard the allegation that they gave the kid a drug test, but not zimmerman. not sure how people know that without the autopsy report, but whatever. maybe they had to disclose it to the parents. what is it that they didnt do or did that made no sense? i am looking for actual specifics you can support, not conjecture. besides witnesses saying the police tried to correct them, and witnesses saying the police refused to take a long statement when a witness wanted to provide one, i dunno what proof i can provide at this point.
which is fine. i have been perusing articles looking for the "police misconduct," but all of them just refer to the fact that the police didn't arrest zimmerman.
edit: and something about a drug detective interviewing zimmerman or something.
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On March 24 2012 07:04 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on. Nobody has ever claimed they saw Zimmerman attack Trayvon. Stop using outright lies to fuel your bandwagon. A police officer told someone who thought the screaming was from Trayvon that it was actually Zimmerman who was screaming. A witness who saw the source of the screams identified Zimmerman as the one shouting for help, which matches Zimmerman's story that he was indeed shouting for help. I don't see a problem with correcting someone who was mistaken.
I think those witnesses are really biased by the media. They talk about hearing a boy's scream and thus are associating it with Martin. This is like 3 weeks after the shooting. Martin is at least 6 feet tall and is 17 years old: he isn't going to scream or shout like a boy. There's no reason to expect him to have a higher pitched voice than Zimmerman.
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On March 24 2012 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on. i have heard the allegation that they made suggestions to witnesses. (not sure if that is coercion, but whatever.) i believe the witnesses themselves said that. i have also heard the allegation that they gave the kid a drug test, but not zimmerman. not sure how people know that without the autopsy report, but whatever. maybe they had to disclose it to the parents. what is it that they didnt do or did that made no sense? i am looking for actual specifics you can support, not conjecture.
In case you wanted the sources for those allegations again, here they are.
The police correcting a witness was confirmed by ABC news here
http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-chief-trayvon-martin-case-resigns-temporarily-amid/story?id=15977847#.T2y5oBGvKSo
The list of possible police missteps uncovered by ABC News is long: The department allegedly ignored some witnesses while failing to follow up with others. One officer "corrected" the testimony of an eye witness who said she heard "the boy," Martin, crying out; the officer allegedly told the witness that it was Zimmerman who was screaming for help.
Toxicology test on victim and not shooter here.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/v-fullstory/2706876/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html
[Sanford police spokesman Sgt. David Morgenstern] dismissed lawyers’ criticism that a drug test was conducted on Trayvon’s body but not on Zimmerman, saying toxicology tests are routine for a medical examiner conducting an autopsy, but uncommon for detectives conducting a homicide investigation.
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On March 24 2012 07:07 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 24 2012 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. we know some of what they didn't do, and it doesn't make sense that they did some of the things they did. like not letting witnesses fully give accounts. coercing other witnesses. "correcting" them if they mentioned they saw zimmerman attack martin. i mean there was a lot of pretty bad policework going on. Nobody has ever claimed they saw Zimmerman attack Trayvon. Stop using outright lies to fuel your bandwagon. A police officer told someone who thought the screaming was from Trayvon that it was actually Zimmerman who was screaming. A witness who saw the source of the screams identified Zimmerman as the one shouting for help, which matches Zimmerman's story that he was indeed shouting for help. I don't see a problem with correcting someone who was mistaken. I think those witnesses are really biased by the media. They talk about hearing a boy's scream and thus are associating it with Martin. This is like 3 weeks after the shooting. Martin is at least 6 feet tall and is 17 years old: he isn't going to scream or shout like a boy. There's no reason to expect him to have a higher pitched voice than Zimmerman.
This, the "kid" is well past puberty at 17 and Zimmerman is only in his 20's
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