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I think a large reason for the dearth of western talent is the secrecy behind the logistics and potential. Look at major western sports like Baseball, Football, Hockey, etc. Contracts, money, expectations, etc. are all out in the open. Growing up, you know that aiming for a professional career in one of these sports, you will make a livable income and there is sufficient interest to sustain the business model. Why in the E-sports scene is everything so hush and obfuscated? How can you expect players to train and play for the time it takes when they have no idea if it will pay off?
I also think the 'house' environment is pretty dumb logistically and monetarily to be honest. It is antiquated and borne from a country in which is smaller than most US states, and nearly homogenous. With technology now-a-days, and since SC2 is online-only, you can do everything from your own home that you can do getting everyone to move someplace together. Lots of businesses have tele-commutes and work from home for their employees. It makes so much sense for an online business to use this sort of cost-saving model.
In all honesty if folks want the foreign scene to produce great players to rival the Koreans and keep interest in the sport, I think a lot of folks in the business and players need to look to emulate and evolve successful organizations like MLB. It would also help to have more open tournaments and events to make a name for yourself. I'm not really a fan of invitationals to be honest. Even in Korea they have 'minor-leagues' for BW.
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Some Koreans want to go to foreign teams. The ones that are in foreign teams now ended there not because they were scouted, but on their own volition. I have been to Korea several times and I have seen face to face the young gamers. They are absolutely addicted, they eat breakfast lunch and dinner right on the spot while paying an hourly amount to the pc cafes. Foreign teams know this the most when recruiting and pick the youngest and the ones with the most potential. Axslav is skilled there is no doubt, but he is older, he doesn't put up results as much, and he has already had his chance with a big name team. For players getting kicked off, that is not an issue. A team has a contract with a player and if it ends, the player has full responsibility in knowing what will come of him or her whether it be renewed or replace. Esports may seem exciting and positive in the eyes of a viewer, but business is business. So no players don't get "kicked" off they get released after their full payment.
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the best foreigners could probably barely compete in Code A these days. Yeah, in the very first GSLs you had people like Jinro/Idra winning games and doing decently, but the Korean scene is so far ahead right now that it's practically unfathomable to imagine a foreigner winning a GSL or even maintaining his Code S slot. Huk is pretty much the only person in recent memory to be in GSL as a foreigner, and though I like him, it's pretty clear that he relied on the rather broken demotion system to stay afloat.
Liquid supports western talent. Not going to argue that. This whole thread is stupid, though, because teams should support the best players, and I can't think of more than 10 who are realistic contenders of getting into Code A/S.
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Aren't the teams in Korea providing their players housing, food, a computer and family atmosphere? They don't really need that much money because they already have their life set in that team with all that is provided for them. Money is not needed when your a pro-gamer because everything is given to you.
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Although I never played nor paid attention to WC3, this is great point.
And I think to to prevent these kind of situations, foreigners have to do really great job on winning every tournaments.
Like GSL, MLG, etc., because company look for good players rather than potential players. Some of them, yes, but most of them no. I hope SC2 scene doesnt end up like WC3. Thanks for pointing out.
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On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum.
I dont think anyone would contest the amazing front-runner role of Liquid at the beginning of sc2 era, setting up the partnership with OGS and recruiting the hottest players quickly.
However, as a Liquid fan, i definitely agree that the international teams and organizations shifted towards the Korean players, and Liquid is definitely no exception. The 2 latest additions are both Korean pros, one could argue Hero was an exception since he wasnt well known and TL said they wanted to be the first international team to recruit a Korean (they werent but doesnt matter), but Zenio was just another very good Korean who left a Korean team and joined an international one. Neither of them speaks English on the stage (aside from like 2 or 3 sentences per event)
And the thing is, they do get flown around a lot, more so than the others i dare say, i cant remember an event from the last few months without one of them (and at IEM Kiev they both were there and no other liquid player), and they also play in almost every team v team event.
Don't get me wrong, im not mad at them, i'm glad they are doing good and TL gave them this opportunity, and they repaying the organization with mostly good consistent performance. However, I am saddened that TL is not what it used to be, namely a Western team, representing the foreigner scene. I totally understand the reasons behind it, no team wants to fall behind.
The largest foreigner teams dont pick up good foreigners anymore, unless some special circumstances, that's a fact
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On March 03 2012 23:39 Cybren wrote:
SC2 doesn't need many snakes, it needs several dragons
SC2 doesn't need many dragons, it needs several frost trolls.*
Fixed.
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This is pretty offensive, lol.
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On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum. edit: And just to be complete, Sheth is another great example of investing in western talent. He's had wonderful results since joining Liquid and has been very happy here and getting excellent support. He may even be a better example because at this time that we got him, we very well could have set our sights only on Korean players. But as is abundantly clear to everyone in the world but the OP, Liquid supports western talent.
The question is any foreign team, willing to support unproven up and coming western talent, not continue to support sub-par players from 2 years ago.
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What's up with that everytime I see a response from Tyler its REALLY aggressive? -_ -
And it's not like Liquid is the only team that has invested in ''western'' players, Mousesports if any team should have a saying here..
Good read OP, I agree with most parts
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On March 04 2012 00:57 Shiori wrote:
Liquid supports western talent. Not going to argue that. This whole thread is stupid, though, because teams should support the best players, and I can't think of more than 10 who are realistic contenders of getting into Code A/S.
That's not the counter-argument to OP's problem. It's the consequence. Why isn't there more foreign good players ? Because most foreign teams are beginning to invest less and less into foreign players.
Edit : orthography.
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On March 04 2012 01:10 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:57 Shiori wrote:
Liquid supports western talent. Not going to argue that. This whole thread is stupid, though, because teams should support the best players, and I can't think of more than 10 who are realistic contenders of getting into Code A/S. That's not the counter-argument to OP's problem. It's the consequence. Why isn't there mroe foreign good players ? Because most foreign teams are beginning to invest less and less into foreign players.
If I offer you a low risk investment with a guaranteed 50% interest rate starting today or a high risk investment with a 50% interest rate possibly beginning 10 years from now, what are you going to pick?
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I like how we are killing esports on a weekly basis  . Nah but seriously you bring up some interesting points. But I really think esports is growing as a whole nicely with the growth of streaming technolgy. I don't think it will die like wc 3 did. But part of wc 3 problem was that the player base died, people lost interest in that game. I don't see starcraft dying for at least 10 years because of the rate they are releasing expansions and if you think about it, MLG is bigger than ever in the states, and that alone helps keep games alive.
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On March 04 2012 01:08 Coal wrote:
What's up with that everytime I see a response from Tyler its REALLY aggressive? -_ -
And it's not like Liquid is the only team that has invested in ''western'' players, Mousesports if any team should have a saying here..
Good read OP, I agree with most parts
I have to disagree, most of Tyler's posts are really calm and fairly objective, or subtle and sarcastic. The one above is one of the first I did not like that much
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On March 04 2012 01:10 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:57 Shiori wrote:
Liquid supports western talent. Not going to argue that. This whole thread is stupid, though, because teams should support the best players, and I can't think of more than 10 who are realistic contenders of getting into Code A/S. That's not the counter-argument to OP's problem. It's the consequence. Why isn't there more foreign good players ? Because most foreign teams are beginning to invest less and less into foreign players. Edit : orthography.
Does any player even know how much the investment / contracts are (besides the obvious contractee...)? People become professionals in other sports because they know it pays well, and you can have a livable income, and as they grew up and probably still they enjoy / have fun while playing (but that doesn't trump income livability). So..., a lot of people in the foreign scene are probably a bit reticent in pursuit of being a professional. Obvious is obvious. People know how much Flash and Jaedong make, and other BW pros. This means that new players have incentive to become new Flashes and Jaedongs and know that they will be able to live and play the game. Why are contracts and monies never ever made open in the foreign scene and SC2 in general?
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Yeah if anyone should be offended(lol) it's Mousesports. TL is, and has been, supporting their players well but last 6 months they've shifted focus from the western scene to Korea, just like Fnatic, EG, coL plus several others. I'm sure it's a good business decision and I can't blame them for doing it but it sucks for the western scene in the long run when ALL the big teams are doing it. TL is definitely no exception to this.
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On March 04 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 01:10 ArcticRaven wrote:On March 04 2012 00:57 Shiori wrote:
Liquid supports western talent. Not going to argue that. This whole thread is stupid, though, because teams should support the best players, and I can't think of more than 10 who are realistic contenders of getting into Code A/S. That's not the counter-argument to OP's problem. It's the consequence. Why isn't there mroe foreign good players ? Because most foreign teams are beginning to invest less and less into foreign players. If I offer you a low risk investment with a guaranteed 50% interest rate starting today or a high risk investment with a 50% interest rate possibly beginning 10 years from now, what are you going to pick?
Depends if I'm just interested in making the most money possible and run away or make the scene durable. If you have only korean players things will die out quite quickly, and your investment will be dead anyway.
Yeah if anyone should be offended(lol) it's Mousesports. TL is, and has been, supporting their players well but last 6 months they've shifted focus from the western scene to Korea, just like Fnatic, EG, coL plus several others. I'm sure it's a good business decision and I can't blame them for doing it but it sucks for the western scene in the long run when ALL the big teams are doing it. TL is definitely no exception to this.
Millenium isn't a big team ?
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On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum. edit: And just to be complete, Sheth is another great example of investing in western talent. He's had wonderful results since joining Liquid and has been very happy here and getting excellent support. He may even be a better example because at this time that we got him, we very well could have set our sights only on Korean players. But as is abundantly clear to everyone in the world but the OP, Liquid supports western talent.
You should spend less time on the forums and more time practicing, "When I do make a significant impact on the scene" first you should stop worrying about what other people say when they're just generalizing, second you have to actually accomplish something and ever since sc2 came out, you surely haven't done any justice. I would love for you to prove me wrong, but I doubt that you will do anything special this year based off previous tournaments and practice dedication.
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On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum. edit: And just to be complete, Sheth is another great example of investing in western talent. He's had wonderful results since joining Liquid and has been very happy here and getting excellent support. He may even be a better example because at this time that we got him, we very well could have set our sights only on Korean players. But as is abundantly clear to everyone in the world but the OP, Liquid supports western talent.
I think you are massively overreacting. What forum if not TL should he have posted it on?
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On March 04 2012 01:19 lowreezy08 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum. edit: And just to be complete, Sheth is another great example of investing in western talent. He's had wonderful results since joining Liquid and has been very happy here and getting excellent support. He may even be a better example because at this time that we got him, we very well could have set our sights only on Korean players. But as is abundantly clear to everyone in the world but the OP, Liquid supports western talent. You should spend less time on the forums and more time practicing, "When I do make a significant impact on the scene" first you should stop worrying about what other people say when they're just generalizing, second you have to actually accomplish something and ever since sc2 came out, you surely haven't done any justice. I would love for you to prove me wrong, but I doubt that you will do anything special this year based off previous tournaments and practice dedication.
I don't consider Tyler a Liquid player anymore, more of a community figure we see whenever SOTG is on. Although we don't know what he does behind the scenes for Liquid.
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EPT
