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On March 03 2012 23:57 StarStruck wrote:
Axslav struggles to find a team because of his results.
I wouldn't call it square one. It's called reality. The better players will get picked up and Koreans are easy pickings based on the fact they struggle to get any support in Korea. -_-
Most "code-b" level players that are on foreign teams haven't really got any results either.
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Great writeup, awesome job bro! These kinds of stuff are really interesting to read!
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On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote + no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean?
The last 2 players TL have picked up are both Korean. I believe all of the latest foreign team player signings have all been Korean.
Korean players are far better and far cheaper.
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Should teams really go out of their way to put more money into lesser skilled players just because he/she happens to be born in the same country the team is situated in? I mean, sure. I see your point that a global scene can only benefit from (and maybe is only sustainable with) local heros, but is throwing money at the local playerbase really the right way to obtain such a figure? I think what they need is primarily more opportunities and not more money, if that makes sense.
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He’s financially cheaper, and he’s very well on par with the code b Koreans that so many NA teams are recruiting.
This is far fetched. Axslav isn't on the same level as Code B Koreans by a longshot. That is essientially the same as saying he is on the same skill level as Sase, Naniwa, Huk, Idra, Morrow, and Select. Remember, no foreigner has ever qualified out of code b. Also, Axslav is 26. Sleep, Violet, PuMa, Crazymovin, Rain and Golden; all code B koreans, are under 20. Youth will never come back for Axslav. These players have lots of potential and probably more experience than Axslav. But most importantly, will play for lower salaries. These young Koreans are not asking for much after coming off a whooping salary of $0 with korean teams.
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I think this is an interesting idea, specifically the finances behind e-sports, especially coming off the back of the PPV MLG event.
I think there is a bit of a dichotomy in that tournaments seem to be running at a loss, while running tournaments which realistically could cost almost nothing to run. For example, SC2 can be played online, removing travel and accommodation costs, games are automatically recorded, so no costs there.
Besides the costs to actually film, produce and stream the tournaments, the main costs seem to be players and casters, and perhaps the scene simply isn't large enough yet to support what people are getting paid.
This isn't a criticism of anyone involved, you have to make hay while the sun shines, but time will tell how sustainable the scene will be.
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I can see teams picking up koreans to improve practice for their roster overall and that's not a problem I feel, but picking up koreans solely for results might be in the long run. Personally I prefer games with europeans/americans and not KorVSKor only games.
I don't know, but do the european/american TL players really profit from Hero and Zenio being on TL? Do you really train together on a daily / weekly basis, or does that not happen that often, because of the distance?
How about EG? They've set up a nice training house in the US and what happens? All the "championship-winning" players leave for korea and then Puma and Huk only drop by if a tournament is close, to get used to the different timezones. How much do these players profit from having koreans on their teams? How does Machine for instance profit in terms of practice when Puma, Huk etc. are in Korea not being in the house and playing with the players there?
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On March 04 2012 00:10 Eee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 23:57 StarStruck wrote:
Axslav struggles to find a team because of his results.
I wouldn't call it square one. It's called reality. The better players will get picked up and Koreans are easy pickings based on the fact they struggle to get any support in Korea. -_- Most "code-b" level players that are on foreign teams haven't really got any results either.
While I think most of your post is sound Code B level Koreans are a lot better than most foreign top players. I agree that we need to invest in foreign talent though or the casual interest will decrease. For me personally I just want to watch the best and I'd watch Genius vs DRG over HuK vs IdrA any day.
The whole problem is that most foreigners are bad and lazy (compared to koreans) and therefor not worth investing in.
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On March 04 2012 00:18 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +He’s financially cheaper, and he’s very well on par with the code b Koreans that so many NA teams are recruiting. This is far fetched. Axslav isn't on the same level as Code B Koreans by a longshot. That is essientially the same as saying he is on the same skill level as Sase, Naniwa, Huk, Idra, Morrow, and Select. Remember, no foreigner has ever qualified out of code b. Also, Axslav is 26. Sleep, Violet, PuMa, Crazymovin, Rain and Golden; all code B koreans, are under 20. Youth will never come back for Axslav. These players have lots of potential and probably more experience than Axslav. But most importantly, will play for lower salaries. These young Koreans are not asking for much after coming off a whooping salary of $0 with korean teams.
Hmm yes you are right, I meant players like Yong, REAL, Artist, HwangSin etc. who are playing on foreign teams. Maybe I should rephrase myself.
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With this axslav example you delivered your own counter-argument. Axlslav will never be a god of sc2. End of story. He had a lot of time to improve, he surely did a lot, but its simply not enough.
The problem is that there are imply no foreigners out there, that have what it takes to become a new sc2 star. This axlav example is just great for it. Hes good, when hes at his best, and lucky he might beat some code B or even A korean. But only sometimes. And he had a lot of time to deliver.
And where are the other foreigners to pick from? I dont see any. All good foreigners are already i well known teams, they have the chance to develop. The problem is that most of them dont take it seriously. They do it mainly for fun, after 1-2 years they know they will not be playing anymore, so why train 10 hours a day?
Its not the fault of the organisations, its simply the lack of talent. In Korea you simply have much more talent to chose from.
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On March 03 2012 23:39 Cybren wrote:
SC2 doesn't need many snakes, it needs several dragons
So wrong without snakes there will be no dragons.
In order for the sc2 scene to develop all the midtier players needs a living.
Just becuase Stephano,mma,drg,mvp,polt,Idra,nestea makes alot of money doesnt mean we actually got a healthy environment.
99% of the players can barely support themself a player like Bling had to get a personal sponsorships from TB so he can focus 100% on sc2. And he is pretty wellknown..
So the community better start doing something or els we wont have much of a sport in a few years
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
I think the problem isn't that foreign teams are investing loads of money into Korean players, it's that the Korean teams aren't. There seems to be a huge lack of investment and sponsorship in the Korean SC2 scene, maybe it's because BW is still so popular there, but having most of the players living off tournament winnings only means that most Korean players who get offered a salary from a foreign team are going to take it.
As for foreign teams investing in upcoming foreign players it definitely happens, look at dBling for example an ex-Halo player that Dignitas have supported and now is really starting to be successful. I actually think having a couple of Korean players on a foreign team helps them, with practice and having a greater appeal to sponsors so that the money can be invested into newer players as well who wouldn't attract the sponsorship money on their own.
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Millenium sounds like a good example. Stephano was a pure Millenium product, and now Feast is up & coming. No, I don't think every team is that way, mouz and Millenium being prime examples.
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Really enjoyed reading it and i am looking forward to part two.
On the idea that foreign teams are picking up Korean players; teams need results to keep their sponsors, and the people who keep getting results are the Koreans.
On March 04 2012 00:21 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:10 Eee wrote:On March 03 2012 23:57 StarStruck wrote:
Axslav struggles to find a team because of his results.
I wouldn't call it square one. It's called reality. The better players will get picked up and Koreans are easy pickings based on the fact they struggle to get any support in Korea. -_- Most "code-b" level players that are on foreign teams haven't really got any results either. While I think most of your post is sound Code B level Koreans are a lot better than most foreign top players. I agree that we need to invest in foreign talent though or the casual interest will decrease. For me personally I just want to watch the best and I watch Genius vs DRG over HuK vs IdrA any day. The whole problem is that most foreigners are bad and lazy (compared to koreans) and therefor not worth investing in.
Most foreigners don't take the game as seriously as Koreans do (then again it is comparing the entire world to a single country). You just can't tell everyone who plays SC2 to take the game seriously, just like how everyone can't watch SC2 for just "high level of play".
I'm really interest in why people actually watch Starcraft. Is it because of high level of play? Or maybe a player they like is in a tournament?
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On March 04 2012 00:22 krisss wrote:
With this axslav example you delivered your own counter-argument. Axlslav will never be a god of sc2. End of story. He had a lot of time to improve, he surely did a lot, but its simply not enough.
The problem is that there are imply no foreigners out there, that have what it takes to become a new sc2 star. This axlav example is just great for it. Hes good, when hes at his best, and lucky he might beat some code B or even A korean. But only sometimes. And he had a lot of time to deliver.
And where are the other foreigners to pick from? I dont see any. All good foreigners are already i well known teams, they have the chance to develop. The problem is that most of them dont take it seriously. They do it mainly for fun, after 1-2 years they know they will not be playing anymore, so why train 10 hours a day?
Its not the fault of the organisations, its simply the lack of talent. In Korea you simply have much more talent to chose from.
That's the problem with organisations, they're to lazy to find the talent. Naniwa, Elfi and ThorZaIN where all young strong players in wc3, but nobody ever wanted to take the risk to support them. Now look at them at sc2? Dignitas dared to take the risk to sign Naniwa and actually send him arround the world, and today he's one of the best foreign players in the world! Dignitas also did take the risk to dare to sign a halo player who won an british tournament, and look at Bling now?
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On March 04 2012 00:26 ArcticRaven wrote:
Millenium sounds like a good example. Stephano was a pure Millenium product, and now Feast is up & coming. No, I don't think every team is that way, mouz and Millenium being prime examples.
how is stephano a pure millenium product? Didn't they say that he was the best EU players before he joined Mill???
And how exactly does Mouz support their players better than other Teams?
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On March 04 2012 00:28 Eee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:22 krisss wrote:
With this axslav example you delivered your own counter-argument. Axlslav will never be a god of sc2. End of story. He had a lot of time to improve, he surely did a lot, but its simply not enough.
The problem is that there are imply no foreigners out there, that have what it takes to become a new sc2 star. This axlav example is just great for it. Hes good, when hes at his best, and lucky he might beat some code B or even A korean. But only sometimes. And he had a lot of time to deliver.
And where are the other foreigners to pick from? I dont see any. All good foreigners are already i well known teams, they have the chance to develop. The problem is that most of them dont take it seriously. They do it mainly for fun, after 1-2 years they know they will not be playing anymore, so why train 10 hours a day?
Its not the fault of the organisations, its simply the lack of talent. In Korea you simply have much more talent to chose from. That's the problem with organisations, they're to lazy to find the talent. Naniwa, Elfi and ThorZaIN where all young strong players in wc3, but nobody ever wanted to take the risk to support them. Now look at them at sc2? Dignitas dared to take the risk to sign Naniwa and actually send him arround the world, and today he's one of the best foreign players in the world! Dignitas also did take the risk to dare to sign a halo player who won an british tournament, and look at Bling now?
Laziness isn't the problem. You have excellent Korean players coming to you, there is no need to look for players.
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Western teams might be more financially suitable to sponsor as I think the fans are more likely to buy more. Also the players are a bigger face in the community, not just skill level wise. I do think eventually teams and leagues will start disappearing as I dont think all these leagues can support itself in the long run. I think as long as people keep being figure heads in the community and the community keeps doing things to show sponsors that we care, we should be fine
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Would you rather sponsor a korean kid who sees sc2 as his job and lives in a team house or a kinda good foreign player who goes to uni and plays some sc2 when he has time. ?
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On March 04 2012 00:03 Eee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 23:57 StarStruck wrote:
Axslav struggles to find a team because of his results.
I wouldn't call it square one. It's called reality. The better players will get picked up and Koreans are easy pickings based on the fact they struggle to get any support in Korea. -_- But how does the Korean teams react to this? the feel forces to send their players to foreign events. It's almost the same scenario as in wc3. mYm has insane salaries = the other teams were forces to give insane salaries to their players so they wouldnt leave And in sc2: Foreign teams can send players to events = Koreans teams are now forced to send their players overseas so they wont lose them. For example, look at TSL at this moment they dont really have any sponsors beside handsomenerd.com, but coach lee is paying out of his own pocket (he owns pc bangs in korea) to send polt to Assembly, Lonestar clash and MLG Columbus (Where he's also sending Inori and Symbol).
Well aware of MYM problems. They did have a BW team after all (it was my friend's team btw).
Just look at what's happened with partnerships. It is incredibly difficult for Korean teams to compete with the Western organizations when they struggle to find sponsors right out of the gate. The West teams had a leg up from the beginning because they were already established teams who have plenty of sponsors. They've been in the industry for a long, long time no matter the game.
They've already reacted. Look at what happened with fOu. They're now a division of FXOpen. That's how the cookie crumbles. The Korean teams have become assets. There are only a few Korean teams remaining who aren't tied to some Western organization.
Considering they aren't supported by KeSPA is a big a deal. They had to look elsewhere.
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EPT
