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Are we killing esports? [part 1] - Page 10

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sky`380
Profile Joined January 2011
United States49 Posts
March 03 2012 19:37 GMT
#181
Are Starcraft 2 contracts similar to major league sports contracts? For example, you get a guaranteed sum of money and, if you perform well, you get incentives (i.e. bonuses)? Or do tournament winnings take the place of those incentives?
EienShinwa
Profile Joined May 2010
United States655 Posts
March 03 2012 19:38 GMT
#182
I think it's becoming more about money than e-sports itself. The romanticized dream of being a progamer is caring nothing but gaming 24/7, improving, winnning the big tournaments, and making a name for yourself (an icon) to inspire fellow gamers. In reality, it's a tough struggle to even make a living, with little to no satisfaction in it unless you can get first place (which is why I believe more and more progamers are streaming, for some sort of recognition/side money). Furthermore, with the Korean scene being incredibly hard to make a name for yourself without being the top, the code b players are coming over to the foreign teams, who usually have bigger salaries, easier to compete in, and have less hardcore schedules(debatable). When money is introduced, everything just becomes corrupt.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
March 03 2012 19:41 GMT
#183
OP doesn't mention or acknowledge Liquids efforts. Agree with Tyler wholeheartedly. A post in the General section questioning Liquid's investment in foreign talent (which is unwarranted and false) is probably not a great idea.


Should've been a blog post. Beyond Liquid's efforts however, I agree with most of the OP
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Blennd
Profile Joined April 2011
United States266 Posts
March 03 2012 19:44 GMT
#184
On March 04 2012 03:39 Zrana wrote:
This thread is so fucking weird.

Everyone is like "it's westerners vs koreans" and thinking that westerners don't want to watch koreans play.

Maybe that's true of Johnny Bronzeleaguer who thinks that koreans just play mindlessly or cheesy but most people just want to watch good starcraft. I don't give a crap what country the player i'm watching comes from as long as he shows good games.

Why are so many people obsessed with making esports big in the western world? If it happens at all it's going to be a very gradual process. Would you enjoy starcraft more if more people in your country watched it? If so, that seems oddly racsist. Just enjoy the game, please.


Wanting to enjoy a sport without being shunned by the mainstream of your society is racist? Wanting the thing you enjoy to also be enjoyed by at least some of the people who are culturally, geographically, and linguistically close to you is racist? Is going to a barcraft racist?

So sick of the attitude that equates wanting the foreign scene to grow with hating koreans.
jj33
Profile Joined April 2011
802 Posts
March 03 2012 19:46 GMT
#185
On March 04 2012 04:44 Blennd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2012 03:39 Zrana wrote:
This thread is so fucking weird.

Everyone is like "it's westerners vs koreans" and thinking that westerners don't want to watch koreans play.

Maybe that's true of Johnny Bronzeleaguer who thinks that koreans just play mindlessly or cheesy but most people just want to watch good starcraft. I don't give a crap what country the player i'm watching comes from as long as he shows good games.

Why are so many people obsessed with making esports big in the western world? If it happens at all it's going to be a very gradual process. Would you enjoy starcraft more if more people in your country watched it? If so, that seems oddly racsist. Just enjoy the game, please.


Wanting to enjoy a sport without being shunned by the mainstream of your society is racist? Wanting the thing you enjoy to also be enjoyed by at least some of the people who are culturally, geographically, and linguistically close to you is racist? Is going to a barcraft racist?

So sick of the attitude that equates wanting the foreign scene to grow with hating koreans.


Oh please.

flip the situation, if Koreans were struggling and people made threads saying "let's help koreans" I bet you'd be in there laughing at them.

Danzo
Profile Joined March 2011
2820 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-03 19:48:16
March 03 2012 19:48 GMT
#186
Why is this in the General section? This is more of an opinion post and should put in the blog section.
Getting too old for this..
metbull
Profile Joined April 2011
United States404 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-03 19:49:09
March 03 2012 19:48 GMT
#187
thread title is misleading.
title should read "Are we killing foreign(er) esports? [Part 1]"
edit: and this is more of a blog
Eee
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden2712 Posts
March 03 2012 19:49 GMT
#188
On March 04 2012 04:34 Gnarfle wrote:
A very interesting read! I am very much looking forward to part 2, maybe you can bring up a few exceptions or how you want teams to support up and coming talent?

Anyways, thanks for a great read

There's tons of online warriors out there. Today Nerchio and Stephano are the best zergs in EU probably, but a year ago they were just online warriors.

Blings story is a good example to, he was a former halo player and won the dignitas gamer search tournament, look at him today? He has a personal sponsorship from TB and is one of the most promising players in EU.

The Swedish National Championship (Known as e-sports SM in Sweden), if you look at the players 80% of them are teamless. And the only real progamer that has been able to qualify is Sjow, even though sponsored players like Merz, Bischu, HayprO, ThorZaIN and Lalush have participated, non of them qualified. So why hasn't even a lesser team signed these players?

France has just like Sweden their own local scene, these tournaments that are arranged by Llewellys, I bet it's the same situation there. Probably lots of young talented players that are teamless.

Eee
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden2712 Posts
March 03 2012 19:50 GMT
#189
On March 04 2012 04:48 metbull wrote:
thread title is misleading.
title should read "Are we killing foreign(er) esports? [Part 1]"
edit: and this is more of a blog

Did you read the op? because it does (although fairly little) discuss the korena scene.
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
March 03 2012 19:50 GMT
#190
I think saying any team with korean on it isn't supporting foreign talent is kinda bs.(Refering to the argument that the best players or all the lastest pick ups have been korean on foreign teams). Sure TL coL EG have all just picked up koreans. That doesn't mean that they still don't have foreigners that they support. It's just now they have players who will get their team more exposure(aka more sponsorship money) so they can continue to support the foreign players they have. Because it's really hard to get a corporation to give you money based on potential.

Not to mention complexity has a tournament where up and comers compete in who dont have a contract with a team and if they win, col with pay their way to mlg events. Sure it would be nice if everyone could have great salaries that you can live off but the scene has never been their in esports(foreign) to do that. Its always been the op couple teams with money to support their players and the rest can barely afford travel expenses for their players. At least now we have teams attempting to support up coming talent
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-03 19:52:22
March 03 2012 19:52 GMT
#191
Well it's true that korean are playing cheesy. Sorry but most of the best SC2 game yet came mostly from foreigners. Koreans game tend to go 2 or 3 base and then it's over.

I'm not racist saying that, let's say it's because of korea's meta...
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
m0ck
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
4194 Posts
March 03 2012 19:52 GMT
#192
TL certainly have invested in foreign players, and have stuck by the same players for a long time. But it is remarkable, that when TL went looking for talent for the team, they decided to sign to relatively unknown Koreans (and Sheth, who was returning from Korea after a bad experience). TL could have chosen to have signed promising and talented foreigners and helped them settle in Korea, but instead choose to go with (certainly at the time) mid-level Korean players that they knew from their collaboration with oGs. More than any other foreign team, TL was in a position to bring foreigners to Korea to train, and to bring in talent to the team to bring to Korea, but choose not to do so. Instead, they signed Sheth, who had no interest in living in Korea, and two Koreans, while only Jinro (and HuK) remained in Korea.
HardlyNever
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1258 Posts
March 03 2012 19:53 GMT
#193
The short answer is, the vast majority of foreigners aren't worth it, even in the long term. Most foreign up-and-comers are young kids with unrealistic expectations about being a pro gamer. Not only do you have to support them while they win nothing, you have to invest MORE money in the training and infrastructure required to get your team even training, much less competing, on the Korean level. Why do that when you can just recruit a Korean player, and fly them over ever month or 2?
Out there, the Kid learned to fend for himself. Learned to build. Learned to break.
Funkydonky
Profile Joined April 2011
950 Posts
March 03 2012 19:53 GMT
#194
On March 04 2012 04:28 Shelke14 wrote:
You know what this ties into? MLG

Hopefully everyone agreeing that the western scene needs more support, jumps on the MLG bandwagon and buys all their PPV. This is exactly what sundance is trying to push, a league where if you're teamless and talented, being a western will give you the chance to be 'all payed' for expense to MLG tournments.

Yea, because a lot of teamless and talented players were allowed to play in INVITE qualifiers for MLG arena.
Fact that a league is promoting an invite qualifier is just enough for me to not support it.
Favorite players: Stephano, Mana, Polt, Lucifron, Nerchio
marcesr
Profile Joined June 2008
Germany1383 Posts
March 03 2012 19:54 GMT
#195
On March 04 2012 04:41 Durp wrote:
OP doesn't mention or acknowledge Liquids efforts. Agree with Tyler wholeheartedly. A post in the General section questioning Liquid's investment in foreign talent (which is unwarranted and false) is probably not a great idea.


Should've been a blog post. Beyond Liquid's efforts however, I agree with most of the OP


Are you serious? He posted here because TL is by far the largest and by far the most important Starcraft forum.
So what you are saying is that you shouldnt post here if it could potentially hurt Liquids feelings?

Luckily an independent and unbiased discussion is still possible here.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
March 03 2012 19:55 GMT
#196
On March 04 2012 04:53 hrvoje07 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2012 04:28 Shelke14 wrote:
You know what this ties into? MLG

Hopefully everyone agreeing that the western scene needs more support, jumps on the MLG bandwagon and buys all their PPV. This is exactly what sundance is trying to push, a league where if you're teamless and talented, being a western will give you the chance to be 'all payed' for expense to MLG tournments.

Yea, because a lot of teamless and talented players were allowed to play in INVITE qualifiers for MLG arena.
Fact that a league is promoting an invite qualifier is just enough for me to not support it.

i'm pretty sure Axslav is happy MLG paid his way since Reign collapsed. Also MLG has stated multiple times the qualifiers will be open for future Arenas. They just wanted to control the first Arena as much as possible since it was a test.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
jj33
Profile Joined April 2011
802 Posts
March 03 2012 19:58 GMT
#197
On March 04 2012 04:52 WhiteDog wrote:
Well it's true that korean are playing cheesy. Sorry but most of the best SC2 game yet came mostly from foreigners. Koreans game tend to go 2 or 3 base and then it's over.

I'm not racist saying that, let's say it's because of korea's meta...



LOL you have no idea what you're talking about.

it's called strategy and mind games. back in bw there is no term as all in like it is used today.

the best games come from Koreans hahaha.

You probably think any game with early aggression is cheesey, you probaby just want 20 minutes of macro and 2 guys colliding 200 food armies.
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
March 03 2012 19:59 GMT
#198
Seriously guys, who the fuck cares what players the teams support. Either way it should be the best players. I want to see amazing matches not someone from my country that might play poorly. It just doesn't matter where you are from. If a player wants to be in an amazing team, he has got to play amazing games. Simple as that.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Roxor9999
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands771 Posts
March 03 2012 20:00 GMT
#199
On March 04 2012 04:48 metbull wrote:
thread title is misleading.
title should read "Are we killing foreign(er) esports? [Part 1]"
edit: and this is more of a blog

On March 04 2012 04:48 Danzo wrote:
Why is this in the General section? This is more of an opinion post and should put in the blog section.

On March 04 2012 04:41 Durp wrote:
OP doesn't mention or acknowledge Liquids efforts. Agree with Tyler wholeheartedly. A post in the General section questioning Liquid's investment in foreign talent (which is unwarranted and false) is probably not a great idea.


Should've been a blog post. Beyond Liquid's efforts however, I agree with most of the OP

Please read all responses in the thread before posting it's like the 5th time this blog stuff has been brought up.
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
March 03 2012 20:00 GMT
#200
in regards to the OP, wc3 did not die because of MYM. wc3 declined almost immediately after the dayfly scandal killed the league and sucked all the interest out of korea, which had the only established LAN league in the world. the sc2 media we are exposed to is exponentially bigger than what we had with wc3, and the death of the GSL would hamper, but not straight up kill the scene like it did with wc3.
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