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well one of the factors that ruined wc3 scene back then is that it's full of empty promises and broken dreams. People thinks doing esport is easy, organizations after organizations come and go. Even giant ones failed. Hope thats not the case for sc2.
And the info that hanari dude posted above doesnt fully reflect on the salary when wc3 was doing good aka 06-08. Iirc topnotch stars like Moon, Lyn, Lucifer got 5K-$10K per month, real good Koreans like some of the SK players got like 2k-4K. In total there were like 20+ Koreans that were kinda wellpaid, not to mention a special Chinese project called BET which was believed to pay way more.
Whats more ? Imbalance race, 8 years old mappool, sc2 surfacing etc. aka not something that is likely to happen to sc2.
So, I think the analogy drawn by OP is kinda bad. As long as the Korean scene lives, more orgs like TL, EG (not Reign lol), the sc2 scene will thrive
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On March 04 2012 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:06 Eee wrote:On March 04 2012 00:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: no one is willing to invest in the talent that is available in the western scene This is a slap in the face to Liquid. Why you would post this at teamliquid.net I cannot fathom. Really dumb or just really mean? I should edit that, but what I mean is that it is the current trend and majority are not doing it. Now TL is in first hand a community, not a team. If it were to be meant towards I would've made it clear. I haven't really written anything in the post that even hints towards TL, so I dont know why are feeling so hostile about it? Why would you say something so fucked up if you didn't even mean it? You're making even less sense now. TL.net is a community but Liquid obviously has close ties to it. You'll definitely find more Liquid fans at TL.net than anywhere else and more Liquid players posting at TL.net than anywhere else (and more than any other major team at TL.net). In other words, you could well expect that any significant post in the SC2 General section at TL.net is going to be read by Liquid. Now it can hardly be argued that Liquid hasn't invested heavily into non-Korean players. It's just a fact that Liquid went out of its way to get players fully supported and training in Korea ASAP and flying them all around the world to compete in every major tournament. Liquid was the team to pick up and put full support behind TLO after his beta stardom and Huk after his early MLG championship. Liquid supported Jinro Ret and Haypro and myself almost purely off our BW results. All of these players except myself have had amazing results and made significant positive impacts on the scene, except perhaps myself (and when I do, it'll be solely because of Liquid's support). So, we aren't a group of western talent? Were any of us a sure shot? Or could you say that Liquid and The Little App Factory stuck their necks WAY out to support western talent, to develop western talent, and to give western talent a chance to make a huge impact on the scene? And that it was successful? Somehow supporting two great people and players, Hero and Zenio, is supposed to make all that easily ignored? Somehow these acquisitions have reversed our trend despite the fact that we're still giving incredible support to western talent like we have been from day one? You are so absolutely wrong about this that I'm not sure how you could put a single bit of care into your thoughts before you shat them out all over this forum. edit: And just to be complete, Sheth is another great example of investing in western talent. He's had wonderful results since joining Liquid and has been very happy here and getting excellent support. He may even be a better example because at this time that we got him, we very well could have set our sights only on Korean players. But as is abundantly clear to everyone in the world but the OP, Liquid supports western talent.
Where should he post this if not Teamliquid? There really isn't anywhere else to post it... I don't see him hinting at TL in his post so why get so upset about it?
Liquids core was built around players who were known from BW already, do you want a badge for recruiting players who were already known from SC:BW? Nobody recruited Koreans in the start of SC2 because it wasn't really a sure shot back then neither, Koreans got interest in joining foreign teams quite recently when they noticed the salary differences and the easier tournament wins aswell as the energetic crowd. And now, when koreans DO have interest in joining foreign teams, Liquid coincidentially picks up Hero and Zenio?
Yeah, you picked up Sheth, he was known BEFORE you picked him up though, it's not like he was some random dude that you met on the street and decided to recruit for your team. Sheth had promising skills, a very kind personality which fit your team PERFECTLY, not only was it good for your teams PR but also good for your roster as he was already a good player. I'll use one of your arguments here; just because Sheth joined your team, does that erase all his earlier achievements?
You guys do support Western talent now aswell, clearly you're still on the team despite your lack of achievements in SC2. However, I have to ask myself, is it because you're a promising player or because Team Liquid is more of a family rather than a team that aims to become the top foreign team? I personally feel that all of you who got recruited because of your SC:BW achievements in the beginning of SC2 now get to stay in the team whether you show results or not, simply because you all have such tight bonds right now. I'm not saying that's wrong though.
The OP isn't arguing that TL has never been supportive of western talent, he's arguing that people are now losing interest in supporting western talent and when they do recruit new people now it's Koreans. Almost nobody picks up up-and-coming players these days, Millenium is a good example of the opposite; they had Stephano from the beginning and Feast is now up-and-coming.
It is abundantly clear to everyone but you that OPs post isn't directed towards TL.
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Well I agree to parts of it. Some parts I dont agree is....unlike wc3(no current expo packs)....sc2 has expansion packs like HoTS and LoTV which will keep the game fresh and live for another 4-5 yrs to come..which would mean more competition..also remember than in another 4-5 yrs some of the players who are well known might dip in performance, due to young talent rising.
Parts I agree with is the dumping of local talent for sub par koreans. And trust me, the thing i love about mouzsports is that, they dont have a korean (I dont think they have a NA player..bur i might b wrong) in their lineup. They have a solid EU roster, and they seem to outdo everyone in team leagues. The thing I love about liquid is that even though liquid has koreans, they never let go of their homegrown talent cause they believe in Jinro, Haypro, NoNy and everyone else..
Very well written blog... Loved it..cannot wait for your other blogs
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To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide.
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On March 04 2012 03:46 Ashes wrote:
Well I agree to parts of it. Some parts I dont agree is....unlike wc3(no current expo packs)....sc2 has expansion packs like HoTS and LoTV which will keep the game fresh and live for another 4-5 yrs to come..which would mean more competition..also remember than in another 4-5 yrs some of the players who are well known might dip in performance, due to young talent rising.
Parts I agree with is the dumping of local talent for sub par koreans. And trust me, the thing i love about mouzsports is that, they dont have a korean (I dont think they have a NA player..bur i might b wrong) in their lineup. They have a solid EU roster, and they seem to outdo everyone in team leagues. The thing I love about liquid is that even though liquid has koreans, they never let go of their homegrown talent cause they believe in Jinro, Haypro, NoNy and everyone else..
Very well written blog... Loved it..cannot wait for your other blogs
Sry, but could you please elaborate on the (by me) bolded part?
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On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide.
good- better players on average for teams, crap lazy foreigners thrown out
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People who disagree here are not really taking their time to think this trough. Excuse me, how many views had the SPL last time I saw it ? And yes, bw players are perhaps even better than sc2 ( they obviously have better mechanics and better training system ) so you would think ...
Host an MLG with top20 koreans ( constantly, after 3-4 editions ) and see how many viewers you get, most of the viewers will watch it because Husky is casting or because Day9 is casting or because Tastossis will be there, but in no way because they want to see the koreans play. I really enjoy bw ( haven't spent that much time looking at it, perhaps 3-4 games/week ) and I was a subscriber to GOMTV "back in the day". So the guys who will be watching MLG with top 20 koreans will mereley be hardcore fans. Can you hold a HomestoryCUP if only koreans atend ? No.
What teams need to do is get prohouses in SEA/NA/EU with 8-15 players and really start practicing. Milenium kinda did that with Stephano/Bling/Adelscot/Tarson and it seems to me that Stephano and Bling actually improved in this time ( and that with only 4 players, imagine with 8+ ). The problem is ( don't really know the financial issues ) that you'd probably need more money to invest in all the stuff...+ prohouse in korea exist also because all events are in korea so they wouldn't need to worry about travling for 1k$+ for each player and so and so...anyways...
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On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide.
Wow this is very useful information, thanks :O!
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I agree with big parts of the artice.
I really do think that most teams and tournaments underestimate how big of a problem the 'Korean invasion' is.
The best example is the Home Story Cup 4. A guy called Sound who noone has ever heard of before comes to the tournament, gets up to the finals beating a lot of foreign stars like Stephano and then?...then what?! No one has ever seen anything again from Sound since then.
If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft.
So if their favourite non Korean star just gets owned by a random Korean they have never heard of before they lose interest.
Koreans who prove themselves in the GSL and who are supported by their own teams can fly to international tournaments, but western tournaments and teams shouldnt pay for 'random' Koreans to come over because you drastically reduce the entertainment value.
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On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide.
its good. why? because the better players are getting the support.
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On March 04 2012 03:59 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide. its good. why? because the better players are getting the support.
The more koreans that join the less people will be watching in the west. Atleast that's what I think in the long run.
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On March 04 2012 03:57 marcesr wrote:
I agree with big parts of the artice.
I really do think that most teams and tournaments underestimate how big of a problem the 'Korean invasion' is.
The best example is the Home Story Cup 4. A guy called Sound who noone has ever heard of before comes to the tournament, gets up to the finals beating a lot of foreign stars like Stephano and then?...then what?! No one has ever seen anything again from Sound since then.
If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft.
So if their favourite non Korean star just gets owned by a random Korean they have never heard of before they lose interest.
Koreans who prove themselves in the GSL and who are supported by their own teams can fly to international tournaments, but western tournaments and teams shouldnt pay for 'random' Koreans to come over because you drastically reduce the entertainment value.
how does raising the quality of play reduce the entertainment value? How about instead of laying blame at bringing in Koreans, blame foreigners for not being as good.
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Still fail to see how recruiting koreans on a foreign team kills e-sports. If there's one thing I hate about posts on TL, it's making huge assumptions and provoking titles that aren't backed by sufficient evidence.
You're making erroneous assumptions that:
1. All the foreign teams will drop their foreign players for korean players
2. E-sports will die if there isn't a good ratio of foreigner to korean (How was BW doing pre-sc2 release? pretty damn good)
3. If sc2 dies, e-sports dies
4. Off of point 3, that e-sports is dependent/defined by sc2. That they're the same thing. THEY'RE NOT.
5. That there is an MYM equivalent in sc2
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On March 04 2012 04:00 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 03:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide. its good. why? because the better players are getting the support. The more koreans that join the less people will be watching in the west. Atleast that's what I think in the long run.
i think you are wrong. GSL has massive popularity among foreigners. MLG had incredible viewership because they brought over the best Koreans.
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On March 04 2012 04:01 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 03:57 marcesr wrote:
I agree with big parts of the artice.
I really do think that most teams and tournaments underestimate how big of a problem the 'Korean invasion' is.
The best example is the Home Story Cup 4. A guy called Sound who noone has ever heard of before comes to the tournament, gets up to the finals beating a lot of foreign stars like Stephano and then?...then what?! No one has ever seen anything again from Sound since then.
If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft.
So if their favourite non Korean star just gets owned by a random Korean they have never heard of before they lose interest.
Koreans who prove themselves in the GSL and who are supported by their own teams can fly to international tournaments, but western tournaments and teams shouldnt pay for 'random' Koreans to come over because you drastically reduce the entertainment value. how does raising the quality of play reduce the entertainment value? How about instead of laying blame at bringing in Koreans, blame foreigners for not being as good.
He literally wrote that in his damn post, if you would care to read it through.
If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft.
See?
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On March 04 2012 03:59 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide. its good. why? because the better players are getting the support.
You seem to be missing the whole point, it's not about who's the best, it's about trying to preserve each region's scene and pool of players. I'm pretty sure everyone accepts that a team of 100 top Koreans would beat a team of 100 top foreigners.
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On March 04 2012 04:02 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 04:00 sereniity wrote:On March 04 2012 03:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide. its good. why? because the better players are getting the support. The more koreans that join the less people will be watching in the west. Atleast that's what I think in the long run. i think you are wrong. GSL has massive popularity among foreigners. MLG had incredible viewership because they brought over the best Koreans.
MLG has also been able to ride on the fact that everybody wants to see a foreigner WIN over those Koreans. Alot of people sit at their homes and just wait for that one foreigner to break through the mighty koreans and claim the first spot.
The majority of the people are like what I described above, the people who are only interested in "good starcraft" are the minority.
Note, I pulled the above out of my ass, however I have an extremely hard time believing the opposite.
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OP has no grasp of the scene or how it operates rofl. As Tyler [NonY] said, a slap to Liquid's face. Wow.
0/5 if this was a blog.
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On March 04 2012 04:02 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 04:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 04 2012 03:57 marcesr wrote:
I agree with big parts of the artice.
I really do think that most teams and tournaments underestimate how big of a problem the 'Korean invasion' is.
The best example is the Home Story Cup 4. A guy called Sound who noone has ever heard of before comes to the tournament, gets up to the finals beating a lot of foreign stars like Stephano and then?...then what?! No one has ever seen anything again from Sound since then.
If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft.
So if their favourite non Korean star just gets owned by a random Korean they have never heard of before they lose interest.
Koreans who prove themselves in the GSL and who are supported by their own teams can fly to international tournaments, but western tournaments and teams shouldnt pay for 'random' Koreans to come over because you drastically reduce the entertainment value. how does raising the quality of play reduce the entertainment value? How about instead of laying blame at bringing in Koreans, blame foreigners for not being as good. He literally wrote that in his damn post, if you would care to read it through. Show nested quote +If you want to keep people interested into the competition you need stars who they can identify with. Most people wont keep watching just because they see good starcraft. See?
i completely disagree with that sentiment. Why would so many people not only watch, but pay to watch GSL if that were the case?
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On March 04 2012 04:04 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 04:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 04 2012 04:00 sereniity wrote:On March 04 2012 03:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 04 2012 03:51 RoboBob wrote:
To those disputing the trend towards releasing Westerners for Koreans, here's some data from the past 6 months:
EG: +1 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
TL: +2 Net Koreans, -1 Net Westerners
Complexity: +5 Net Koreans, +0 Net Westerners
Fnatic: +5 Net Koreans, -4 Net Westerners
Dignitas: +1 Net Koreans, -2 Net Westerners
FXO: -2 Net Koreans, -3 Net Westerners
imba.FXO: +0 Net Koreans, -6 Net Westerners
Mouz: +0 Net Koreans, +1 Net Westerners
Reign collapsing: -2 Net Koreans, -5 Net Westerners
Average Team: +1.1 Koreans, -2.3 Westerners
Is this good or bad for esports? I leave that up to you to decide. its good. why? because the better players are getting the support. The more koreans that join the less people will be watching in the west. Atleast that's what I think in the long run. i think you are wrong. GSL has massive popularity among foreigners. MLG had incredible viewership because they brought over the best Koreans. MLG has also been able to ride on the fact that everybody wants to see a foreigner WIN over those Koreans. Alot of people sit at their homes and just wait for that one foreigner to break through the mighty koreans and claim the first spot. The majority of the people are like what I described above, the people who are only interested in "good starcraft" are the minority. Note, I pulled the above out of my ass, however I have an extremely hard time believing the opposite.
its more than just seeing foreigners beat koreans. its seeing the best play. More Americans watch Euro league soccer than MLS. Why? Because the play is better. More Asians watch the nba and love the nba over the CBA because the NBA is where the best play.
People want to see the best. Simple as that.
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EPT
