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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:15 nalgene wrote: "Martial" = "War" "Martial Arts" = "War Arts" You know... how back in the old days... it's actually meant for killing people... but it's become a sport nowadays...  Your sad face seems to suggest that you think this is a bad thing... | ||
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HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
I suppose if you see what happened as a bunch of angry bullies mobbing a poor defenseless bully victim, who then defended his very life by stabbing one of the bullies to death—well then "justice was served." Justice was served by one young man fatally stabbing another young man in a neighborhood, but sure justice was served. Personally, I highly doubt that Saavedra's life was in danger, regardless of how he might have felt. By all accounts it was a fight in front of onlookers, not a fight against a mob. And it appears that that Nuno only threw one real punch before he was stabbed to death. Even then, I don't exactly disagree with the judge's decision. I don't expect Saavedra to be able to make perfectly rational decisions as a teenager, especially since it seems the authority figures around him (right down to the busdriver who let Nuno follow him off the bus) did not recognize or handle the situation as they should have. Who I disagree with is the assholes in this thread that want to take a sad, bloody, and entirely regrettable entanglement like this and chalk it up as some sort of victory against those perennial villains, the "bullies." You're all bloodthirsty. | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
Self-defense cases should always rule this way (maybe they do, and if so, hurray!) It's bullshit that people can get away with bullying and have no consequences. And when you do it for long enough, the tension builds high enough that something like this is bound to happen. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:18 HULKAMANIA wrote: I just don't understand this thread. I'm with LegendaryZ. I suppose if you see what happened as a bunch of angry bullies mobbing a poor defenseless bully victim, who then defended his very life by stabbing one of the bullies to death—well then "justice was served." Justice was served by one young man fatally stabbing another young man in a neighborhood, but sure justice was served. Personally, I highly doubt that Saavedra's life was in danger, regardless of how he might have felt. By all accounts it was a fight in front of onlookers, not a fight against a mob. And it appears that that Nuno only threw one real punch before he was stabbed to death. Even then, I don't exactly disagree with the judge's decision. I don't expect Saavedra to be able to make perfectly rational decisions as a teenager, especially since it seems the authority figures around him (right down to the busdriver who let Nuno follow him off the bus) did not recognize or handle the situation as they should have. Who I disagree with is the assholes in this thread that want to take a sad, bloody, and entirely regrettable entanglement like this and chalk it up as some sort of victory against those perennial villains, the "bullies." You're all bloodthirsty. I think we've all noticed over the years that sadly, and rather disturbingly, many people on this site and many people in daily life reveal that they do believe that justice is equivalent to vengeance. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:18 HULKAMANIA wrote: Who I disagree with is the assholes in this thread that want to take a sad, bloody, and entirely regrettable entanglement like this and chalk it up as some sort of victory against those perennial villains, the "bullies." You're all bloodthirsty. I've been the victim of pretty bad bullying from ages 5-10 by just my cousins. I don't think you truly understand how emotionally damaging being a victim of a bully for over a year is. Until you've been a victim of severe bullying, you will never understand. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
This is very clear cut. I agree with the law. I agree with the ruling. People trying to sensationalize this as murder really need to get some perspective. It's sad that this kid died. It's a tragedy. But it's not the bullied kids fault. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:07 LegendaryZ wrote: I suppose every situation is unique and people have different points at which they get scared of death. I can only speak to my own experiences in dealing with bullies. I knew my bullies well enough to know that they were complete assholes that might beat me down 8v1, but I also knew that they wouldn't kill me despite their violent tendencies. I can understand that authorities generally don't take these things seriously for various reasons, but I can't imagine escalating the situation with a weapon. Perhaps part of it is because I saw enough of that happening around me and it never ended well. People would stab someone and then get stabbed or shot a month later in retaliation by one of that person's friends. Defending yourself doesn't always make you safer... Precisely. Everyone has a different makeup. Not everyone will take a beatdown with open arms like yourself. In a fight where there are no rules anything can happen. Things will escalate very, very quickly. You can lose control over the situation very easily and there is no telling what they could try to do to you next. Maybe they aren't getting their fill and then another story like Reena Virk's pops up all over again. | ||
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Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:24 koreasilver wrote: I think we've all noticed over the years that sadly, and rather disturbingly, many people on this site and many people in daily life reveal that they do believe that justice is equivalent to vengeance. I think many people on this site just rather hear about a kid fighting back rather then the usual "Kid kills himself cause of bully's". | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:18 HULKAMANIA wrote: I just don't understand this thread. I'm with LegendaryZ. I suppose if you see what happened as a bunch of angry bullies mobbing a poor defenseless bully victim, who then defended his very life by stabbing one of the bullies to death—well then "justice was served." Justice was served by one young man fatally stabbing another young man in a neighborhood, but sure justice was served. Personally, I highly doubt that Saavedra's life was in danger, regardless of how he might have felt. By all accounts it was a fight in front of onlookers, not a fight against a mob. And it appears that that Nuno only threw one real punch before he was stabbed to death. Even then, I don't exactly disagree with the judge's decision. I don't expect Saavedra to be able to make perfectly rational decisions as a teenager, especially since it seems the authority figures around him (right down to the busdriver who let Nuno follow him off the bus) did not recognize or handle the situation as they should have. Who I disagree with is the assholes in this thread that want to take a sad, bloody, and entirely regrettable entanglement like this and chalk it up as some sort of victory against those perennial villains, the "bullies." You're all bloodthirsty. I've decided to give up on presenting this point of view. Apparently, it's perfectly normal to walk around armed at school, because kids die in middle-school fights, so high-school fights require weaponry. At least in America. I understand this may be on a case-by-case basis, where only people who grossly misinterpret threats of injury as threats of death are allowed to be carrying the weaponry. This one might hurt the feelings of those who support the ruling... Do not click on this if you don't think that only pussies carry knives to school. I'm serious. + Show Spoiler + Also, I get the feeling there are many individuals still butt-hurt from bullying they once experienced drawing upon their own self-pity and disregarding the life of the bully to satisfy their bully blood-lust. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
That's essentially the same actually. Proportionate force means that you can't use a knife to defend yourself against someone who has no weapon (bare hands are not a weapon, unless highly trained in martial arts). There is a Wikipedia article about self-defense law in Sweden that is translated in English if you want some insight on the topic : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(Sweden). For instance you can read there that "Loss of life or permanent bodily injury rarely justifies self defense unless the defending party was in danger of being subjected to the same." that's actually really interesting now that I think about it. to my understanding the law in Canada doesn't really do this, so the judge can interpret the situation more flexibly. now that you mention it, its actually pretty cool how they can set the law up in this different way, but still avoid the martial artist problem by just defining weapons more broadly. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On January 10 2012 15:11 Gao Xi wrote: Yea now he won't be on edge about being bullied. This is a case in point of why authorities should do a better job in preventing these kinds of incidents This is how I feel. Whether anyone thinks the kid was right or wrong is pretty irrelevant. The question is: Why didn't the authorities do something about it? Either remove a violent student from school, or something. Anything, really. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:30 RoosterSamurai wrote: This is how I feel. Whether anyone thinks the kid was right or wrong is pretty irrelevant. The question is: Why didn't the authorities do something about it? Either remove a violent student from school, or something. Anything, really. This is a dumb question. Authorities often times do not know about it. It goes unreported most of the time. The majority of rapes are done by someone the victim knows. That's food for thought. | ||
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Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:29 dUTtrOACh wrote: I've decided to give up on presenting this point of view. Apparently, it's perfectly normal to walk around armed at school, because kids die in middle-school fights, so high-school fights require weaponry. At least in America. I understand this may be on a case-by-case basis, where only people who grossly misinterpret threats of injury as threats of death are allowed to be carrying the weaponry. This one might hurt the feelings of those who support the ruling... Do not click on this if you don't think that only pussies carry knives to school. I'm serious. + Show Spoiler + Also, I get the feeling there are many individuals still butt-hurt from bullying they once experienced drawing upon their own self-pity and disregarding the life of the bully to satisfy their bully blood-lust. HAHA I love this angle of " the only ones on the victims side are those who were victims as well". Yah like that cant be completely turned around to "the only ones on the bully's side are bully's who now fear for there life". | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:34 Dizmaul wrote: HAHA I love this angle of " the only ones on the victims side are those who were victims as well". Yah like that cant be completely turned around to "the only ones on the bully's side are bully's who now fear for there life". Implying a life-long nerd moonlights as a bully... So sick. /flex | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:29 dUTtrOACh wrote: I've decided to give up on presenting this point of view. Apparently, it's perfectly normal to walk around armed at school, because kids die in middle-school fights, so high-school fights require weaponry. At least in America. I understand this may be on a case-by-case basis, where only people who grossly misinterpret threats of injury as threats of death are allowed to be carrying the weaponry. This one might hurt the feelings of those who support the ruling... Do not click on this if you don't think that only pussies carry knives to school. I'm serious. + Show Spoiler + Also, I get the feeling there are many individuals still butt-hurt from bullying they once experienced drawing upon their own self-pity and disregarding the life of the bully to satisfy their bully blood-lust. "perfectly normal" is not the proper characterization of the level of weapons at school. Very, very rare is better. Generally, fights don't get that bad and generally fights are stopped. (sometimes they don't and sometimes people die, and sometimes weapons are at schools illegally) The stabbing did not serve justice. However, the judge's finding did serve justice. The victim may not have done the best possible action, but they did not do anything bad. A much better situation would of course be more authorities involved (parents, school officials, police) to allow justice to fully be served. However, every school child having a squad of cops following them around all day is worse in so many ways. | ||
Rednaxela_19
United States150 Posts
Tien Canada. January 11 2012 04:25. Posts 3913 PM Profile Report Quote # On January 11 2012 04:18 HULKAMANIA wrote: Who I disagree with is the assholes in this thread that want to take a sad, bloody, and entirely regrettable entanglement like this and chalk it up as some sort of victory against those perennial villains, the "bullies." You're all bloodthirsty. I've been the victim of pretty bad bullying from ages 5-10 by just my cousins. I don't think you truly understand how emotionally damaging being a victim of a bully for over a year is. Until you've been a victim of severe bullying, you will never understand. I suppose that is true... and if he had a learning disability, maybe he was not a fully rational human being. Even so, the article made it seem as though it was just the one bully that was fighting him, and even though he was throwing punches, he was stabbed to DEATH. I'm just curious about how many times he was stabbed, because it seems like if you were the bullied, one stab would have been enough to make the bully stop. And if it was one stab it seems likely that it would have to be in the neck, or a unlikely stab underneath the ribcage and into the heart to be lethal. Which seems kind of far-fetched during the heat of the moment. I'm not trying to defend the bully. But think about it. Someone is DEAD because a kid could not find a better way, or make a better decision about defending himself. I am sure SOMETHING else could have been done to stop a DEATH from happening. Does all of teamliquid put such a low value on the life a person? Even if he was beating this kid up, think about the pain and suffering the family has been put through because of this. Is that worth it to stop someone from being bullied? Especially because there could have easily been a better way to defend yourself... For now, I am withholding judgement on the bullied, and similarly, the deceased, because there simply was not enough information in the article for me to make an accurate assessment of the situation. Such as how many times he stabbed him, and how bad previous beatings had been... But I can say I am sure the bully was not planning on KILLING him. This is not justice to me. Just a case of vengeance that may or may not have been the right decision based on the facts. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46628 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:24 koreasilver wrote: I think we've all noticed over the years that sadly, and rather disturbingly, many people on this site and many people in daily life reveal that they do believe that justice is equivalent to vengeance. I think we've all noticed over the years that sadly, and rather disturbingly, many people on this site and many people in daily life reveal that they do believe that self-defense is equivalent to murder. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
Does it mean it deserves to be put down? This situation is similar sure you could say the guy is mentally unstable carrying a knife and stabbing somebody but thats normal for a kid that age being bullied hardcore for a year, its not like he is a psycho they just made him this way, a wounded and cornered animal is dangerous. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:33 Tien wrote: This is a dumb question. Authorities often times do not know about it. It goes unreported most of the time. The majority of rapes are done by someone the victim knows. That's food for thought. You're right, it is a dumb question. It's stupid that I should even have to ask it, but why do I have to ask it? Because nobody is paying attention, that's why they don't know about it. And if a report does come along, it gets ignored, or it gets mysteriously "lost." That's food for thought. | ||
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