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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 10 2014 08:42 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 06:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On October 10 2014 06:04 Fusilero wrote:
I have literally nothing to add Well, should we group and write sad obituary to Korean scene? It's really fucking sad when Riot thinks that they're better than Korean infrastructure. #restinpeace Still have BW tho. Well and SC2 is in good shape. So, if having 2 teams per org was the sole reason why Korea was able to dominate, why do people even chear for them? Personally I doubt that, but the reactions to this show that almost everybody believes that Korea had a huge, decisive advantage over the other regions due to that special possibility. Why are they ok with that then, or even happy about it and want it to continue? I dont get it.
Western regions love to act like they're weak victims just because it's axiom, nothing new.
Thing is that biggest difference between regions (same in footbal, for example) is mid-tier. Top-tier in Korea will be same - same Samsung, let's say that KT are going to buy White, for example, same Faker and so on. But there won't be any Shields, Bullets, S'es and so on, they will be in China, so Chinese region is real beneficiary of everything, and as we all saw, they're not in worst shape of their lives either already.
But comparing mid-tiers currently (before anything is going to have official announcements) - Korea is just miles ahead of China+NA+EU+SEA+other regions in summary.
On October 10 2014 08:18 Thinasy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 08:14 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On October 10 2014 08:05 Thinasy wrote:
I just have to ask, cause the most confusing part for me while reading all of this is: Have the viewership started going down for OGN? not sure if they publish stuff like that or not. That's the only reason I can think of why they would want to do this in the first place. Either it's Riot forcing OGN with the LCS format where winter isnt allowed to exist or they dont have enough income to sustain 3 Champion's per year.
It's even more confusing when it was only a year ago that they talked about getting a new stadium or whatever for esports... I'm gonna be incredibly sad if OGN Winter doesnt even happen and gonna be even more sad if they actually enforce that stupid rule. League is on peak in Korea, it never was as high as it is now. I'm already getting nerd chills from imagining atmosphere at Worlds finals. And in general, Nexon Arena is new for KeSPA, can't open everything in same time. On October 10 2014 08:13 AlterKot wrote:
Maybe they are scared that Samsung dominance will continue and would rather force them to at least split into two orgs (and perhaps weaken by forcing to split the coaching staff as well?) People who claim that Riot just don't want same country to dominant their leagues (basically, NFL-esque manipulation) are close to reality, i feel. Great to hear, atleast I dont have to worry about that then, with all these bad rumors i'm kinda feeling down in the dumps, but yeah for me personally that even more reinforces that this must be Riot's decision.
Well, it's really hard for me to see KeSPA's hand in it, especially considering that only thing which was really not punished by KeSPA anywhere in those 15 years - competitive integrity is going to be hurt.
So, it's either LCS KR or idk.
Also, what can't be overlooked - disallowing sister teams means that no more Masters.
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I dont quite get your response, but I also believe that a major format change in Korea which makes it more similar to LCS is very likely.
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On October 10 2014 08:42 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 06:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Well, should we group and write sad obituary to Korean scene? It's really fucking sad when Riot thinks that they're better than Korean infrastructure. #restinpeace Still have BW tho. Well and SC2 is in good shape. So, if having 2 teams per org was the sole reason why Korea was able to dominate, why do people even chear for them? Personally I doubt that, but the reactions to this show that almost everybody believes that Korea had a huge, decisive advantage over the other regions due to that special possibility. Why are they ok with that then, or even happy about it and want it to continue? I dont get it.
Or maybe some people would rather see that the West drops the ridiculous rule disallowing sister teams then the rule being added in the East.
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On October 10 2014 03:41 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 03:23 Numy wrote:On October 10 2014 02:35 Fusilero wrote:On October 10 2014 02:33 nafta wrote:
Isn't that lamia on the far left? The current speculated roster is naniwa/sase/lamia/shushei/lightofheaven. Goddamn multi-game all star squad gonna rake in all the viewers edit: Wait I thought Kassing was on Alex's team? Alex might have gotten an offer from SK. If that happened the rest will surely look elsewhere. Would be funny if that team existed for a whole day or so. :D Impaler and Kasing would have found a nice place on Mill. Would also be extremely lucky for Alex, I didnt think he would still be rated that high in the pro scene tbh. On the other hand Alex going to SK would multiply the SK fan base. And their CEO is someone that thinks very much in publicity terms. But I am not convinced of it yet. Maybe teams are just fooling around a little on team ladder.
Dude its Alex Ich. I'd take a rusty Alex over an "in form" Jesiz any day. At least you know you have a premier mid if he gets back to his best. SK with 2012/2013 Alex Ich would probably be the best team in Europe.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 10 2014 08:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 08:42 Redox wrote:On October 10 2014 06:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Well, should we group and write sad obituary to Korean scene? It's really fucking sad when Riot thinks that they're better than Korean infrastructure. #restinpeace Still have BW tho. Well and SC2 is in good shape. So, if having 2 teams per org was the sole reason why Korea was able to dominate, why do people even chear for them? Personally I doubt that, but the reactions to this show that almost everybody believes that Korea had a huge, decisive advantage over the other regions due to that special possibility. Why are they ok with that then, or even happy about it and want it to continue? I dont get it. Or maybe some people would rather see that the West drops the ridiculous rule disallowing sister teams then the rule being added in the East.
China already dropped the rule after having it for S3 after major teams figured out how to loophole secondary teams into LPL anyway (for example, IG.Young becoming YG after qualifying for LPL Spring 2013--even after the fact the close association between IG and YG was pretty clear).
It's a stupid rule. It's really hard to enforce if organizations really try to game the system to get a secondary team into a major league, and the major Korean organizations have enough incentive to do so. Most of the major sponsors have the means to create a proxy organization for the sister team--and if you want to stop that you have a huge gray area that's really hard to draw the line for without potentially hurting legitimate independent teams.
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Yeah that's true Yango, I can easily see TSM or CLG having enough money to create MST or GLC gaming and buy a house next door -> now you can try and get your 'sister' team into LCS. And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series.
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Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur.
On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series.
There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively.
If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams.
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samsung vs samsung in the world championship semi-finals definitely takes some of the excitement out of the event for me.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams.
Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't.
Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams?
China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL.
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On October 10 2014 14:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams. Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't. Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams? China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL.
Just going to bring up the old TSM/C9 conspiracy theory. Regi thought they were immensely talented when they qualified for promotions. Their new owner just happened to be TSM's former manager. The teams just happen to be really close. One of C9's coaches just happens to be Regi's brother.
I'm not saying they're full on collusion mode, but if the rule was rescinded I would be surprised if they didn't team up almost immediately.
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On October 10 2014 14:07 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 14:01 TheYango wrote:On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams. Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't. Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams? China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL. Just going to bring up the old TSM/C9 conspiracy theory. Regi thought they were immensely talented when they qualified for promotions. Their new owner just happened to be TSM's former manager. The teams just happen to be really close. One of C9's coaches just happens to be Regi's brother. I'm not saying they're full on collusion mode, but if the rule was rescinded I would be surprised if they didn't team up almost immediately.
they're not close anymore btw
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
TSM and C9 may have been like that at one point but now C9 has pretty much torn away into their own brand
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I hope it's not a LCS KR, I can live with there being no sister teams but if Korea gets the LCS format it's gonna suck so hard.
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On October 10 2014 13:35 chalice wrote:
samsung vs samsung in the world championship semi-finals definitely takes some of the excitement out of the event for me.
Why? What difference does it make? Just because they are from the same org doesn't mean they are in any way close in terms of play style.
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Australia18228 Posts
On October 10 2014 15:25 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 13:35 chalice wrote:
samsung vs samsung in the world championship semi-finals definitely takes some of the excitement out of the event for me. Why? What difference does it make? Just because they are from the same org doesn't mean they are in any way close in terms of play style.
Yeah, but the players are like 'brothers' to each other. There's less trashtalk and whatnot than if it were Piglet-Imp
On October 10 2014 15:13 Zhiroo wrote:
I hope it's not a LCS KR, I can live with there being no sister teams but if Korea gets the LCS format it's gonna suck so hard.
I think it'll be good if they adopt SC2 PL schedule, rather than LCS'.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Gonna quickly play devils advocate for one team now. Take a moment to think, when was the last time an organisation that wasn't one of the big five make playoffs (CJ, KT, SKT, najin, and samsung). Coco storm at the start of the year? If we go back beyond coco storm then CTU last year? Sure the individual players may change but for some another samsung team kill is still dull to them.
Basically PRIME OPTIMUS KILLED KOREAN ESPORTS BY LOSING
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If it ain't broke, don't change it. Wonder if SEA will be affected (TPA just lost their sister team, but I think AHQ still wants to have an AHQF. Additionally there's SAJ-SF5, HKA.P-HKA.M. and whoever else is in GPL, GPL/LNL has quite a number of sister teams.)
Has there been any additional news about the KespaCup rumours?
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On October 10 2014 14:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams. Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't. Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams? China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL.
Would Samsung do that though? I don't see why Samsung would even attempt to create a proxy team if they don't have Samsung in the name.
It would be like in the west where no org has its name in the team title, i don't think that appeals to the koreans though?
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On October 10 2014 14:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams. Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't. Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams? China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL.
I'm no expert on the LPL, but China to me has always seemed to be a bit of a 'Wild West' of League; a kind of hot mess of poor/absent regulation, eccentric figures, shady deals, and exploited players. I don't think China is the best example to demonstrate that certain regulations are unenforceable, but that could just be my ignorance of the Chinese scene.
Surely it's not that hard to create regulations that would at least largely prevent sister team 'co-operation' from affecting competitive integrity? It might not be possible to prevent teams from ultimately being owned by the same people (hell, Samsung owns most of Korea, a Shinsegae team or E-Mart team would still basically be a Samsung team) but you could at least enforce a degree of separation where the links between teams are distant enough that there's no pressure to throw games for the benefit of another team.
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On October 10 2014 14:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that this is ultimately a good decision? The idea of 'sister teams' with the same parent organisation directly competing against each other in formal competition is just absurd. I cannot think of a single other competition with anything remotely comparable. With the way circuit points work, it was only a matter of time before an organisation was faced with a scenario in which winning games would be absolutely detrimental to their success. It is simply unacceptable for a competition to allow such a scenario to occur. On October 10 2014 11:55 miicah wrote:
And honestly from what I've heard from Monte, Korean teams would NEVER throw games against each other. He has brought up two examples in the past of when it would have been advantageous for white to win against blue yet blue won the game/series. There have already been multiple examples of people suggesting that Korean teams have lost games in unexpected circumstances to give their organisation a perceived advantage, the most (in)famous of them being those two games that SKT S lost that ultimately let K get through to the quarter-finals. There were also games that KTB supposedly ceded to Frost in order to play the perceived weaker team in MVP Ozone in playoffs (although that obviously had nothing to do with the presence of sister teams). I wouldn't dare suggest that there was match-fixing or anything involved, but either way, the perception that games are being thrown is also extremely damaging, and that stigma is always going to be an issue as long as sister teams are required to play each other competitively. If this were the only issue with sister teams, then I think OGN could have perhaps tried to develop some sort of dual conference system, where the sister teams are separated into different leagues and never compete against each other except perhaps in some sort of Superbowl-styled final, and only for pride/money rather than circuit points. But it seems to me like there are other reasons as to why OGN has decided to drop the sister teams. Again, China has already shown this system to be completely unenforceable because if teams actually try to get their sister teams into a league, there will be ways to do so that fall in a gray area that you can't really handle easily. It probably would be in NA/EU as well if it actually came up meaningfully often, but it doesn't. Like if Blue can't be "officially" part of Samsung, then what stops them creating a proxy organization called "Galaxy Gaming" that just happens to practice the most with Samsung White and share information with them? How do you draw the line then without the risk of unfairly punishing legitimate teams? China went through all this bullshit already and it was clearly un-manageable, which is why they reverted to allowing sister teams in LPL.
China also doesn't have KeSPA. Whatever org in China fills the same role clearly doesn't really have all that much power, but KeSPA is basically the Esports Empire in South Korea.
I'm sure KeSPA will be able to detect if any Korean orgs try to pull this, and shut that shit down.
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EPT
