EPTNaNiwa not invited to Code S - Page 257
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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people. Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. | ||
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IAttackYou
United States330 Posts
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Master_Blaster
United Kingdom269 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:14 Trsjnica wrote: They were invited to a tournament where all people in the tournament get prize money. This means they were paid to play, plain and simple. They come to compete. After the competition is over they are not obligated to offer showmatches, especially since they must be demotivated already. From now on every progamer should play every game from their bo3 and bo5 because the viewers paid for it. | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:16 Trsjnica wrote: MLG Providence did give a Code S spot. It gave one to Naniwa. He then disrespected the GSL and the fans of the GSL, and they decided that a fair punishment was the loss of his spot. Similarly, CoCa's finish in GSL last season also gave a Code S spot, and he lost it thorugh outside actions. According to GomTV he was never given a Code S spot, he was merely given an invitation to be given a Code S spot. It's a difference. | ||
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Tarrot
Taiwan85 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:12 jakoh wrote: Just so I get this straight, Naniwa pretty much gave a finger to the audience sitting at the venue, paying customers watching the stream, GOM staff, sponsors, and Nestea by throwing away a match that was advertised, and GOM is the one being disrespectful? If Naniwa already had a Code S seed, by revoking a Code S seed rightfully earned GOM acted in a borderline illegal manner, especially to a foreigner, so yes. While Nani was disrespectful, he did not break any rules set forth except for one rule which is so vague that a court most likely wouldn't side with GOM if brought up in a US system. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i was happy when i read blue's comment then yours blew my bubble  | ||
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote: Listen to Khaldor laying out some truth on GOM! What did he say? He was in the studio when it happened after all. | ||
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Giriath
Sweden2412 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:12 FiWiFaKi wrote: GomTV really did sink to a low level with these actions and calling Naniwa a "amateur prize money hunter". I really lost a lot of respect for them, and I wont be buying my annual pass either. Who are they to judge what motivates are "right" for playing tournaments. The vague rules annoy me too, like someone said - manner mules can be considered offensive too. Progamers have the right to play how they want and they can have any attitude they desire, as long as there aren't serious negative effects it doesn't matter. It's a flawed system and Gom can't expect players to play their best without motivation. Nani won this money for doing good in other tournaments, they weren't paying him. In the end Gom has every right to do this as it's their tournament, but it takes away a lot of the legitimacy. GomTV does not have every right to do what they did if in doing so they broke the contract they had with NaNiWa, which they may very well have done. The "rule" they used to break their contract with him and his team cannot possibly be legit, and would get laughed at in a court of law. Even if it is legit, or Quantic makes the reasonable choice not to sue, they still refuse to recognize the flaws in their tournament structure, that is the reason this could happen in the first place. Their management continues to be pompous and incompetent, and the GSL would be much better off without them. | ||
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Cruncharoo
United States136 Posts
1) Naniwa did not use any 'abusive behaviors' -- If anything he handicapped himself in a severe manner and gave himself little to no chance to win. I really don't find that abusive in any sense. 2) 'A player shall not offend an opponent or audience' -- Something being offensive is so subjective I really don't understand how this rule exists. Player A 1-1-1's his opponent and wins -- half of TeamLiquid (part of GOM's audience) is offended by this, and possibly even the opponent. This strategy can be seen as somewhat abusive. How/where do they draw the line on enforcing this rule? This rule is poorly written and definitely needs to be changed. 3) There needs to be a pro player union or at the very least a foreign pro player union -- GOM needs some legal action taken against them by an organized group of players (ie the union) to let them know that subjective enforcement of their rules will not be tolerated. They need objective rules and they need to enforce them for everyone consistently. A player union would help accomplish this and there needs to be steps taken to getting said union started. GOM != God. 4) I understand GOM can make whatever rules they want -- If GOM were to make a rule that said 'No player may choose to rush with workers and purposely loose' or something of that nature that is perfectly acceptable. However, if there were a player union as there are in professional sports, this rule would have to be part of a collective bargaining agreement between GOM and the players and be agreed upon by both parties. As it stands right now GOM has the right to do whatever it wants because there is no one opposing their power. 5) What I suggest -- Besides the forming of a player or foreign pro player union I think there are a few things that foreign players can do to show their protest on this matter. Although I sincerely doubt that this will happen because people do not want to give up their coveted spots, which they earned, and I completely understand that. a) Foreign players can boycott competing in this round of the GSL until more objective and globally enforced rules are created. -- This is very unlikely to happen because the gamers have worked very hard for their spots and do not want to give them up. b) Foreign viewers can boycott viewing/paying for the GSL this month --I know some people need to get their fix but I think this would send a very strong message to GOM and it's sponsors if all of the sudden foreign viewership dropped by a significant percentage (>50% or so). They would realize that they cannot treat foreign players in any way that they want and that if they do that there are financial consequences to doing so. c) Foreign casters can refuse to cast this months GSL --Although this will probably end up in their termination, another possibility would be for the casters to boycott. Tastosis are very influential along with the Code A casters and can definitely help bring about a change. If this were to happen it would definitely make going through with b) a lot easier for a lot of foreign fans. d) Social media -- People can let GOM know through facebook/twitter/e-mail/whatever that this is not acceptable. In the end I am not mad that Naniwa got banned for doing something 'offensive.' I am, however, upset that GOM can decide arbitrarily if something is offensive/abusive without any checks or balances or appeal process. If there were a rule that explicitly said that he could not do what he did and he did it anyway, go ahead take away his spot. As far as I am concerned this rule does not exist and GOM decided to be the moral police and do whatever it feels like. This is not acceptable for a professional league and the players should not put up with it. | ||
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staavros
Netherlands32 Posts
I was naniwa's fan for a day. When he played amazing games against top Koreans and won the GSL Global inv. I LOVE Korean players, but I also want the scene to grow and different schools to emerge and succeed, giving us an extra dimension to the game we love. Then I got to know him and his personality repelled me, so I didn't consider myself his fan anymore. On top of that, I was furious when I heard what he did recently in the Blizz cup. Does the above justify me to demand that rules are bend and broken in order for naniwa to be punished? I think we should all ask ourselves the above, let our heads cool down, and think, is it really what we want from our rapidly-growing passion of e-sports? That is what all sports do, they create heroes and villains, people that you love and people that you love to hate. I am sorry, I understand the feelings of many Korean pros that would like to be in his place, I prefer their attitude towards the game, but that ALONE does not mean we can throw out of the train anyone we dislike! So, I will be waiting for more official statements, especially the one from MLG. I will surely be happy in the following 2 cases: - MLG presents a rule that existed before the incident (of course!) and clarifies that MLG Providence does not award a code S spot. - GSL comes out clearly saying that naniwa's EXISTING code S status is TAKEN AWAY from him backed up, by a relevant GSL rule that existed before the incident (of course!). I will still disagree with that rule, but rules are rules. At least GSL/GOM will honestly state that it is their own decision to take away his code S status. In my opinion, anything else including the JUST TODAY constructed story that Providence did not, after all, award a code S spot, will be a serious blow to the good faith we are all trying to build e-sports on. And yes, as a simple spectator and casual player, I am ALSO trying to do that, and think that everybody should do his part big or small. The part of tournament organizers is huge. I hope they stand up to the circumstances and give us a solid explanation. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" | ||
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Wallstreet11
133 Posts
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:17 lowercase wrote: I guarantee you that if that probe rush had been done in good humour all would have been forgiven. If Boxer had done it, or MC, as a joke, everybody would have laughed and there would be no drama. But Naniwa had a hissy fit and did it in rage, which is poor sportsmanship, and now he's got egg on his face. If Boxer or MC or anybody else would have done the same thing, they would have suffered the same punishement. BUT GUESS WHAT ??? Boxer or MC will never do such a dumb thing because they know what is respect. | ||
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Wallstreet11
133 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote: GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" Didnt you watch the stream? He DID play FOUR games. Are you dense? | ||
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:18 Master_Blaster wrote: They come to compete. After the competition is over they are not obligated to offer showmatches, especially since they must be demotivated already. From now on every progamer should play every game from their bo3 and bo5 because the viewers paid for it. Every progamer should look at the schedule for events they are attending. It was a round-robin tournament. That means he is expected to play a round-robin tournament. To use the example of chess, their tournaments are very very often round-robin. 99% of this time, this means that in the last round, many players have little left to play for. They may not play the most epic games ever, but they put in a level of effort that is accepted in the chess community. In this case, Naniwa failed to do this, as shown by the numerous huge threads about this, even before the GSL's punishment. | ||
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Wallstreet11
133 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:20 Yaki wrote: If Boxer or MC or anybody else would have done the same thing, they would have suffered the same punishement. BUT GUESS WHAT ??? Boxer or MC will never do such a dumb thing because they know what is respect. Good one  | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
Kid needs an attitude adjustment. Hope this provides it. GL HF. | ||
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:19 Giriath wrote: GomTV does not have every right to do what they did if in doing so they broke the contract they had with NaNiWa, which they may very well have done. The "rule" they used to break their contract with him and his team cannot possibly be legit, and would get laughed at in a court of law. Even if it is legit, or Quantic makes the reasonable choice not to sue, they still refuse to recognize the flaws in their tournament structure, that is the reason this could happen in the first place. Their management continues to be pompous and incompetent, and the GSL would be much better off without them. Can we stop discussing a contract that we haven't seen, haven't read, and don't have a Korean lawyer to advise us on? This contract is pure conjecture. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:11 perestain wrote: I find it mindblowing that people who claim to value competition want players to be forced to fake it when there is no competition. This is what I'm talking about, people have no sense of sportsmanship. Even if both of them were 0-3 and had no chance of advancing why does that matter? Trash talk Nestea, go 0-3, win and feel okay about the fact that you beat one of the best zergs, give the viewers/sponsors something. But instead, trash talk nestea, go 0-3, ragequit. He's like a 12 year old kid on LoL or something. On December 15 2011 03:10 Wallstreet11 wrote: I find it mindbloggling that the US citizens are the ones who are hating on Naniwa the most out of all Western countires it seems. How does that correlate to the fact that your hero is an even bigger BMer? I like them both but how the hell can you stand by idrA completely and toss Naniwa under the bus or are you under cover koreans with fake accounts? A lot of people in the US dislike Idra and I'm sure plenty of Swedes dislike Naniwa. | ||
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TaKemE
Denmark1045 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote: GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" No they dident... Naniwa qualifed for the seed into the tournament and the $850. | ||
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