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On December 16 2011 00:55 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:51 allerion wrote:
So basically, what terrans are saying is that it is impossible to win as terran, so people switch races? What people are saying is that although Terran has a huge skill-cap, At the lower leagues it's much more difficult to utilize those skills effectively. Constant dropping,harass,macro is much more difficult for players in low masters and below in comparison to Zerg and Protoss.
What makes harass more difficult with terran than with protoss or zerg?
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On December 16 2011 01:04 xUnSeEnx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:02 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 01:00 jupiter6 wrote:On December 16 2011 00:38 dde wrote:On December 15 2011 20:03 darkness wrote:On December 15 2011 18:55 dde wrote:
I have been waiting for a thread like this lol. Because everytime i won as terran in a tournament my opponent goes I won because i played terran. =(. I been mainly offracing as protoss on ladder and i got in top 16 GM :S. Proof you're logged on as that GM account or it didn't happen why not check sc2ranks.com LOL haha heres the link for people who dont know who you are http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/2309313/GoSuDDE73% winrate off-race is impressive  i remember interview with ret who said he off-races as protoss quite abit and he beats good players even without any practice O_O holy shit DDE... why are you even wasting time with Terran anymore? Imagine how good you could be if you devoted some time to Toss... Because he knows the Koreans will call him a scrub for playing a mind, numbing easy race.
ye protoss doing great in korea
last gsl tourney even has a protoss in the semi final for once
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On December 16 2011 01:04 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:53 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:41 bLah. wrote:On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Blue flamed hellions are amazing vs's zealots and no one uses them lol. lol, no they are not. chargelots destroy everything On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Drops are still amazing in this match up and all of a sudden terrans are not mass dropping anymore, Why?... i have no fckin idea. Because every toss who's not completely incompetent will make observers to see when you move out and until then he'll have his army spread around so you can't drop. Nah man, BF Hellions OWN chargelots.... you just need 500 APM to kite with them while also controlling your ghosts, stutter stepping your bio, and microing your vikings. Don't forget to stay on top of your macro and production. Meanwhile, Toss has 50 APM because chargelots pretty much do work without any user input necessary. It's so frustrating how Protoss are all in some sick denial about the state of TvP. Terrans have exhausted almost all options in this matchup from sky terran, pure mech, bio mech, ghost pushes, a wide variety of all-ins and NOTHING works. The pros wouldn't be using bio every game if there was a single viable alternative, but there isn't. Bio is the only strategy that has even a remote shot at victory. At realease, terrans went mmmv. Now terrans go mmmvg. Thats some crazy innovation. How do you know there isnt a viable alternative? in SOTG Artosis talked about nobody really trying mech except Goody, and it works fairly well for him. Id be pretty interested to see these mass amounts of games (we can all agree it takes a while to hash something out) that terrans have tried new things, and have them all crushed.
Hurry! You gotta let MVP and all code S Terrans know that Mech is actually pretty good at TvP because Artosis said so. Hurry, go now!
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On December 16 2011 01:04 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:53 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:41 bLah. wrote:On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Blue flamed hellions are amazing vs's zealots and no one uses them lol. lol, no they are not. chargelots destroy everything On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Drops are still amazing in this match up and all of a sudden terrans are not mass dropping anymore, Why?... i have no fckin idea. Because every toss who's not completely incompetent will make observers to see when you move out and until then he'll have his army spread around so you can't drop. Nah man, BF Hellions OWN chargelots.... you just need 500 APM to kite with them while also controlling your ghosts, stutter stepping your bio, and microing your vikings. Don't forget to stay on top of your macro and production. Meanwhile, Toss has 50 APM because chargelots pretty much do work without any user input necessary. It's so frustrating how Protoss are all in some sick denial about the state of TvP. Terrans have exhausted almost all options in this matchup from sky terran, pure mech, bio mech, ghost pushes, a wide variety of all-ins and NOTHING works. The pros wouldn't be using bio every game if there was a single viable alternative, but there isn't. Bio is the only strategy that has even a remote shot at victory. At realease, terrans went mmmv. Now terrans go mmmvg. Thats some crazy innovation. How do you know there isnt a viable alternative? in SOTG Artosis talked about nobody really trying mech except Goody, and it works fairly well for him. Id be pretty interested to see these mass amounts of games (we can all agree it takes a while to hash something out) that terrans have tried new things, and have them all crushed.
Oh, if Artosis said so! Please, the guy knows as much about Terran as I do fixing an alternator. He played Zerg, he plays Protoss, and then doesn't shut up about how powerful mech is. He's stuck on BW Terran, where tanks were useful in the matchup for more than just pelting a FE. If I'm not mistaken, Goody doesn't even play mech against P anymore because it's more or less impossible.
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On December 16 2011 01:10 ToInfinity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:04 xUnSeEnx wrote:On December 16 2011 01:02 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 01:00 jupiter6 wrote:On December 16 2011 00:38 dde wrote:On December 15 2011 20:03 darkness wrote:On December 15 2011 18:55 dde wrote:
I have been waiting for a thread like this lol. Because everytime i won as terran in a tournament my opponent goes I won because i played terran. =(. I been mainly offracing as protoss on ladder and i got in top 16 GM :S. Proof you're logged on as that GM account or it didn't happen why not check sc2ranks.com LOL haha heres the link for people who dont know who you are http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/2309313/GoSuDDE73% winrate off-race is impressive i remember interview with ret who said he off-races as protoss quite abit and he beats good players even without any practice O_O holy shit DDE... why are you even wasting time with Terran anymore? Imagine how good you could be if you devoted some time to Toss... Because he knows the Koreans will call him a scrub for playing a mind, numbing easy race. ye protoss doing great in korea last gsl tourney even has a protoss in the semi final for once
They had Huk before the patch lol. Toss have normally gotten to the semis in GSL. I will post in a minute all the toss who have gotten there.
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On December 16 2011 01:04 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:53 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:41 bLah. wrote:On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Blue flamed hellions are amazing vs's zealots and no one uses them lol. lol, no they are not. chargelots destroy everything On December 16 2011 00:30 cmen15 wrote:
Drops are still amazing in this match up and all of a sudden terrans are not mass dropping anymore, Why?... i have no fckin idea. Because every toss who's not completely incompetent will make observers to see when you move out and until then he'll have his army spread around so you can't drop. Nah man, BF Hellions OWN chargelots.... you just need 500 APM to kite with them while also controlling your ghosts, stutter stepping your bio, and microing your vikings. Don't forget to stay on top of your macro and production. Meanwhile, Toss has 50 APM because chargelots pretty much do work without any user input necessary. It's so frustrating how Protoss are all in some sick denial about the state of TvP. Terrans have exhausted almost all options in this matchup from sky terran, pure mech, bio mech, ghost pushes, a wide variety of all-ins and NOTHING works. The pros wouldn't be using bio every game if there was a single viable alternative, but there isn't. Bio is the only strategy that has even a remote shot at victory. At realease, terrans went mmmv. Now terrans go mmmvg. Thats some crazy innovation. How do you know there isnt a viable alternative? in SOTG Artosis talked about nobody really trying mech except Goody, and it works fairly well for him. Id be pretty interested to see these mass amounts of games (we can all agree it takes a while to hash something out) that terrans have tried new things, and have them all crushed.
These are the protoss players that frustrate me. You have obviously put almost no thought into your post. Goody has straight up said that mech is 100% not viable TvP and as a consequence he has had to relearn the matchup using bio. There hasn't been room for innovation because NOTHING ELSE WORKS. If you've payed attention to the competitive scene at all, you'd know that terrans have exhausted all options and the only semi-viable TvP strat is bio or 1-1-1 and pray to god that your opponent is bad enough to die to it or too stupid to get a robo.
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I've definitely noticed this as well. I rarely play any TvTs anymore. I think it might have to do with the race being ridiculously strong if you can control your army correctly, but the units themselves (marines, marauders) are essentially glass cannons. If you can't control your units right, like many people not in gm/masters, then it can get frustrating. It's kind of just how the race is designed; you are rewarded for being able to split and stutter-step. I dunno, but this might have something to do with the lack of Terrans.
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On December 16 2011 01:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:01 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:50 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:38 dde wrote:On December 15 2011 20:03 darkness wrote:On December 15 2011 18:55 dde wrote:
I have been waiting for a thread like this lol. Because everytime i won as terran in a tournament my opponent goes I won because i played terran. =(. I been mainly offracing as protoss on ladder and i got in top 16 GM :S. Proof you're logged on as that GM account or it didn't happen why not check sc2ranks.com LOL XFD On a related note, SlayerS_Dragon is at least dabbling in Protoss these days. These higher up Terrans switching makes me sad.  It's funny how good terran players like Dragon, BeastyQT, DDE, etc. can play protoss for a day and be competitive at their high GM tier. To be fair, overall mechanics and game knowledge go further in that situation than you're giving credit for. Well, they were all playing players around their skill level, since they were playing on their GM accounts and not smurphs. Their opponents should have about the same level of mechanics/game knowledge and should have a significant advantage by playing their main race. However, this is not the case. DDE 140-50 as offrace in GM? To me it seems like the Terrans have developed much stronger mechanics and game sense due to the nature of Terran play and this translates to relative ease in playing Protoss.
That would be true if every player at that level was at the base level of DDE (and a few dozen other pros). Since the ladder is very limited at that level, he no doubt played a ton of players in high masters/low GM, which even at their mains are probably not as good as DDE's base skill level. It's still impressive though.
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On December 16 2011 01:09 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:55 KonohaFlash wrote:On December 16 2011 00:51 allerion wrote:
So basically, what terrans are saying is that it is impossible to win as terran, so people switch races? What people are saying is that although Terran has a huge skill-cap, At the lower leagues it's much more difficult to utilize those skills effectively. Constant dropping,harass,macro is much more difficult for players in low masters and below in comparison to Zerg and Protoss. What makes harass more difficult with terran than with protoss or zerg? I think it's more that the protoss/zerg don't actually have to harass with much effectiveness at those levels. If you sit back and just macro without touching your opponent as terran for 15 mins you're probably dead, due to zerg's explosive macro/protoss army becomes untouchable without absolutely perfect micro. You have to get some sort of advantage through harassment as T.
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TvP right now is unplayable. Protoss will get chargelots to rape you or they can simply get a few hts, and with a few missed emps your army is gone because of storm.
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As a former GM level terran player on NA ladder, I've basically just thrown in the towel entirely on this game because I can't even beat high masters players anymore. I used to be undefeated vs players like Catz, Destiny, Slush etc etc but when I started playing again recently I got absolute wrecked by players I used to be good vs. I mean it was clear that these players have gotten infinitely better than they used to be so I'm not saying that imbalance is the reason they were rolling me so easily but t v z and t v p are simply too hard for me. By far t v t is my best match up but you literally get maybe 1 terran out of 20 games in high masters right now.
From design Terran was a race that was meant to catch their opponent off guard a lot. I don't necessarily mean you all in every game, but even if you were going for a macro game you still needed to open with some sort of aggressive build first. They've nerfed every single opener in terran existence so now you basically know exactly what someone will open with and you can blindly prepare for it (an example being reactor hellion expand in t v z). I think this is the main reason the race is now impossible to win with unless you're a korean bw pro with godlike mouse speed which is so necessary to control bio units.
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Seems that this OP was a subtle/clever way of introducing the first ever Terran Tears thread. Perhaps title should be renamed?
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On December 16 2011 01:18 Jaxtyk wrote:
TvP right now is unplayable. Protoss will get chargelots to rape you or they can simply get a few hts, and with a few missed emps your army is gone because of storm.
if you land the emps, protoss dies, so it kinda comes down to micro in ghost vs HT
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On December 16 2011 01:18 Jaxtyk wrote:
TvP right now is unplayable. Protoss will get chargelots to rape you or they can simply get a few hts, and with a few missed emps your army is gone because of storm.
It's not unplayable, but it's just difficult. And I don't know why it's unplayable right now; HT and chargelots have always been in the game just like they are (HT were even nerfed), why is it unplayable now and not before?
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On December 16 2011 01:14 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:07 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 01:01 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:50 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:38 dde wrote:On December 15 2011 20:03 darkness wrote:On December 15 2011 18:55 dde wrote:
I have been waiting for a thread like this lol. Because everytime i won as terran in a tournament my opponent goes I won because i played terran. =(. I been mainly offracing as protoss on ladder and i got in top 16 GM :S. Proof you're logged on as that GM account or it didn't happen why not check sc2ranks.com LOL XFD On a related note, SlayerS_Dragon is at least dabbling in Protoss these days. These higher up Terrans switching makes me sad. It's funny how good terran players like Dragon, BeastyQT, DDE, etc. can play protoss for a day and be competitive at their high GM tier. To be fair, overall mechanics and game knowledge go further in that situation than you're giving credit for. Well, they were all playing players around their skill level, since they were playing on their GM accounts and not smurphs. Their opponents should have about the same level of mechanics/game knowledge and should have a significant advantage by playing their main race. However, this is not the case. DDE 140-50 as offrace in GM? To me it seems like the Terrans have developed much stronger mechanics and game sense due to the nature of Terran play and this translates to relative ease in playing Protoss. That would be true if every player at that level was at the base level of DDE (and a few dozen other pros). Since the ladder is very limited at that level, he no doubt played a ton of players in high masters/low GM, which even at their mains are probably not as good as DDE's base skill level. It's still impressive though.
Look at the SC2ranks profile. He has been in GM for a while on that account and it's safe to assume that his MMR has been consistently high throughout. He is playing Protoss at the same level of competition as his Terran and doing better than most professional Protoss players. To me that says something. And the fact that he is just one of many Terran pros that can do this is what is most profound.
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I think it's because everybody cries "Terran OP!" all the time, so much so that it doesn't matter if it's true or not, people start to believe it. I guess lots of people can't stand to be judged, so they switch to P or Z. If you play zerg everybody treats you like "oh, wow, what a brave soul..." except now EVERYBODY plays zerg. My University is in the CSL and I've noticed that Terran are rarities, at least on our team and lots of teams that we play.
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On December 16 2011 01:23 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Seems that this OP was a subtle/clever way of introducing the first ever Terran Tears thread. Perhaps title should be renamed?
I don't think that was the original purpose of the OP...it was definitely something interesting to bring up.
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I did use blue flames before its damage got nerfed by 5. I stopped using them because charge lots just ignore them like nothing.... and its not hard as protoss to split their zealots and a move into terran mech. Mech is just way too weak to immortal play or blink stalkers harassment. (in top level i mean) mech is not viable option vs protoss.
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It's like playing Doom with godmode on ... You know, you really enjoy it the first 30 minutes, but then it just gets boring, as time passes.
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On December 16 2011 01:24 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:14 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 01:07 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 01:01 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 00:50 aksfjh wrote:On December 16 2011 00:38 dde wrote:On December 15 2011 20:03 darkness wrote:On December 15 2011 18:55 dde wrote:
I have been waiting for a thread like this lol. Because everytime i won as terran in a tournament my opponent goes I won because i played terran. =(. I been mainly offracing as protoss on ladder and i got in top 16 GM :S. Proof you're logged on as that GM account or it didn't happen why not check sc2ranks.com LOL XFD On a related note, SlayerS_Dragon is at least dabbling in Protoss these days. These higher up Terrans switching makes me sad. It's funny how good terran players like Dragon, BeastyQT, DDE, etc. can play protoss for a day and be competitive at their high GM tier. To be fair, overall mechanics and game knowledge go further in that situation than you're giving credit for. Well, they were all playing players around their skill level, since they were playing on their GM accounts and not smurphs. Their opponents should have about the same level of mechanics/game knowledge and should have a significant advantage by playing their main race. However, this is not the case. DDE 140-50 as offrace in GM? To me it seems like the Terrans have developed much stronger mechanics and game sense due to the nature of Terran play and this translates to relative ease in playing Protoss. That would be true if every player at that level was at the base level of DDE (and a few dozen other pros). Since the ladder is very limited at that level, he no doubt played a ton of players in high masters/low GM, which even at their mains are probably not as good as DDE's base skill level. It's still impressive though. Look at the SC2ranks profile. He has been in GM for a while on that account and it's safe to assume that his MMR has been consistently high throughout. He is playing Protoss at the same level of competition as his Terran and doing better than most professional Protoss players. To me that says something. And the fact that he is just one of many Terran pros that can do this is what is most profound.
How many pro terrans have switched actually? Lastshadow, TLO, DDE, Lzgamer, Morrow, any more?
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EPT
