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On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote:
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade?
While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything.
The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes:
- The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne.
- A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up.
- Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc)
- Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure).
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I certainly hope this is just a fluke, more Protoss winning means more Protoss games in televised matches, and Protoss is an esport killer for us spectators. PvX are dreadful MU's, and I just can't stand watching the ball either winning nor losing.
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On November 10 2011 02:37 Nothingtosay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds" Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. the way I see it was that the blink nerf was not only for pvt but also pvz. (didn't huk used blink rush against terran today in gsl?) i actually thought the 4 gate nerf and pylon radius was to make pvp better. (and honestly, 90% of my zvp were 4 gates...I could see blizzard nerfing it just to make sure toss has more dimensions in their games) the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? Not sure about MM through, I do feel that early trade, gateway is weaker but I don't really see protoss losing to terran by MM alone. Most often PvT loss is the ghost emp changing the entire engagement outcome. and honestly, toss players had been improving a lot recently, even without needing to use those newly buff'd units like warp prism. I won't be surprised to see more toss players to get better results. On November 10 2011 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Word. D:
is this real life??? If you watch Jinro's stream you will hear and see that he is atleast as opinionated as idra if not more (I would say more) about protoss.
Terran complaining about protoss, lolwtf
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On November 10 2011 02:39 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote:
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything. The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes: - The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne. - A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up. - Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc) - Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure).
The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc.
He's hated toss since BW for whatever reason.
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On November 10 2011 02:39 HowardRoark wrote:
I certainly hope this is just a fluke, more Protoss winning means more Protoss games in televised matches, and Protoss is an esport killer for us spectators. PvX are dreadful MU's, and I just can't stand watching the ball either winning nor losing.
Yea that's the sad part of the game atm, the colossus is such a boring but "good" unit that affects the race in all match ups incredibly adversely. I really cannot think of a single way that I LIKE to watch the colossus playout in a match up.
Garbage unit to play with, watch and think about. Get rid of it.
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Montenegro10532 Posts
I still don't like the way they play and nothing revolutionary has changed, so... 
Then again, I guess it doesn't even matter anymore since I don't play P anymore, but I'd still watch any other matchups rather than Protoss matchups.
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On November 10 2011 02:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready. For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving. Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc. People thought stalkers did too much DPS? Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas. Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
This. Stalkers have some SHITTY dps. Not only that, but it scales terribly. Their strength is the blink, and anti-air capabilities. But they still are suuuuuper cost inefficient when compared to marines or even roaches.
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The sad Zealot was a retarded thing from start. Always been, always will be.
Thanks for nerfing EMP and buffing protoss btw! :-D
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On November 10 2011 02:40 Daralii wrote:
The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc.
That's exactly what I thought. I think it may also have nerfed 2rax in TvP slightly too, but the difference isn't significant.
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I still don't like the fact that I'm forced to use archon toilet to beat broodlords
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On November 10 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:32 Cyro wrote:On November 10 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready. For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving. Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc. People thought stalkers did too much DPS? Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas. Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
And this, combined with the posts from Idra and Jinro in this thread, is why Protoss is in its current state.
Blizzard seems to be taking feedback from pros who are looking out for themselves, rather than truly wanting the game to become all that it can be.
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As soon as Protoss wins GSL again.
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On November 10 2011 02:40 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:39 SeaSwift wrote:On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote:
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything. The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes: - The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne. - A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up. - Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc) - Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure). The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc. He's hated toss since BW for whatever reason.
Every BW Terran hates protoss because they spend all their time setting up perfect army positioning, laying mines, defending dts, watching for reaver/ht drops, and then protoss seemingly 1 a 2a 3a's into their army while casting stasis screaming LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and kills them.
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On November 10 2011 01:19 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:18 chokke wrote:On November 10 2011 01:12 hippocritical wrote:On November 10 2011 01:10 TideRoll wrote:
I'm confused, what's a Zelot? What I'd imagine to be the phonetic American pronunciation of Zealot is. It's pronounced sea-lot though, so wrong either way. I thought it was zeeeeeeeee-lot
Artosis and a lot of other people pronounce it wrong every time.
It's zel-uht.
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too early bro. the new patch just came out and toss still has hard time against T. well see.
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On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who are angry they arent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
fyp zerg
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On November 10 2011 01:16 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
you heard it here first! RandomForumGuy confirmed: Korean Terrans>Korean NonTerrans
lol
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protoss should make a strong showing this season, at least 1 toss in top 8 for sure, and probably one in top 4. after that it'll be up to practice and preparation over pretty much anything.
I called this before the season started. it was obvious that protoss did poorly due to their own players faults not because of the race, if you looked at the strategies and reactions impartially this became very obvious. so yeah i agree with IdrA. learn to analyze your races strategies and why they aren't working instead of complaining about balance.
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ELO is shit.
Idra hates Protoss because he perceives them to be an A-move race, where they do nothing but make units and attack after maxing out. This stems from BW where Protoss was also the most versatile and cheesiest race, and Terran had to play a flawless early game to not die to a lot of all ins. Basically, he hates the race's playstyle and the fact that they could win games by doing nothing if the opponent didn't react correctly. Imbalanced? No. Abusive obnoxious piece of ****? Yes.
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EPT
