On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
as a Zerg I hope in the future that Protoss continues with success ... as long as it is without mass collosus ... that unit IMO makes for uninteresting games and takes away from the skill of players like HuK and HerO but things like stargate/gateway/warp prism play lets them do their thing with great micro
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
protoss are doing well because of zealots too, they should use them more tbh. They do great DPS and take forever to kill! EDIT: less stalkers vs. T is very beneficial btw
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
Of course a Protoss won in a recent tournament, however on HuK's way to the top he had to play a lot of Protoss that is why I don't like this tournament win as some kind of evident whatsoever. And to say that Protoss are doing quite well in the past month is just wrong.
And tbh I don't like threads with an opening of 3-4 sentences. If you want to discuss something with the community please put some effort in your post.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:17 Lunat!c wrote: It is too early to say anything about that.
Of course a Protoss won in a recent tournament, however HuK's way to the top he had to play a lot of Protoss that is why I don't like this tournament win as some kind of evident what so ever. And to say that Protoss are doing quite well in the past month is just wrong.
And tbh I don't like threads with an opening of 3-4 sentences. If you want to discuss something with the community please put some effort in your post.
you seem to not like a lot of things lol.
so even though a protoss won you're unhappy because he didnt win vs. people you wanted him to win against? lol. im guessing you didnt like how MMA has gotten to the finals 2 times, both of which he TvTd his way there.
But vs zerg some players really abuse mass muta or mass roach timing attacks to win, so we will see if the best protoss players can find a way to counter it.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:17 Lunat!c wrote: It is too early to say anything about that.
Of course a Protoss won in a recent tournament, however on HuK's way to the top he had to play a lot of Protoss that is why I don't like this tournament win as some kind of evident what so ever. And to say that Protoss are doing quite well in the past month is just wrong.
And tbh I don't like threads with an opening of 3-4 sentences. If you want to discuss something with the community please put some effort in your post.
Yeah because MC(2nd place from that tournament BTW) won based on PvP and played against only T and Z scrubs
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
This is what I wanted to say but I can't because I'm not Idra lol
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
we just wanted the freewins zerg were getting from early pools and terrans from late expos. too much to ask?
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
I wonder if this one will get a warning/ban. I guess not, if only for the entertainment value.
I'm not convinced yet. Sure, Protoss is doing far better in Code S now, but when that is a sample size of FOUR total, I'm not holding my breath for a period of Protoss doing very well. If this month bucks the trend and/or the trend changes over a period of time then yeah, of course. But as soon as P wins anything a lot of T players turn round and say: "see, game's balanced. Stop whining".
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
I agree 100% with this statement ^
Edit: if anyone from this thread gets banned/warning its probably a protoss player
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
Well. We were buffed a few times. So as much as Idra may think it's because our heads are removed from ass, it's probably because we've been codedly changed...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
I laughed out loud. Here's to hoping you don't get a warning .
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
1) MMM in majority of games is innovative? I'm not trying to be sarcastic... But wouldn't Terran be the least innovative in terms of strats we see?
2) Are the high level because they are good? Or are they high level because they play terran?... I'm not claiming either to be true, but I am just pointing out the flawed thinking in your second point.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Looks like incontrol had the last protein shake...
Nope, not yet, The marine is still smiling, the zerglings are shrugging their shoulders, the zealot is wiping it's tears with a tissue, and looking forward to a better future, as it looks to board a warp prism with it's newly upgraded blades.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
Yeah Protoss does seem to be on the move, however I wouldn't jump to conclusions. I think Blizzard made good on addressing the issue with the new patch but I think they addressed it in the wrong way. Now Zealots can have an armor of 5 (incl. guardian shield) at 15 minutes in the game..
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
Yep, those Zerg buffs and Protoss nerfs really required a lot of meta-game evolution from Zerg players.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
I'm starting to think Tassadar killed IdrA's parents.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Protoss play has really developed tremendously. We see a lot more drops, better multitasking, more solid macro styles, and even better unit control these days than even just a few months ago. In today's GSL, Protoss did very well, and not only hasn't the new patch hit, but the old one was barely relevant--hardly anyone made immortals, and the only prism appeared in pvp. In other words, the recent patch had nothing to do with Protoss winning, it was all the players getting better. Killer especially looks amazing, but HuK is very polished, MC is back on form, and there are so many newer toss with really cool and innovative styles.
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
and you only quote tournaments, where terrans don't where on the top. so i continue for you
IPL 4 Pacfic T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
Blizzcon 2011 T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
GSL October T 1st T 2nd T 3rd/4th
GSL August T 1st T 2nd T/Z 3rd/4th
TLPD rates aren't close at 50% yet. terran is always ahead the both other races. Stop acting as if terran is in bad shape. sad terran my ass.
and ontopic:
i think it's too early to say protoss have a comeback. it was just the first round. and we'll have to wait if one protoss can make it to the gsl finals or not, but i think the capabilities of protoss are still too limited to reach that.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
I'm starting to think Tassadar killed IdrA's parents.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
Zerg spend half a year figuring out how to win vs p. P hasn't even tried...
I hope you realize how stupid this comment was
Solid point
You are completely wrong.
Protoss spend half a year figuring out how to win vs z. Z hasn't even tried...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
You mean the same way as you did?I agree.
Why did?
I guess because he is not whining as much lately and actually winning tournaments and you can't argue against that so,yea.He practiced and now he is winning.Good for him if it stays like that.
IMO it was always time for happy zealot. Just that the tosses havent figured the nuances of their own race. Perishing to timing attacks is truly unfortunate but hey you have obs so scout it out and prepare accordingly!
On November 10 2011 01:41 awesomoecalypse wrote: Protoss play has really developed tremendously. We see a lot more drops, better multitasking, more solid macro styles, and even better unit control these days than even just a few months ago. In today's GSL, Protoss did very well, and not only hasn't the new patch hit, but the old one was barely relevant--hardly anyone made immortals, and the only prism appeared in pvp. In other words, the recent patch had nothing to do with Protoss winning, it was all the players getting better. Killer especially looks amazing, but HuK is very polished, MC is back on form, and there are so many newer toss with really cool and innovative styles.
The previous patch had nothing to do with protoss winning?
Yeah because it's not like we started to see immortals and warp prisms used infinitely more after the patch. Ok. You're absolutely correct. I still never see these units in play ever and thus they did not contribute at all to the increase in success of protoss players.
I'm in the wait-and-see category as well. A lot of games in the GSL involved their opponents doing questionable moves (why wouldn't you just attack-move the probes July...)
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds"
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The previous patch had nothing to do with protoss winning?
Yeah because it's not like we started to see immortals and warp prisms used infinitely more after the patch. Ok. You're absolutely correct. I still never see these units in play ever and thus they did not contribute at all to the increase in success of protoss players.
My point wasn't about all Protoss play ever in general, it was about today's GSL results specifically. It is the poor showing of Toss in GSL, particularly Code S, that has inspired most of the complaints. Today, protoss ran the table, and they did so without using anything that was really effected by the new patch. In other words, regardless of the patch's impact, it seems clear that top Korean Protoss players have also developed their play significantly from the days in which they were getting roflstomped left and right.
I love how idra clearly still spends tons of time on TL as he ends up first page on this thread, but rarely posts these days and probably hasn't said anything intelligent in his last 100 posts.
The previous patch had nothing to do with protoss winning?
Yeah because it's not like we started to see immortals and warp prisms used infinitely more after the patch. Ok. You're absolutely correct. I still never see these units in play ever and thus they did not contribute at all to the increase in success of protoss players.
My point wasn't about all Protoss play evver in general, it was about today's GSL results specifically. It is the poor showing of Toss in GSL, particularly Code S, that has inspired most of the complaints. Today, protoss ran the table, and they did so without using anything that was really effected by the new patch. In other words, regardless of the patch's impact, it seems clear that top Korean Protoss players have also developed their play significantly from the days in which they were getting roflstomped left and right.
I completely agree with what you are saying and I too have seen the increase of skill (and love it!), I suppose it was merely your wording that got under my skin. Apologies if I came off as a bit too aggressive.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
...I disagree. It's just that foreign terran players have no clue how to play their race. PlayXP folks(myself included) facepalm every time they get to watch a foreign Terran, except for maybe, MAYBE Thorzain.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
1) You're wearing your nickname very well! 2) I don't think we've been watching the same game evolving since beta, if you're really serious with that and aren't trolling.
-
Ofc, metagame shifts are deemed to happen, and when it happens, a race that wasn't at the top will probably be at the top for a few days/weeks, maybe even 1-2months, until people realize how to adjust to the shift.
The issue that a lot of people are having right now, is the fact that every time the metagame shifts, another race is at the top for a little while, until Terran players adjust, then Terran is at the top for a few months, until the next shift...
I don't mind this happening at all, as I'm far from a level that my gameplay would be limited by my race being a tiny bit weaker at the highest competition level, but I understand where people are coming from to bring that kind of comments.
However, I really can't understand where you are coming from, to say Protoss are doing the same builds since beta...
-
Anyway, I can't wait to see what this shift + the slight buffs in 1.4.2 will bring to the table.
On November 10 2011 01:13 windsupernova wrote: I'll quote myself from the patch topic:
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
and you only quote tournaments, where terrans don't where on the top. so i continue for you
IPL 4 Pacfic T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
Blizzcon 2011 T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
GSL October T 1st T 2nd T 3rd/4th
GSL August T 1st T 2nd T/Z 3rd/4th
TLPD rates aren't close at 50% yet. terran is always ahead the both other races. Stop acting as if terran is in bad shape. sad terran my ass.
I was mentioning only more recentish tournaments. I must admit I forgot to mention GSL august and Blizzcon, didn't watch IPL4.
TLPD winrates: T 52.9% P 51.8% Z 44.9%
All of them are pretty close to 50%, yeah P has been doing badly(I even acknowledge in my post which apparently you didn't read because I never said T was doing badly lol) but that is expected when the metagame shifts.
Also:
I didn't say terran was in a bad shape?
Further: I think you missed completely the point of my post, I was not claiming that all is fine and dandy. I was claiming that the state of the balance is not nearly as bad as whiners are making it out to be. Its clear that P, Z and T are all capable of winning championships and place well in tournaments. Try reading my post before trying to be ""smart" about your rebutal
On November 10 2011 01:46 Logros wrote: It's funny that finally Protoss aren't doing completely aweful again and suddenly people are acting like the last 4+ months nothing was wrong.
Not many people are acting that way. But what do you want us to do? Retroactively take away the trophies T and Z won?
P got better, not completely unreasonable assertion to make. We will have to wait of course but overall I think that thanks to the new format Code S will be much more balanced next season( If you only want to count Code S as the highest level of play)
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Aww... pure gold!
I wonder how many toss-TLers had this quote open with a nasty flame, then realized the name, gulped and refrained from posting... :D
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
...I disagree. It's just that foreign terran players have no clue how to play their race. PlayXP folks(myself included) facepalm every time they get to watch a foreign Terran, except for maybe, MAYBE Thorzain.
So you are saying its impossible for terrans in korea to be better than zergs/protoss but its ok for foreigner terrans to be all shit players? I hope you realise how stupid is what you just said.
On November 10 2011 01:13 windsupernova wrote: I'll quote myself from the patch topic:
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
and you only quote tournaments, where terrans don't where on the top. so i continue for you
IPL 4 Pacfic T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
Blizzcon 2011 T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
GSL October T 1st T 2nd T 3rd/4th
GSL August T 1st T 2nd T/Z 3rd/4th
TLPD rates aren't close at 50% yet. terran is always ahead the both other races. Stop acting as if terran is in bad shape. sad terran my ass.
I was mentioning only more recentish tournaments. I must admit I forgot to mention GSL august and Blizzcon, didn't watch IPL4.
TLPD winrates: T 52.9% P 51.8% Z 44.9%
All of them are pretty close to 50%, yeah P has been doing badly(I even acknowledge in my post which apparently you didn't read because I never said T was doing badly lol) but that is expected when the metagame shifts.
Also:
I didn't say terran was in a bad shape?
Further: I think you missed completely the point of my post, I was not claiming that all is fine and dandy. I was claiming that the state of the balance is not nearly as bad as whiners are making it out to be. Its clear that P, Z and T are all capable of winning championships and place well in tournaments. Try reading my post before trying to be ""smart" about your rebutal
The real issue is the huge influx of NA diamond and low masters protoss who come to the forums and whine about terran b/c they watched <insert tournament> even though PvZ has been far more difficult for a while now.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
I love this man ^^^ <3. In other news I agree with alot of people that with protoss going away from colsi heavy builds, it makes for better games. I am quite of fan of watching good protoss micro even though I play zerg lol. I think the meta game is going in a good direction.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
So if zerg loses blizzard should nerf p and t. If protoss loses they need to pull their heads out of their asses. Silly hypocrite.
When IdrA was a protoss player in the beta, he said that PvT was impossible to lose unless you fucked up majorly.
all the races a capable of winning and everything is quite balanced, but some people (or a lot) starts whinning as soon as opposite race win and their race does not win a tournament. Now protoss doing good in two tournaments and every protoss is again happy, when absolutelly nothing changed.
I guess if tomorrow toss loses again "i am a sad zealot" thread comes.
I think that would be premature until we see to what extent Terran players can adapt to the new trends in Protoss play. Also, I haven't seen many promising developments in PvZ yet. Still, it's a glimmer of hope, and perhaps with the patch will mark the beginning of a turnaround.
Do remember that all the P in the ro16 can still get knocked down into code A/up&downs, actually the chance of only 1 Z being directly qualified for code S next season is quite high...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
On November 10 2011 01:47 jamesr12 wrote: I love how idra clearly still spends tons of time on TL as he ends up first page on this thread, but rarely posts these days and probably hasn't said anything intelligent in his last 100 posts.
Why post intelligent and helpful things when you can complain about your race?
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
1) MMM in majority of games is innovative? I'm not trying to be sarcastic... But wouldn't Terran be the least innovative in terms of strats we see?
2) Are the high level because they are good? Or are they high level because they play terran?... I'm not claiming either to be true, but I am just pointing out the flawed thinking in your second point.
I'll admit a lot of players play MMM, but they manage to do so many different things with it. Take MVPDream v Boxer today, boxer did this mass drop onto mech with vikings style which has never been seen before! Top Terrans seem to take a problem, and think of a way to fix it: tanks own bio -> make bio fly; vikings own flying things -> make vikings too.
& the argument that players were top because they played Terran was certainly viable in beta, but we've seen a lot of those players fall out of favour (painuser, strelok, etc). Perhaps Terran benefits the most from good mechanics and multitasking, and thus is the most stable race, explaining why so many of the top koreans are terrans? Who knows, I suppose I'm just speculating.
All these mad zerglings and mad marines are just jealous because they don't have a fanclub like the cute lil sad zealot. :D
Today was a happy day for all the zealots over the world, but the the general mood will stay pretty sad untill we got another GSL Champion and/or the tourney stats in general will be more balanced. And to stay pessimistic, there is quite a good chance that all Toss will still go down to code a this season thx to the new system
Maybe terrans are just not used to colossi, since they emp'd the shoi out of toss for the last 3-4 months because of our HT builds. Once colossi are frequently used terrans start adding vikings before ghost and we'll have the same state of the game as the pre-archive time.
Protoss players will never be happy until they have a 100% win rate.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:13 windsupernova wrote: I'll quote myself from the patch topic:
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
and you only quote tournaments, where terrans don't where on the top. so i continue for you
IPL 4 Pacfic T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
Blizzcon 2011 T 1st Z 2nd Z 3rd
GSL October T 1st T 2nd T 3rd/4th
GSL August T 1st T 2nd T/Z 3rd/4th
TLPD rates aren't close at 50% yet. terran is always ahead the both other races. Stop acting as if terran is in bad shape. sad terran my ass.
and ontopic:
i think it's too early to say protoss have a comeback. it was just the first round. and we'll have to wait if one protoss can make it to the gsl finals or not, but i think the capabilities of protoss are still too limited to reach that.
Why should Terran rates be 50%? Why should any race have 50%? What happens if the T players are a lot better than anyone else? You have to watch the games and analyze them from an overall player skill perspective before making such broad statements. Is Flash OP or is it Terran? Is NesTea OP or is it Zerg? I would argue that Terran in SC2 have far better players than either race. You have MMA, Happy, MVP, TaeJa, GanZi, sC, PuMa, ForGG, etc. (Bomber has been playing badly of late) which if you watch their games simply have better multi-tasking, micro, macro, game-sense, etc. than most other players from other races.
I never understood the argument ceteris paribus that each race should have 50% win rates (or close thereof). It makes no logical sense and doesn't hold by itself.
It's not only this Code S season where Toss do well. Code A, the last matches of GSTL, MLG 2P in the top 2, ESWC 2P in the top 4, ROG thingie 2P in the top 4, ESV finals 2P in the top 2 etc
A big problem they had in GSL was a bunch of bad maps for Toss, this season there are atleast 2 maps that are amazing for Toss(Daybreak and that one new maps) and TDA is also really good for Toss.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
...I disagree. It's just that foreign terran players have no clue how to play their race. PlayXP folks(myself included) facepalm every time they get to watch a foreign Terran, except for maybe, MAYBE Thorzain.
So you are saying its impossible for terrans in korea to be better than zergs/protoss but its ok for foreigner terrans to be all shit players? I hope you realise how stupid is what you just said.
Haha. This is so true. I've seen this argument by P players countless times. In their heads, it makes sense somehow.
On November 10 2011 02:02 Alpina wrote: it's so funny..
all the races a capable of winning and everything is quite balanced, but some people (or a lot) starts whinning as soon as opposite race win and their race does not win a tournament. Now protoss doing good in two tournaments and every protoss is again happy, when absolutelly nothing changed.
I guess if tomorrow toss loses again "i am a sad zealot" thread comes.
Did you even read the thread? I haven't seen a single happy Protoss player in here. Lots of smug Z and T players telling the Protoss to stop whining, but if any Protoss are in the streets celebrating, it's not going on in this thread.
On November 10 2011 02:03 TheLaw wrote: I honestly think this whole sad zealot thing is extremely whiny and childish. Every race has it's slumps sometimes... deal with it instead of crying.
Anyway, kinda cautiously optimistic all round, not just for Protoss but for Zerg as well. I reckon reducing EMP radius could turn out to make a significant difference in both TvP and TvZ.
Significantly negative win rates since april in both matchups in all regions isn't counteracted by 1 tournament win and the success in the round of 32. IMO PvT isn't that bad at all really. The funny thing is you have some protoss players like sage that dominate PvZ while almost everyone else has been getting annihilated for months. Even JYP is having trouble with zerg now. If only ACE and Squirtle would come back on the scene they always did a good job of keeping the zerg in line.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds"
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
the way I see it was that the blink nerf was not only for pvt but also pvz. (didn't huk used blink rush against terran today in gsl?) i actually thought the 4 gate nerf and pylon radius was to make pvp better. (and honestly, 90% of my zvp were 4 gates...I could see blizzard nerfing it just to make sure toss has more dimensions in their games)
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? Not sure about MM through, I do feel that early trade, gateway is weaker but I don't really see protoss losing to terran by MM alone. Most often PvT loss is the ghost emp changing the entire engagement outcome.
and honestly, toss players had been improving a lot recently, even without needing to use those newly buff'd units like warp prism. I won't be surprised to see more toss players to get better results.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Is this some sick joke? Everyone knows that all the Protoss players in the GSL are 10 times as good as their opponents. It's important to take into account the relative skill of the players before trying to discuss Balance. It's not PvT or PvZ -- it's fucking Sangho vs some Drone whore / EMP whore. We're talking about players that have been denied their right to win on a level playing field. Sangho and Huk being barely able to beat far inferior players says more about how their incredible skill than balance.
On November 10 2011 02:02 Alpina wrote: it's so funny..
all the races a capable of winning and everything is quite balanced, but some people (or a lot) starts whinning as soon as opposite race win and their race does not win a tournament. Now protoss doing good in two tournaments and every protoss is again happy, when absolutelly nothing changed.
I guess if tomorrow toss loses again "i am a sad zealot" thread comes.
Did you even read the thread? I haven't seen a single happy Protoss player in here. Lots of smug Z and T players telling the Protoss to stop whining, but if any Protoss are in the streets celebrating, it's not going on in this thread.
I think it's a lot of people who have no idea what they are talking about especially when they broadly state that each race should ~50% win rate. If you brought Flash, BaBy, Midas, Mind, etc. over to SC2 would the same argument still apply? They have to nerf the race because the players who play them are too good? What sort of argument is that? Handicap players because they are too good? If the players ceteris paribus have the same skill then yes, we should see ~50%, but how many people have actually bothered to go through all the games and rate each players skill relative to others? I usually do not miss many Korean games, and I can clearly see a massive skill difference between a lot of the top Terrans, and the top players of other races though Zerg is not too far behind in player skill. Protoss players just have far less skill than their counter-parts, and in the last few months they have finally started to catch up, thus you see more wins.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
On November 10 2011 02:03 TheLaw wrote: I honestly think this whole sad zealot thing is extremely whiny and childish. Every race has it's slumps sometimes... deal with it instead of crying.
Anyway, kinda cautiously optimistic all round, not just for Protoss but for Zerg as well. I reckon reducing EMP radius could turn out to make a significant difference in both TvP and TvZ.
Terrans been in a slump since January according to the graph
I love how Blizzard has to use Statistical Data and Analytical Thinking in order to improve the game while the geniuses among you can do it without bothering with any of that useless stuff. (yes sarcasm)
Case and Point:http://i.imgur.com/JW38u.png ZvP is still in favor of Z for the 7th month running and this needs to be addressed. PvT hopefully emp nerf will help P in that match up.
For the record: I play mid master Terran so i am not saying this because i want my own race buffed.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
On November 10 2011 02:28 QTIP. wrote: Is this some sick joke? Everyone knows that all the Protoss players in the GSL are 10 times as good as their opponents. It's important to take into account the relative skill of the players before trying to discuss Balance. It's not PvT or PvZ -- it's fucking Sangho vs some Drone whore / EMP whore. We're talking about players that have been denied their right to win on a level playing field. Sangho and Huk being barely able to beat far inferior players says more about how their incredible skill than balance.
Drones aren't one the same level as EMP.
EMP is a flawless ability without drawback because you trade energy for energy or shield. That's free damage.
Drones are workers. Making them prevents you from building troops. It's a severe drawback.
I dont think so. Most of the games with protoss have been won by the opponent playing terrible. Puzzle got through on two easy games and Huk beat clide because Clide was playing bad. Hero barely made it through. If crazy played like the 1st game I dont think hero wouldve made it through.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
If you look at how Protoss won games last spring, you would realise why people like Idra and Jinro are saying how Protoss haven't necessarily been playing their race to the potential Zerg and Terran have reached. I still haven't seen a game where the Protoss deserved to win but lost anyway (except vs 1/1/1). Unless there are literally ZERO good PvZ builds, I see Zerg players winning games due to metagame advantage, and that the cycle will come full circle, just like it always does (unless P truly is very weak). Still, a few balance patches didn't hurt.
Anything to discourage deathball play is nice. Mothership vs Z will be standard if they infestor broodlord turtle.
Well, HuK has always proved his ability, but there are no gold mins for Terran in GSL, so it could very from league to league, tournament to tournament. But the patch should prove to with some better pushes and defenses for them though! PROTOS FIGHTING! zerg)
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Hahaha nothing better than Idra raging about protoss chobo player.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
What an absurd hypocrite you are.
this is all happening before patch 1.4.2 hit in Korea. this is why blizzard needs to leave the game ALONE. for a longer time. and dont go nerfing/buffing stuff so often. players need time to fix shit themselves. if they cant do it, then it might be imbalanced and needs a patch. NOT when platinum protosses cry on forums that terran is OP
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds"
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
the way I see it was that the blink nerf was not only for pvt but also pvz. (didn't huk used blink rush against terran today in gsl?) i actually thought the 4 gate nerf and pylon radius was to make pvp better. (and honestly, 90% of my zvp were 4 gates...I could see blizzard nerfing it just to make sure toss has more dimensions in their games)
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? Not sure about MM through, I do feel that early trade, gateway is weaker but I don't really see protoss losing to terran by MM alone. Most often PvT loss is the ghost emp changing the entire engagement outcome.
and honestly, toss players had been improving a lot recently, even without needing to use those newly buff'd units like warp prism. I won't be surprised to see more toss players to get better results.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Word.
D: is this real life???
If you watch Jinro's stream you will hear and see that he is atleast as opinionated as idra if not more (I would say more) about protoss.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Time for zerg to stop overdroning and losing for no good reason
On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote: the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade?
While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything.
The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes:
- The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne. - A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up. - Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc) - Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure).
I certainly hope this is just a fluke, more Protoss winning means more Protoss games in televised matches, and Protoss is an esport killer for us spectators. PvX are dreadful MU's, and I just can't stand watching the ball either winning nor losing.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds"
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
the way I see it was that the blink nerf was not only for pvt but also pvz. (didn't huk used blink rush against terran today in gsl?) i actually thought the 4 gate nerf and pylon radius was to make pvp better. (and honestly, 90% of my zvp were 4 gates...I could see blizzard nerfing it just to make sure toss has more dimensions in their games)
the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? Not sure about MM through, I do feel that early trade, gateway is weaker but I don't really see protoss losing to terran by MM alone. Most often PvT loss is the ghost emp changing the entire engagement outcome.
and honestly, toss players had been improving a lot recently, even without needing to use those newly buff'd units like warp prism. I won't be surprised to see more toss players to get better results.
On November 10 2011 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Word.
D: is this real life???
If you watch Jinro's stream you will hear and see that he is atleast as opinionated as idra if not more (I would say more) about protoss.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote: the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade?
While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything.
The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes:
- The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne. - A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up. - Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc) - Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure).
The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 02:39 HowardRoark wrote: I certainly hope this is just a fluke, more Protoss winning means more Protoss games in televised matches, and Protoss is an esport killer for us spectators. PvX are dreadful MU's, and I just can't stand watching the ball either winning nor losing.
Yea that's the sad part of the game atm, the colossus is such a boring but "good" unit that affects the race in all match ups incredibly adversely. I really cannot think of a single way that I LIKE to watch the colossus playout in a match up.
Garbage unit to play with, watch and think about. Get rid of it.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
This. Stalkers have some SHITTY dps. Not only that, but it scales terribly. Their strength is the blink, and anti-air capabilities. But they still are suuuuuper cost inefficient when compared to marines or even roaches.
On November 10 2011 02:40 Daralii wrote: The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc.
That's exactly what I thought. I think it may also have nerfed 2rax in TvP slightly too, but the difference isn't significant.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
And this, combined with the posts from Idra and Jinro in this thread, is why Protoss is in its current state.
Blizzard seems to be taking feedback from pros who are looking out for themselves, rather than truly wanting the game to become all that it can be.
On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote: the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade?
While the Immortal range upgrade certainly helped a bit, the Barracks build time nerf was for FIVE ingame seconds. Delaying ANY push, especially one like the 1-1-1, but five seconds does barely anything.
The 1-1-1 has seen less dominance recently for a few reasons, in my eyes:
- The amount of abuse Puma got from the community for 1-1-1ing MC twice at IEM Cologne. - A general desire from players to be seen as less "cheesy" and win straight up. - Maps growing in size (TDA, Calm Before Storm etc) - Protoss players expecting it so often and learning how to blind counter it (MC style: 1gate FE no matter what, add on 4gates and a Robo, make Obs then Immortals then either use the army to defend the 1-1-1 or to put on pressure).
The barracks nerfs were mainly due to 2-rax TvZ. The 1/1/1 itself has never been the reason for a nerf, and only resulted in the immortal range buff iirc.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Every BW Terran hates protoss because they spend all their time setting up perfect army positioning, laying mines, defending dts, watching for reaver/ht drops, and then protoss seemingly 1 a 2a 3a's into their army while casting stasis screaming LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and kills them.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who are angry they arent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
they've only been above 50% in the GSL... a big reason because the korean terran players are just better than the koreans of the other races. it's true.
you heard it here first! RandomForumGuy confirmed: Korean Terrans>Korean NonTerrans lol
protoss should make a strong showing this season, at least 1 toss in top 8 for sure, and probably one in top 4. after that it'll be up to practice and preparation over pretty much anything.
I called this before the season started. it was obvious that protoss did poorly due to their own players faults not because of the race, if you looked at the strategies and reactions impartially this became very obvious. so yeah i agree with IdrA. learn to analyze your races strategies and why they aren't working instead of complaining about balance.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Idra hates Protoss because he perceives them to be an A-move race, where they do nothing but make units and attack after maxing out. This stems from BW where Protoss was also the most versatile and cheesiest race, and Terran had to play a flawless early game to not die to a lot of all ins. Basically, he hates the race's playstyle and the fact that they could win games by doing nothing if the opponent didn't react correctly. Imbalanced? No. Abusive obnoxious piece of ****? Yes.
I didn't know Orcs are interested in the fate of Protoss. (based on spelling ) I'd say it's a bit early. There aren't enough notable protosses overall, and not enough very good ones. Zerg and especially Terran have multiple superstars, whereas Protoss have only a couple. Even if a Protoss wins the GSL now, that won't change. Oz is very promising, a breath of fresh air for toss.
I'm really happy protoss players arn't playing passively. For about the whole first year of the game protoss players would sit on their ass, and would eventually attack with their whole blob. And people figured out how to deal with that. Hence the sad zealot period. One example how times has changed is in pvt with around a 9 minute warp prism(just before reactor starports can kick in early on), you can pin the terran back and buy you TIME to say, get a twilight council or like a forge or start onwards to colossi. Huzzah for protoss innovention!
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
What an absurd hypocrite you are.
this is all happening before patch 1.4.2 hit in Korea. this is why blizzard needs to leave the game ALONE. for a longer time. and dont go nerfing/buffing stuff so often. players need time to fix shit themselves. if they cant do it, then it might be imbalanced and needs a patch. NOT when platinum protosses cry on forums that terran is OP
I agree somewhat, the metagame normally does sort this stuff out. Nevertheless some people are of course going to whine because, tbh, terran was clearly OP, sometimes its hard to ignore that when it is so clear for so long. I also think that this surge of protoss success may well not be sustained for too long, what is happening now is other races dont yet know how to deal with the new stuff toss is throwing at them, when they do, the balance will normalize. The thing is "normalized" balance has always favoured terran since the game came out, Terran has never really had a slump and when the other races were supposedly doing really well, terran could still compete, so what im getting at is, I honestly belive terran is the strongest race, regardless of metagame. When there is a genuine imbalance (which has yet to be shown conclusively) then actual changes to the game are of course necessary, you cant just leave everything up to metagame.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
And this, combined with the posts from Idra and Jinro in this thread, is why Protoss is in its current state.
Blizzard seems to be taking feedback from pros who are looking out for themselves, rather than truly wanting the game to become all that it can be.
Just because Flux Vanes was conveniently removed right after CatZ told David Kim it was too strong doesn't mean they listen to the pros... >_>
On a serious note, it's been a problem with Blizz in recent years. A lot of the time they seem to forsake their original plans due to criticism from the community, which is unfortunate since most gaming communities have no damn idea what they want.
protoss players win a couple of games and suddenly the slump is over and every protoss is happy. thanks for this awesome thread.
On November 10 2011 02:39 HowardRoark wrote: I certainly hope this is just a fluke, more Protoss winning means more Protoss games in televised matches, and Protoss is an esport killer for us spectators. PvX are dreadful MU's, and I just can't stand watching the ball either winning nor losing.
bullshit. it´s an esport killer to see one race dominating all the time and another one just doing terrible.
On November 10 2011 02:28 QTIP. wrote: Is this some sick joke? Everyone knows that all the Protoss players in the GSL are 10 times as good as their opponents. It's important to take into account the relative skill of the players before trying to discuss Balance. It's not PvT or PvZ -- it's fucking Sangho vs some Drone whore / EMP whore. We're talking about players that have been denied their right to win on a level playing field. Sangho and Huk being barely able to beat far inferior players says more about how their incredible skill than balance.
Drones aren't one the same level as EMP.
EMP is a flawless ability without drawback because you trade energy for energy or shield. That's free damage.
Drones are workers. Making them prevents you from building troops. It's a severe drawback.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
LMAO from the king of zerg whine and refusal to do anything but corrupter/roach/hydra
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
And the "Most times that a single post was quoted in a thread" award is all yours. Looking for a pro Protoss to weigh in here, already saw Jinro's +1
On November 10 2011 01:10 TideRoll wrote: I'm confused, what's a Zelot?
What I'd imagine to be the phonetic American pronunciation of Zealot is.
It's pronounced sea-lot though, so wrong either way.
That's how Scandinavians pronounce it, and technically, it's incorrect.
Zealot = "zellit"
Proof?
On November 10 2011 01:47 jamesr12 wrote: I love how idra clearly still spends tons of time on TL as he ends up first page on this thread, but rarely posts these days and probably hasn't said anything intelligent in his last 100 posts.
Protoss in sc2 as a whole tends to spend waaaay to much time abusing any new strategy that gets them wins instead of working on developing a standard play and improving their strategies, it causes them to go in cycles where they are winning alot or losing alot depending on if their new FOTM strategy is new or been figured out.
SO after 4 months suddenly everything is fine because huk pvpt and mc 2 base all ined through mlg and a few protoss won free games in the gsl? Did you guys SEE these games?!
Oz won his first game because his opponent didnt fly his orbital for like 5 minutes and his second game because he took his 3rd at 7 minute and his opponent didnt do anything about it. Do I need to say anything about the july games? etc etc.
Yes Im happy but why does anyone think that everything will now change because some protoss won some pretty easy games?
Well, unless there will be some consistency in P wins I don't see reason for calling out the Happy Zealot. When comes to arguing about best player everybody brings up consistensy issues with performance, but now suddenly only few succesful events makes everyone go 'waaaaaaagh'. Seriously - just wait and see if P manages to show some results in something like next 3 months or so.
People have very short memories when it comes to current racial "imbalance" trends. It takes a really long time for anything to really have time to settle and possibly draw some conclusions.
I think Protoss players are still innovating and have a little way to go. If there is much innovation and still no progress then there might be a problem. But for now I think the racial balance is pretty decent for such a complex game that is tough to balance.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc.
I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do.
Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go.
That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard.
The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready.
For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving.
Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
This. Stalkers have some SHITTY dps. Not only that, but it scales terribly. Their strength is the blink, and anti-air capabilities. But they still are suuuuuper cost inefficient when compared to marines or even roaches.
Its true that on a one by one basis Stalker dps is crappy for cost and scales badly.
But this ignores that Stalkers are a fairly high range unit, which combined with their high mobility/blink means that there will typically be a lot of them able to focus fire on the same target. When combined with CB giving Protoss a way to get ahead on upgrades consistently, and there are several Stalker upgrade timings in all matchups that are quite deadly. On balance, the "Stalker upgrades suck!" thing is wildly overstated. No, they aren't as amazing as stimmed marines, who might have less range than Stalkers but who take up so little space that they can all pack into a tight little ball. But compared to, say, Roaches, its actually pretty comparable--Roaches benefit more from upgrades, but even with speed on creep it is typically much harder for as many of them to focus fire a single target compared to Stalkers.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
And the "Most times that a single post was quoted in a thread" award is all yours. Looking for a pro Protoss to weigh in here, already saw Jinro's +1
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Can't stand the guy but he has a great point here.... Now that toss has finally figured out how to do a little aggression combined with the new patch the free wins are going to stream in once more.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Best part of this thread.
I think that this dark period of losses has resulted in two serious protoss gains. One, this patch. Two, more importantly, the evolution of protoss strategy by forced innovation.
On November 10 2011 02:53 PrinceXizor wrote: Protoss in sc2 as a whole tends to spend waaaay to much time abusing any new strategy that gets them wins instead of working on developing a standard play and improving their strategies, it causes them to go in cycles where they are winning alot or losing alot depending on if their new FOTM strategy is new or been figured out.
So let me see this, half the community says Protoss needs to innovate!
Half says Protoss innovations are garbage they need to innovate better!
I guess you could say this true about PvZ to some extent but inreality its more like protoss players are trying everything under the sun versus zerg and something new comes and starts fighting off the zerg virus until zerg evovles into a new strain.
PvT isn't gimmicky at all protoss just doesn't do as well. Everyone remembers that before november during GSL Open 1 and 2 that protoss was doing just as badly as it is now right?
On November 10 2011 02:55 awesomoecalypse wrote: Its true that on a one by one basis Stalker dps is crappy for cost and scales badly.
But this ignores that Stalkers are a fairly high range unit, which combined with their high mobility/blink means that there will typically be a lot of them able to focus fire on the same target. When combined with CB giving Protoss a way to get ahead on upgrades consistently, and there are several Stalker upgrade timings in all matchups that are quite deadly. On balance, the "Stalker upgrades suck!" thing is wildly overstated. No, they aren't as amazing as stimmed marines, who might have less range than Stalkers but who take up so little space that they can all pack into a tight little ball. But compared to, say, Roaches, its actually pretty comparable--Roaches benefit more from upgrades, but even with speed on creep it is typically much harder for as many of them to focus fire a single target compared to Stalkers.
You're listing all the other positives of Stalkers. None of them are DPS. The DPS of Stalkers is shit -> if Dimaga did complain about it, that's some BS. If Dimaga had complained about any of these, then yeah. Sure. But allegedly he didn't.
This topic wouldn't even have gone past one page if people would stop quoting IdrA five times per page. It's hard to take these posts seriously considering he's been doing it since BW, and the statistics have almost always disagreed with the Protoss hate.
I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
The Idra quote was classic Idra and have to love it, it really did brighten up my day! I don't understand why there's always thread's going on about how drastic the patch changes are going to make everything. Give it a few days we'll see what happens maybe it will make a substantial difference but meh the only real point to this topic was Idra then Beasty then Jinro.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 03:04 Xpace wrote: I don't know. If it took all this: + Show Spoiler +
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
Balance
PROTOSS Forge The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
TERRAN Ghost EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
...to make your race show signs of moving forward, will you be happy?
All what? The shield cost correction is minimal and will have no impact on the game and the EMP radius is not a nerf to just help out P.Its the most sane and intuitive thing to be done since the bunker salvage change lol. People just practice and get better.If protoss starts winning again it will have less to do with the balance changes and more with the time they spent figuring out shit.
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
So flawed, would have to take out the TvT and ZvZ results, also, if there was only 1 toss and that toss advanced, you'd probably go "100% herp derp". Really, that means nothing.
On topic; I think it was mentioned before and this still applies, Sad zealot is now the cautiously hopeful zealot.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
And the "Most times that a single post was quoted in a thread" award is all yours. Looking for a pro Protoss to weigh in here, already saw Jinro's +1
On November 10 2011 01:24 Brotocol wrote:
On November 10 2011 01:18 chokke wrote:
On November 10 2011 01:12 hippocritical wrote:
On November 10 2011 01:10 TideRoll wrote: I'm confused, what's a Zelot?
What I'd imagine to be the phonetic American pronunciation of Zealot is.
It's pronounced sea-lot though, so wrong either way.
That's how Scandinavians pronounce it, and technically, it's incorrect.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Why doesn't IdrA have a special account like incontrol or Tyler do? He's just as good if not better.
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Why doesn't IdrA have a special account like incontrol or Tyler do? He's just as good if not better.
On November 10 2011 03:04 Xpace wrote: I don't know. If it took all this: + Show Spoiler +
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
Balance
PROTOSS Forge The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
TERRAN Ghost EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
...to make your race show signs of moving forward, will you be happy?
All what? The shield cost correction is minimal and will have no impact on the game and the EMP radius is not a nerf to just help out P.Its the most sane and intuitive thing to be done since the bunker salvage change lol. People just practice and get better.If protoss starts winning again it will have less to do with the balance changes and more with the time they spent figuring out shit.
That, or 1.4.2 just did the most well-executed timing attack.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Word.
:D
The Sad Zealot was just a bad idea, don't need to see a happy one either.
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
So you dismiss every Z/T unit as being bad and tell P to innovate? Protoss were using most of their units anyways...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
That is not true at all. 8 seconds stun doesn't deal enough damage before the zerg army get destroyed one-sided. the muta base race play is only rising again because infestors style is not that viable anymore and this is the new strat to go against toss for now. Mamaship is not the only possible way to kill mass mamalord/infestors, you get to see a normal deathball consists of immortal stalkers and colossus beating it very often.
It depends what you mean by "happy zealot". If you're talking about the professional P players who compete and try to make a living out of starcraft, yeah sure they're doing better and the new patch will not only give them more options in late game, but also boost their confidence.
Now if by "happy zealot" you're talking about the whole brotoss community, including the fans, then I beg to differ, at least in my case. For spectators, winning is not everything and although seeing more protosses advancing in GSL is cool, I still find protoss play to be boring to watch, and thus I'm still a bit "sad". I can't blame the players for using mass stalkers/collossuses in every match-up on every map if that's the most efficient way to win games, but no matter what I have almost no enthousiasm when watching them play. It's getting better lately regarding multitasking and drop plays, but I'm still not convinced. Fuck, I hate to admit it but my favorite players in sc2 are T's and Z's, whereas in bw I have always been a deep and thick retarded P's fan.
I find it kind of appalling how many people actually take idra's comment seriously or actually agree with them. Then again, most people agreed with him when he said Morrow was at best a gold zerg, or how huk is a terrible player, or how hatch first is the optimal build vs 2 rax and the list goes on..........
Then again, if in doubt trust idra over year-long statistics because protoss and terran has been OP and will be OP for years my friends.
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been.
But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons:
1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off.
Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well.
I fell like it is the complete opposite, Terran have be MMM'ing into viking since beta.. and only recently have been adding ghosts. Can you tell me about their PvT innovations?
Meanwhile protoss have been going blink colo builds, zealot ht, fast pheonix harass, mothership carrier build, dt expo builds, really...
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
kind of have to agree, I think Protoss players in general have a hard time changing their playstyles.
On November 08 2011 08:29 Plexa wrote: I hope this makes me a happy zealot
One can only hope.
You do realize that the final result of *all the above* balance changes is that... Terran has to make two more ghosts now, and Protoss gets two extra gateway units after the fifteen minute mark?
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
Why Raven when you can mass scan? Science Vessel is viable in BW not because it is mobile detection, but because it has awesome spells. When the Ravens spells are worth getting a Raven for, including starport + tech lab time, then it will be viable. This may not necessarily need any patching. It's hard to innovate something new if there's no need to because other strategies work better. It's when those strategies don't work that we see new things.
On November 10 2011 03:04 Xpace wrote: I don't know. If it took all this: + Show Spoiler +
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
Balance
PROTOSS Forge The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250
TERRAN Ghost EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
...to make your race show signs of moving forward, will you be happy?
All what? The shield cost correction is minimal and will have no impact on the game and the EMP radius is not a nerf to just help out P.Its the most sane and intuitive thing to be done since the bunker salvage change lol. People just practice and get better.If protoss starts winning again it will have less to do with the balance changes and more with the time they spent figuring out shit.
That, or 1.4.2 just did the most well-executed timing attack.
On November 10 2011 02:49 figq wrote: I didn't know Orcs are interested in the fate of Protoss. (based on spelling ) I'd say it's a bit early. There aren't enough notable protosses overall, and not enough very good ones. Zerg and especially Terran have multiple superstars, whereas Protoss have only a couple. Even if a Protoss wins the GSL now, that won't change. Oz is very promising, a breath of fresh air for toss.
Yea, it has been said before and I can only agree. When a foreigner (Huk) is better than all koreans of the same particular race. Something is wrong! Yea Huk is the best foreigner atm but he isn't on a level above other top foreigners (Idra, Stephano, Sen, Thorzain...and several others). Have this in mind and compare that to zerg; Nestea, DRG and Losira all are better than their foreign peers by quite a margin (not in ZvT, in which Idra is one of the best).
And then look at Terran. Do I even need to say anything? The gap between foreign and korean zergs and terrans are there (but not as large as 2+ months ago) but there is virtually no gap between the protoss.
Remember Anypro? One stargate build after another. Inca, one cheese after another. Old MC, one 4/5/6/7 gate after another. HongUN, one all-in after another. Genius, one funky build after another. San(Zenith), disappeared right after KA nerf SangHo was the only one willing to play macro and not practice the next variant of stargate/gateway all-in. Too bad his decision making is isn't the best.
Now HuK (the only real macro protoss) is the 'bosstoss' so korean 'toss Attention!
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
that's not true. Protoss builds have changed over time! 6gate has been developed after they found out that they can support more than 4gates if they go 2base. 7gate has been developed after they found out that they can get that additional base faster. You see? COMPLETLY DIFFERENT now
On November 10 2011 03:12 MethodSC wrote: So toss started doing something other than 2 base timing attack and are now starting to win games. Well golly gosh I wonder why.
They won mostly because their opponent played awful, seriously, did you guys even watch the games? How could one try to discuss balance after e.g. the oz games?! He won because his opponent played bad
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
that's not true. Protoss builds have changed over time! 6gate has been developed after they found out that they can support more than 4gates if they go 2base. 7gate has been developed after they found out that they can get that additional base faster. You see? COMPLETLY DIFFERENT now
Actually,6 gate was developed because mutas very annoying the fuck out of people.
On November 10 2011 03:17 sekritzzz wrote: I find it kind of appalling how many people actually take idra's comment seriously or actually agree with them. Then again, most people agreed with him when he said Morrow was at best a gold zerg, or how huk is a terrible player, or how hatch first is the optimal build vs 2 rax and the list goes on..........
Then again, if in doubt trust idra over year-long statistics because protoss and terran has been OP and will be OP for years my friends.
Not to nitpick, but hatch first kind of is the best build against 2rax. ^^
On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote: time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Why doesn't IdrA have a special account like incontrol or Tyler do? He's just as good if not better.
your account status on TL has to do with your relationship with the staff and community not your skill as a player
On November 10 2011 03:03 ooozer wrote: I don't get it why people are bitching about toss players not bring diversity into their games. Protoss always used every unit they had, except for Carriers and Momaship, though timings have been practised and rejected due to ineffectivity. T always had an edge over toss, even before the mass usuage of ghost/emp. MMMV beat Gateway Colossi (Yeah protoss didn't use HT well with KA back then. KA nowadays would be freaking imba). After Archon got more vialable and toss opted for archive tech, ghost started their mass rape. The PvZ death ball imbalance was not a imbalance at all. Roach/Hydra/Ling/Corrupter simply sux against Colossi/Stalker/Sentry/VRay. Due to underusage of infestor, FG got buffed, though FG was already great, not dmg-wise but 8 sec stun which basically ownes anything with Ultra or BLord.Now even deathball fights slightly favor infestor heavy zerg balls, not to mention the mass muta-base-race-play. Z's and T's keep pretending that Toss does not play to it's fullest, but does terran and zerg do so? I still don't see many ravens in TvZ, or sensor towers (permanent knowledge about what's going on sux eh?), nydus is still underused aswell as ultras. What's left for toss? Carriers are expensive and usually immediatley counterd by terran and zerg race design, mothership can be used as a mid to lategame harass unit, or the only possible way to kill mass BLord/Infestor (Archontoilet). the truth is, protoss do not profit from long term macro games, but from gimmicky x-base timing all-ins.
You don't see much nydus because you have to be flat out not paying attention to let nyduses go up. That doesn't happen often at top level game play.
And Ultras suck, they are not only too big, their AI is flat out awful.
4 sec fungal with more damage >>> 8 second fungal.
Lots of T's use sensor towers, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ravens? u srs? I've seen plenty of Terrans trying to use Ravens, it never works out.
Toss has had WPs. Only White Ra was using them though. Sure, they were weak as hell, but he still made them effective. Protoss has been doing the same builds since beta and expecting them to still work. They still FFE FULLY KNOWING that Zerg will get 3 base and lol at you, then complain about it after, instead of figuring out 1 gate expands.
Toss players in the GSL are flat out better than the Terrans their beating, and that's because they are innovating.
Why Raven when you can mass scan? Science Vessel is viable in BW not because it is mobile detection, but because it has awesome spells. When the Ravens spells are worth getting a Raven for, including starport + tech lab time, then it will be viable. This may not necessarily need any patching. It's hard to innovate something new if there's no need to because other strategies work better. It's when those strategies don't work that we see new things.
Many koreans start to get ravens in tvt to get air control and use it against marauders too, it looks like it is getting a role.
On November 10 2011 03:17 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: It depends what you mean by "happy zealot". If you're talking about the professional P players who compete and try to make a living out of starcraft, yeah sure they're doing better and the new patch will not only give them more options in late game, but also boost their confidence.
Now if by "happy zealot" you're talking about the whole brotoss community, including the fans, then I beg to differ, at least in my case. For spectators, winning is not everything and although seeing more protosses advancing in GSL is cool, I still find protoss play to be boring to watch, and thus I'm still a bit "sad". I can't blame the players for using mass stalkers/collossuses in every match-up on every map if that's the most efficient way to win games, but no matter what I have almost no enthousiasm when watching them play. It's getting better lately regarding multitasking and drop plays, but I'm still not convinced. Fuck, I hate to admit it but my favorite players in sc2 are T's and Z's, whereas in bw I have always been a deep and thick retarded P's fan.
On November 10 2011 01:13 windsupernova wrote: I'll quote myself from the patch topic:
On November 10 2011 00:59 windsupernova wrote: Seriously shut up with the crying, even in Code S this season due to the new format a lot of Terrans have dropped out to Code A
Hell one can even argue more that Zerg is now doing badly, but you know? I won't because I actually watched the freaking games.And with Code A full of Z and P I can see a lot of new Z and P getting to Code S next season.
IEM NY:
Zerg in 1st and 2nd and 3rd, P at 4th
IEM Guangzhou Zerg in 1st P in 2nd T in 3rd P at 4th
MLG Orlando:
P in 1st and 2nd place T in 3rd Z in 4th
P and Z are obviously winning stuff at a competitive level. Z and P have been doing fine in Code S too, and in Code A so far all the races are pretty evenly distributed(17 P 16 T 15 Z)
So stop acting as if it is impossible to win as either P or Z because its not. Stop blaming balance because of your ladder FAILS.Hell, even winrates from TLPD are around 50%. Stop acting as if the game was terribly imbalanced when all evidence shows that its not even that bad.
Sad Zealot my ass.
So flawed, would have to take out the TvT and ZvZ results, also, if there was only 1 toss and that toss advanced, you'd probably go "100% herp derp". Really, that means nothing.
On topic; I think it was mentioned before and this still applies, Sad zealot is now the cautiously hopeful zealot.
It was not meant to be a scientific analysis man, read the post. It was just to show that stuff is not as bad as people seem to think. But whatever, why do I even bother? People come here convinced that their race has 0% chance to win because OP/UP.