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Is this some sick joke? Everyone knows that all the Protoss players in the GSL are 10 times as good as their opponents. It's important to take into account the relative skill of the players before trying to discuss Balance. It's not PvT or PvZ -- it's fucking Sangho vs some Drone whore / EMP whore. We're talking about players that have been denied their right to win on a level playing field. Sangho and Huk being barely able to beat far inferior players says more about how their incredible skill than balance.
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On November 10 2011 02:18 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:17 Ziktomini wrote:
Protoss players will never be happy until they have a 100% win rate.
Sounds like zerg players.
Terran players seem to be on the rise as well now that they might drop under 55% win.
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On November 10 2011 02:24 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:02 Alpina wrote:
it's so funny..
all the races a capable of winning and everything is quite balanced, but some people (or a lot) starts whinning as soon as opposite race win and their race does not win a tournament. Now protoss doing good in two tournaments and every protoss is again happy, when absolutelly nothing changed.
I guess if tomorrow toss loses again "i am a sad zealot" thread comes. Did you even read the thread? I haven't seen a single happy Protoss player in here. Lots of smug Z and T players telling the Protoss to stop whining, but if any Protoss are in the streets celebrating, it's not going on in this thread.
I think it's a lot of people who have no idea what they are talking about especially when they broadly state that each race should ~50% win rate. If you brought Flash, BaBy, Midas, Mind, etc. over to SC2 would the same argument still apply? They have to nerf the race because the players who play them are too good? What sort of argument is that? Handicap players because they are too good? If the players ceteris paribus have the same skill then yes, we should see ~50%, but how many people have actually bothered to go through all the games and rate each players skill relative to others? I usually do not miss many Korean games, and I can clearly see a massive skill difference between a lot of the top Terrans, and the top players of other races though Zerg is not too far behind in player skill. Protoss players just have far less skill than their counter-parts, and in the last few months they have finally started to catch up, thus you see more wins.
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On November 10 2011 02:29 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:18 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 02:17 Ziktomini wrote:
Protoss players will never be happy until they have a 100% win rate.
Sounds like zerg players. Terran players seem to be on the rise as well now that they might drop under 55% win.
Better buff the marine, then.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On November 10 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready. For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving. Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc.
People thought stalkers did too much DPS?
Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas.
Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
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On November 10 2011 02:25 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:03 TheLaw wrote:
I honestly think this whole sad zealot thing is extremely whiny and childish. Every race has it's slumps sometimes... deal with it instead of crying. Hmm? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283186Wheres the Terran slump, exactly? Anyway, kinda cautiously optimistic all round, not just for Protoss but for Zerg as well. I reckon reducing EMP radius could turn out to make a significant difference in both TvP and TvZ.
Terrans been in a slump since January according to the graph 
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I love how Blizzard has to use Statistical Data and Analytical Thinking in order to improve the game while the geniuses among you can do it without bothering with any of that useless stuff. (yes sarcasm)
Case and Point: http://i.imgur.com/JW38u.png ZvP is still in favor of Z for the 7th month running and this needs to be addressed. PvT hopefully emp nerf will help P in that match up.
For the record: I play mid master Terran so i am not saying this because i want my own race buffed.
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On November 10 2011 02:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready. For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving. Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc. People thought stalkers did too much DPS? Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas. Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point
It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
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Ahhhh having to do the (other) strats that tyler was talking about months ago nooooo something new nooo.
The sad zealot was just sad he had downs, happy zealot is happy he picked protoss.
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On November 10 2011 02:28 QTIP. wrote:
Is this some sick joke? Everyone knows that all the Protoss players in the GSL are 10 times as good as their opponents. It's important to take into account the relative skill of the players before trying to discuss Balance. It's not PvT or PvZ -- it's fucking Sangho vs some Drone whore / EMP whore. We're talking about players that have been denied their right to win on a level playing field. Sangho and Huk being barely able to beat far inferior players says more about how their incredible skill than balance.
Drones aren't one the same level as EMP.
EMP is a flawless ability without drawback because you trade energy for energy or shield. That's free damage.
Drones are workers. Making them prevents you from building troops. It's a severe drawback.
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I dont think so. Most of the games with protoss have been won by the opponent playing terrible. Puzzle got through on two easy games and Huk beat clide because Clide was playing bad. Hero barely made it through. If crazy played like the 1st game I dont think hero wouldve made it through.
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On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
What an absurd hypocrite you are.
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If you look at how Protoss won games last spring, you would realise why people like Idra and Jinro are saying how Protoss haven't necessarily been playing their race to the potential Zerg and Terran have reached. I still haven't seen a game where the Protoss deserved to win but lost anyway (except vs 1/1/1). Unless there are literally ZERO good PvZ builds, I see Zerg players winning games due to metagame advantage, and that the cycle will come full circle, just like it always does (unless P truly is very weak). Still, a few balance patches didn't hurt.
Anything to discourage deathball play is nice. Mothership vs Z will be standard if they infestor broodlord turtle.
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Well, HuK has always proved his ability, but there are no gold mins for Terran in GSL, so it could very from league to league, tournament to tournament. But the patch should prove to with some better pushes and defenses for them though! PROTOS FIGHTING! zerg)
edit: added "always"
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On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Hahaha nothing better than Idra raging about protoss chobo player.
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On November 10 2011 02:29 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:18 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 02:17 Ziktomini wrote:
Protoss players will never be happy until they have a 100% win rate.
Sounds like zerg players. Terran players seem to be on the rise as well now that they might drop under 55% win.
They... obviously you are too fucking stupid to understand statistics, don't ever post anything about balance please.
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On November 10 2011 02:35 HuHEN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. What an absurd hypocrite you are.
this is all happening before patch 1.4.2 hit in Korea. this is why blizzard needs to leave the game ALONE. for a longer time. and dont go nerfing/buffing stuff so often. players need time to fix shit themselves. if they cant do it, then it might be imbalanced and needs a patch. NOT when platinum protosses cry on forums that terran is OP
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On November 10 2011 02:28 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. What happened is those strats got nerfed to the ground. Warpgate research, blink research, void ray, pylon radius... An example of the rationale used was "it's too hard for T to hold against blink rush. +20 seconds" Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. the way I see it was that the blink nerf was not only for pvt but also pvz. (didn't huk used blink rush against terran today in gsl?) i actually thought the 4 gate nerf and pylon radius was to make pvp better. (and honestly, 90% of my zvp were 4 gates...I could see blizzard nerfing it just to make sure toss has more dimensions in their games) the 1-1-1 did get nerfed through the barracks build time and immortal's range upgrade? Not sure about MM through, I do feel that early trade, gateway is weaker but I don't really see protoss losing to terran by MM alone. Most often PvT loss is the ghost emp changing the entire engagement outcome. and honestly, toss players had been improving a lot recently, even without needing to use those newly buff'd units like warp prism. I won't be surprised to see more toss players to get better results. Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Word. D:
is this real life???
If you watch Jinro's stream you will hear and see that he is atleast as opinionated as idra if not more (I would say more) about protoss.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On November 10 2011 02:34 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:32 Cyro wrote:On November 10 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote:On November 10 2011 01:46 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 01:38 ETisME wrote:On November 10 2011 01:26 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On November 10 2011 01:15 onPHYRE wrote:On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses. Haha, epic IdrA quote. I hope P does better but really I just want T nerfed so that for once they are at/around 50% w/l ratio since release, and not way above like they have been. But Terran have been winning imo for 2 reasons: 1) They have been innovating the most. 2) They have the most high level players to draw inspiration off. Protoss have been doing the exact same builds since beta, and every time zerg innovates they do really well. I really agree with this the most. It isn't like Protoss didn't have their good winning ratio against zerg when they started 4 gate, then FFE into 6 gate timing etc. I think they are just going through a rough time to find another good timing attacks that they could do. Many (including myself) feel that the same logic is not being applied across the board. MM early game dominance against gateway units is apparently just fine and dandy, as well as 1-1-1. But not blink rush, or early void rays, or 4gate, those things just had to go. That's the source of the so called whine. Most of the Protoss innovations got nerfed in what seems to be a harsh double standard. The 1/1/1's probably a better example than M&M. The 1/1/1 has existed since beta, but has never been the reason for a terran nerf. It only fell out of favor because of things like blink rushes, but with that option(as well as many others) gone, we had nothing to fall back on and had to suffer while Blizzard got a patch ready. For those arguing that zergs have been these brilliant strategists capable of making something from nothing, most of the actual innovators during the period of toss dominance in PvZ were called gimmicky scrubs and their styles were dismissed. It wasn't until Blizzard buffed the hell out of infestors that the average zerg stopped just going roach/hydra/corruptor and a-moving. Whenever a toss won a game, the LR threads were filled with posts calling for a lynching, IdrA told several players to kill themselves for playing toss, Dimaga wrote to Blizzard complaining that stalkers did too much DPS, etc. People thought stalkers did too much DPS? Stimmed marines with 3 attack do 15.6dps, stalkers with 3 attack do 9dps to light and 11.8 to armored without smart fire causing a lot of overkills, while stalkers cost 3.5x as much, 50 of those resources being gas. Ive heard a lot of complaints about blink stalkers when well micro'd, but i think anyone who complains about the DPS output of stalkers has no idea what they are talking about at this point It was in a blog post Sen did way back when. Dimaga apparently wrote an email to each member of the balance team addressing his issues with the game, one of them was stalker DPS. I could never take him seriously again after reading it.
He wrote an email to BOTH of them?
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On November 10 2011 01:11 IdrA wrote:
time for a bunch of goddam pussies who were angry they werent getting complete freewins anymore to pull their heads out of their asses.
Time for zerg to stop overdroning and losing for no good reason
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EPT
