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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 446

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
September 18 2011 18:56 GMT
#8901
@Zuxo

You say fungal should hit more than 1 templar at a time, but in order to do so, you need to get in range of feedback.

There is a logic gap there...

That's all I was pointing out.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
chrisgreg
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada61 Posts
September 18 2011 18:57 GMT
#8902
im glad blizzard listens to people, they are much better then most companies on balance and change, sometimes their wrong but they know where to find the answers. thanks for parasite fix
Supporting Team EG and Team IM
RobCorso
Profile Joined May 2011
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 19:06:00
September 18 2011 19:05 GMT
#8903
On September 19 2011 03:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
@Zuxo

You say fungal should hit more than 1 templar at a time, but in order to do so, you need to get in range of feedback.

There is a logic gap there...

That's all I was pointing out.

If you're retard protoss and clump them in a ball, it can hit 3-4 (hts cover the distance of about 1-2 range, and they can be on the outer rim of fungal's range. You will probably hit at least 2 with one fungal, if not, there will be units directly around the hts that you can fungal. Makes it more cost effective.
OT: happy about eh neural buff, not targeting massive units made no sense to me. Destiny should switch back to zerg now :D
We make expand, then defense it-WhiteRa
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
September 18 2011 19:20 GMT
#8904
Really glad that blizzard got rid of the no NP on massive units, but still that range nerf makes it sooo difficult to do anything. I mean a lot of the point was NPing colossi in a Protoss deathball from far enough away that the infestors were safe and required blink or other maneuvering to get taken out. With a range of 7, infestors have to get SO close to the deathball that I don't even think they could get a NP off without getting autotargeted by stalkers. Even with a roach/ling buffer in between. We'll just have to see how it plays out I guess.
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 19:24:37
September 18 2011 19:22 GMT
#8905
On September 19 2011 02:45 Zuxo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 02:23 Big J wrote:
On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:
On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:
On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:
On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote:
Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks.


Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that.

In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers.


That's why you FG.

It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers.



Wait....what?

How..?!...uggh..


Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a


except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.


So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks..


i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches.


Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great.

Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars.


Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.



if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you?


You are implying throughout your post that stalkers have no cooldown on blink, that they have 14 vision range and that I can snipe all your infestors with blinkstalkers before they die. I am having a hard time understanding if you are even trying to have a rational discussion.




I have a hard time understanding, that you really stand to that "FG rangeadvantage over Feedback"-stuff, and a hard time understanding, that you don't get that I don't think blink stalkers counter infestors, but templars do...
Maybe Im repeating myself but:
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)


and by the way: if you think range 11 (LOL) fungal counters templar, I guess range 11 (LOL) storm counters infestors...
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 19:24:29
September 18 2011 19:24 GMT
#8906
sry, double post
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 19:37:07
September 18 2011 19:34 GMT
#8907
On September 19 2011 04:22 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 02:45 Zuxo wrote:
On September 19 2011 02:23 Big J wrote:
On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:
On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:
On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:
On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:
On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote:
[quote]

Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that.

[quote]

That's why you FG.

It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers.



Wait....what?

How..?!...uggh..


Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a


except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.


So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks..


i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches.


Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great.

Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars.


Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.



if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you?


You are implying throughout your post that stalkers have no cooldown on blink, that they have 14 vision range and that I can snipe all your infestors with blinkstalkers before they die. I am having a hard time understanding if you are even trying to have a rational discussion.




I have a hard time understanding, that you really stand to that "FG rangeadvantage over Feedback"-stuff, and a hard time understanding, that you don't get that I don't think blink stalkers counter infestors, but templars do...
Maybe Im repeating myself but:
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
(just toying around with YOUR thinking...)


and by the way: if you think range 11 (LOL) fungal counters templar, I guess range 11 (LOL) storm counters infestors...


HTs can counter infestors if you can get in range, but they are slow as dirt. They go the exact same speed as a Thor. Thats right, the Thor, the unit that can't escape anything. It is one of the huge limiting factors of the unit. It is almost impossible to prevent fungals on your army with feedback alone, without exposing them any number of dangers. The range fungal has little to do with why HTs are not the perfect counter to infestors. They help, but you cannot rely on FB to deal with them.

And don't even go into offensively blinking. That is the least cost efficient way to deal with infestors.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
entrust
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland196 Posts
September 18 2011 21:37 GMT
#8908
Hey, they say new Neural change won't be reflected on PTR, so we might assume it will go live soon? This week maybe?
tarath
Profile Joined April 2009
United States377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 21:49:31
September 18 2011 21:48 GMT
#8909
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.

I don't really see why the templar needs to be so much slower than other casters.
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
September 18 2011 22:00 GMT
#8910
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical
Joseph123
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria1144 Posts
September 18 2011 22:06 GMT
#8911
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 18 2011 22:07 GMT
#8912
On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp


Not to mention that HT arguably has the weakest spells.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:09:24
September 18 2011 22:07 GMT
#8913
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical


Shouldn't be needed.
You should ferry your Hts in a Prism against Terran to protect them against EMP.
I, as a Protoss, would be disappointed if they would buff Templar movespeed.
There's no need for that imo. It adds a bit of additional difficulty in using a strong caster.
That's something that should be promoted, making strong units difficult to use / squishy.

For instance Ghosts are nearly unkillable through being psionic, have moderate movespeed, a cloaking ability, and 2 high range high damage abilities and an energy upgrade.
That's wrong design / unit balancing.

Strong units should have downsides as well.
Ghost and Infestors currently lack them. So you shouldn't really kill the deficit of a fine unit
to make them easy to use as well. Make the others harder to use.
wat
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
September 18 2011 22:11 GMT
#8914

Shouldn't be needed.
You should ferry your Hts in a Prism against Terran to protect them against EMP.


I'm zerg actually, and think buffing HT speed would be much more beneficial to the game than doing an uncalled nerf to NP7

Infestor are already squishy and shut down by feedback, NP is shut down by proper micro, fungal is nerfed in the next patch

Ghost are another story though
eourcs
Profile Joined February 2011
United States459 Posts
September 18 2011 22:11 GMT
#8915
On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp

My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage.

stop. comparing. casters. directly.
Masters Terran | Strelok after losing to Kas' BCs "FUUUUUCK" *Stream Offline* | "Fuck hellions. Fuck them in the ass" IdrA
pluvos
Profile Joined June 2010
39 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:19:40
September 18 2011 22:19 GMT
#8916
On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp

My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage.

stop. comparing. casters. directly.


they dont have to morph becuase they already tank a decent amount (no specific armor type) and can deal damage with both snipe and autoattack.

and not comparing units even if they are apple and oranges is retarded, you still have to balance them out even if they dont serve the exact same purpose.
RedFoxOne
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada39 Posts
September 18 2011 22:24 GMT
#8917
Can someone explain to me what "from 30% damage vs armored to 40 vs armored means"? Do armored units now take net damage of 40? Or was it a typo and armored units now take 40% damage?
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
September 18 2011 22:26 GMT
#8918
Can someone explain to me what "from 30% damage vs armored to 40 vs armored means"? Do armored units now take net damage of 40? Or was it a typo and armored units now take 40% damage?


This is no longer in %
Fungal deal 30 damage
Armored unit take 40 damage
Pred8oar
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany281 Posts
September 18 2011 22:29 GMT
#8919
On September 19 2011 07:19 pluvos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:
On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp

My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage.

stop. comparing. casters. directly.


they dont have to morph becuase they already tank a decent amount (no specific armor type) and can deal damage with both snipe and autoattack.

and not comparing units even if they are apple and oranges is retarded, you still have to balance them out even if they dont serve the exact same purpose.


But high templar can be deployed wherever you got a pylon and that in a matter of seconds because you first build a unit and then the wg cooldown kicks in and anyways, dont compare casters directly thats not hte way it works unlesss they all fullfill the same purpose, which they obviously dont
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 22:31:42
September 18 2011 22:30 GMT
#8920
On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:
On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:
It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp.


My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical

well what can be said..
both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't
both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht
both infestor and ghost are faster than ht
both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht
and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp

My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage.

stop. comparing. casters. directly.


Yeah, they just happen to completely counter those super power balls of energy. Ghosts are far better than HT, don't kid yourself. Look at how many protoss outright die to early game ghost pushes like MMA v MC even though MC spread every single unit.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
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