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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a
except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.
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except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.
If high templar countered the infestor they already made up for their cost + Archon arent Deadweight
On the other hand, feedback'd infestor arent deadweight, they are dead anyway
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On September 19 2011 00:01 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. If high templar countered the infestor they already made up for their cost + Archon arent Deadweight On the other hand, feedback'd infestor arent deadweight, they are dead anyway
they don't counter infestors because massing infestors is viable whereas massing templar is not.
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On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.
So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks..
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On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks..
i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches.
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On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.
why does P arguments always remind me of Z arguments about colossi?
just to remember: "corruptor are bad vs colossi because P will already have won the war, once colossi are dead"
Also:
Templar are great vs Zerglings, banelings, hydralisks, mutalisk, drones, infestors
they are decent vs broodlords, speedroaches
they are bad vs roaches with burrow and movement, Ultralisks, corruptors, Overlords (drops!)
but I guess as long as colossi are SOOO GOOD, there is really no reason to play anything else (or even think about playing another style), if it isn't for airreasons...
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On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches.
Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great.
Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars.
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On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars.
Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.
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LOL i have to stop reading this thread. Its actually sickening to read what some people in here say.
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On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.
And it takes 3 fungals to kill a HT.
If all the fungals are blown killing the HTs, they STILL did their job.
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EXCITING INFESTOR UPDATE: Show nested quote +We thank those of you who participated in the 1.4 PTR and appreciate your feedback regarding changes to the Infestor unit. In response to that feedback, we have chosen a different course of action regarding adjustment of Neural Parasite. Rather than preventing this ability from targeting Massive Units, the range of Neural Parasite will instead be reduced from 9 to 7. We believe that this change will make choices regarding positioning and unit composition more important when using the Infestor.
This change will not be reflected on the PTR, but we wanted to ensure that you were aware of the new changes before the StarCraft II Patch 1.4 is live.
YES!!!! THANK YOU BLIZZARD! YES! YES! YES!
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On September 19 2011 02:03 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake. And it takes 3 fungals to kill a HT. If all the fungals are blown killing the HTs, they STILL did their job.
Well yeah ofc if the Zerg player wastes 3 fungal on every individual templar it is kind of obvious that sacking the templars was a good thing. I don't get what you are trying to say. It is like me saying "Zerglings still did their job against the templars if the Protoss player stormed every individual ling". I said that Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg made a misstake and fungaling every individual templar three times is to me a misstake.
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On September 19 2011 00:33 Big J wrote:
Templar are great vs Zerglings, banelings, hydralisks, mutalisk, drones, infestors
they are decent vs broodlords, speedroaches
they are bad vs roaches with burrow and movement, Ultralisks, corruptors, Overlords (drops!)
Would quite like to take you up on this. I'll give you Zerglings (most of the time), hydralisks and Mutalisks.
Drones don't count unless you want to say that almost everything in the game is good against workers. Workers shouldn't be under a counter thing unless the unit in question is AMAZING against them, like pre-patch BFHellions.
OK: Infestors outrange HTs by 2 (Fungal has a large radius), and HTs have to be kept in the back or else they get sniped easily anyway, and directly trading HTs for Infestors when Infestors are easily massable while HTs are NOT, is not a cost-efficient, reliable way of doing it. HTs vs Infestors is suffering from the same problem as HTs vs Ghosts: HTs have a great spell for killing/removing their abilities, but the HTs are neither maneouvrable nor with long enough range to do it effectively. If you put them in a Warp Prism, which some people have been forced to try, it can easily get chain-fungaled and/or sniped like the paper aeroplane it is.
HTs are very cost inefficient vs Broodlords unless you clump them up, in which case that's not a fair test. Speedroaches - you are joking, right? Test HTs vs speed roaches on pretty much any scale/unit tester: HTs are vastly cost inefficient vs Speedroaches too. Sure, they can kill them with enough Storms but because Storms don't stack that takes a long time and Speedroaches are so durable that your army should be dead by that point.
Now, you say that HTs are good against banelings but they are bad vs Overlord drops. You see the logical flaw here? Banelings are either used for some crazy Baneling bust WAAAAY before HTs are out, or used in... guess what? Overlords drops! Same with Zerglings sometimes, but they can be used with the main army as well so I'll give you that one.
Now that I've explained why the HT is not nearly as good against Zerg as it seems, lets compare the Zerg spellcaster (I know that comparing units from different races in a vacuum is normally a bad idea, but here it seems necessary as one is directly supposed to counter the other).
Infestors are great vs Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, DTs (Fungal reveals them), Phoenix, Void Rays (fungal holds them in place for any anti air to take them out, including Infested Terrans), Carriers (redundant as Carriers are shit anyway, but NP slaughters Carriers), Mothership (again, Mothership is rare in pro games), Warp Prism (holds them in place/kills them with ITs). Oh, and Probes, if you want to count them. Oh, and Observers (Fungal reveals them).
They are decent vs Immortals, Colossi (after NP nerf, not quite as good but Fungal still works wonders on the immobile Protoss army). And that's all of them army except one unit:
They are about equal with HTs, if Zerg player makes a mistake the HTs can quickly focus down the Infestors but that is dubious. As I said, Infestors outrange HTs and are faster most of the time, etc, etc.
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On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.
if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...)
So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you?
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omg the non-sense in this thread is making my head explode.
When someone has it stuck in their head that a unit is overpowered or it was unjustifyably nerfed, I really doubt some other dude on the internetz can come and convince him with some retarded post giving out random comparisons and metrics...
We shall wait and see what the new patch brings.
can we hope for a lock on this?
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On September 19 2011 02:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake. if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...) So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you?
because standard ground armies have 14 Vision range right?
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On September 19 2011 02:26 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:23 Big J wrote:On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake. if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...) So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you? because standard ground armies have 14 Vision range right?
lol... that's just sooo dumb... If you are not scouting the front where you go, you simply deserve to lose everytime you push...
Ever seen observers flying in front of P armies?
Single marines stimming forward?
Scans?
Watchtowers?
"Hey, Siege Tanks are so OP. How can I know where he sieges, if my units only have 10sight and his have 11... YOU CAN'T AVOID THOSE SIEGELINES! GOT TO RUN INTO THEM!"
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On September 19 2011 02:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake. if you want to refer to fungal having a radius that can hit targets outside it's 9range (compare to feedback 9), then I just want to add, that blink has a range of 8 and stalkers a range of 6. so even with your 11range fungal, no stalker should ever get fungaled, unless it was already sniping infestors I guess... (just toying around with YOUR thinking...) So I guess you are already able to hardcounter infestors with blinkstalkers, aren't you?
You are implying throughout your post that stalkers have no cooldown on blink, that they have 14 vision range and that I can snipe all your infestors with blinkstalkers before they die. I am having a hard time understanding if you are even trying to have a rational discussion.
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On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor.
ROFL
you actually think HT are useless vs anything except Ling/Infestor?
hahaha, oh wow. People and their "strategies" on this forum absolutely crack me up. I feel like 90% of these people on here are in gold league or something.
On September 19 2011 01:38 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 00:36 mec wrote:On September 19 2011 00:32 Shiori wrote:On September 19 2011 00:29 mec wrote:On September 18 2011 23:53 Shiori wrote:On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a except high templars are dead weight if you get them to counter infestors. his infestors are still useful with temps on the field. your high templars are worthless if he has anything other than ling/infestor. So high templars does not counter, hydras, roaches (decent atleast), mutas, banelings as well? Not to mention the archon that you can create once the energy is out? The only thing that zergs can make that makes High tempars quite bad are ultralisks.. i dare you to do a high templar-centric composition against roaches. Define templar-centric, only templars would be bad but having 4-5 NEVER hurts as a protoss. And thats all you need to counter infestors.. And not to mention that's why I said they were decent against roaches and not great. Edit: When I think about it zergs don't even have a direct counter to high templars. Templars don't counter infestors since fungal out-range feedback with 2. Templars are good against infestors if the Zerg player makes a misstake.
Very poor argument, no Zerg is going to ever completely avoid getting hit by Feedback. I've never fought HT with Infestors and been able to avoid getting Infestors killed. Guess what? GM Pro players still get their Infestors killed by HT as well.
People who actually cry about Fungal theoretically having more range than Feedback have literally no game experience and are just talking out of their asses.
It's sad but I used to think this forum was actually more sensible than the Battle.net forums, turns out I was wrong, this place is just as bad.
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EPT
