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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 06:00 clownzim wrote:
they really question about NP is : IS it really gonna make any difference?
if u guys watch destiny stream u guys will notice that even with hes mass infestor plan he almost never uses NP, he research it but really rarely he uses it. FG + IT is much more useful than NP.
for real i never saw a NP WINS a fight, sure it helps u NP and target the funged stalkers with it. or some thors so take tanks/funged bio/air.
u guys still can NP tank/immortals still, remember?
Yeah, it is a big deal. Means Zerg NEEDS Corruptors to fight Colossus, which is stupid because Corruptors are just a boring bad unit.
Also means that if Toss tech switches to not Colossus, every Zerg is guaranteed to either have useless supply in Corruptors or to be getting Broodlords.
It takes away Zergs already limited options, means Toss can just blindly make Colossus->HT/Voidray and be even more cost efficient than they normally would.
Basically Zerg needs to be super aggressive all game long and prevent a Toss player from ever getting tech units to win. Stupid not fun design. Even if it ends up being balanced, it is no longer a matchup with depth and it certainly won't be fun for Zerg to play.
I bet most Zergs will end up going super aggressive Ling/Muta or Roach/Bling.
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On September 10 2011 06:05 hitpoint wrote:
It's pretty disgusting that people are so happy about a nerf to another race no matter what it is. NP is terrible now. That's amazing for protoss and terran. They can make their big units with no worry about infestors. But doesn't that make the game a whole lot less interesting?
As a zerg player I thought reapers needed a nerf when the game came out, but what Blizzard did was too much. Blizzard over nerfed the reaper, I said so then and I'm still saying so now. They are a fucking cool unit and I wish they were viable, same with the carrier. Now they're over nerfing NP also. There are slowly becoming fewer viable units available to players and I think it's bad for the game.
If infestors need a nerf there are other ways to go about it. NP could cost more energy, more money to upgrade, more time to upgrade. It could have a shorter duration, or a shorter duration to massive. Hell, I'd rather them nerf fungal even more.
Infestors with NP are how I dealt with terran mech. Broodlords and ultras still won't be out in time to stop it. That leaves us with two choices that I can see - mass roach - and mass muta to the point where they can kill the thors. Both of those are TERRIBLE options.
Awww hell yeah. This fellow speaks the truth, removing options is not a good idea, add some in response to problems instead.
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On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun. See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover. Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable. /shrugface? Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.
So? Get Templars
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Destiny is a mediocre zerg who plays against other mediocre players on the NA ladder. Nothing should be read into regarding the zerg race when it comes to the games you see on his stream.
That's a little harsh and inaccurate don't you think? Destiny plays all sort of show matches against semi pros and pros alike. He also does compete in tournaments, and well he has not won any major tournament, it is not "average joes" that are eliminating him.
Seems like you just wanted to attack destiny with your post.
He also plays on the koren server not just N/A.
Even if he was just a mediocre zerg the majority of us are not at the level of professional players, so his game play is feasible and executable by the average gamer. So saying "nothing should be read into his games" makes no sense. Just because its not a pro streaming doesn't mean you won't learn anything from him or other streamers.
That is the greatness of teamliquid. Uniting gamer of all skill levels together.
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The neural change seems silly. All I hope they increase the templar's speed to 2.25 and revert the ghost cost.
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On September 10 2011 06:12 DemiAlbedo wrote:Show nested quote +Destiny is a mediocre zerg who plays against other mediocre players on the NA ladder. Nothing should be read into regarding the zerg race when it comes to the games you see on his stream. That's a little harsh and inaccurate don't you think? Destiny plays all sort of show matches against semi pros and pros alike. He also does compete in tournaments, and well he has not won any major tournament, it is not "average joes" that are eliminating him. Seems like you just wanted to attack destiny with your post. He also plays on the koren server not just N/A. Even if he was just a mediocre zerg the majority of us are not at the level of professional players, so his game play is feasible and executable by the average gamer. So saying "nothing should be read into his games" makes no sense. Just because its not a pro streaming doesn't mean you won't learn anything from him or other streamers. That is the greatness of teamliquid. Uniting gamer of all skill levels together.
My point is that just because Destiny uses nothing but infestors and, yea, he wins games, that doesn't mean that going mass infestor works on a pro level to the point of imbalanced. In fact you hardly ever see large infestor use AS IS on a pro level <--- That's where the games that matter happen.
The proposed change is severely harsh considering how much diversity we've already seen come out of toss / terran when it comes to dealing with them.
Horrible change for the game and hope to the starcraft gods that it doesn't make it through.
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On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:
Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.
Isn't this what scouting is for? If you see the Zerg is going infestor ling, just go Templar tech, simple. Is there any reason why Protoss should be able to go Gateway + Colossus no matter what the opposition is doing?
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Actually, if they remove corruptor and give us scourge, feel free to nerf NP. Or make corruptor a better unit....or better yet, add hydras that don't suck.
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On September 10 2011 05:53 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 05:38 Belial88 wrote:On September 10 2011 05:23 atavus wrote:On September 10 2011 05:18 RyanRushia wrote:
as a protoss player, i must say that this newest change regarding neural parasite will be extremely difficult for zerg players, i feel like it's one that certainly wont make it into the real game, and if it does won't be retained long. without neural parasite, it cuts down on a huge anti-colossus unit, would be real tough to deal with colossus pushes Counter to colossi is Corrupters. Don't talk about choice Infester have become an all-in tool in every match up, this is definitively not normal. Show me a game where Zerg won against VR/Colossi or Stalker/colossi using Corruptors, and when the Zerg didn't take a fast third or Protoss didn't fall behind with their opening (like MC's stargate doing nothing to deny the third on XelNagaFortress). Infestors are an every-tool just like stalkers and marines. If you think infestors are too versatile, then nerf marines and stalkers. Stupid, right? And then there's ghosts and HT, which immediately kill infestors, where ghosts and HT can still attack/Archon. And dont tell me FG counters HT, because unless you ball them up + leave them out of position, they always kill. And FG/NP have to chained/channeled to work, so losing 10 infestors to 2 HT just to get one FG off on an army is riduclous. Not to mention HT are cheaper, come out faster, are faster to tech to, then infestors. Whoever said Protoss should play more reactionary than massing up some rigid build order for a timing attac, sounds great. By the way in order for voidray to effectively kill corrupter before they kill the colossi, the toss must focus fire all the corrupter with the voidray. To sums up: you can already root all toss unit with fungal denying any micro, meaning you can focus fire the colossi without letting the voidray reogarnize themselve to crush the corrupter.& if the voidray do clan up during the focus fire they will be taken down by consecutive fungal. WoW that hard. HT cheaper than infestor well by 50 mineral how a tremendous amout of ressources, when zerg have the better economy of the game thw to overdronage. Come faster let's compare how fast u can have a lair + infestor pit & concil + templar archive. Strangely i feel like this swill be almost the same.
Twilight+Templar = 100 seconds
Lair + Infestation pit + (Pathogen Glands - Infestor Build Time) + Infestor Build Time = 211 seconds.
Infestors take twice as long....
But Zerg always gets lair, so it's probably more fair to say 211 - 80 = 131 seconds. That's about a third longer than HT.
And Corruptor will not kill Colossi before Void rays kill the Corruptors...
And FG has much less range than Colossi. Every time you FG you lose at least 1 infestors. Try losing a 2 HT every time you storm.
And then, VR/Colossi/HT or Stalker/Colosi/HT just chews through infestors.
There is no reason for these nerfs. We see in tournament play that both Protoss and Terran never lose to infestors - they lose because the Zerg gets a huge macro advantage. There is not a single GSL game where infestors were why Protoss lost.
As for mass thor, I don't think NP is really a good answer to mass thor, so mech isn't going to change because of this. You could always beat mass thor with roach/muta, or ling/muta if there's no hellions or tanks. BL was always better than massing infestors.
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On September 10 2011 06:09 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:00 clownzim wrote:
they really question about NP is : IS it really gonna make any difference?
if u guys watch destiny stream u guys will notice that even with hes mass infestor plan he almost never uses NP, he research it but really rarely he uses it. FG + IT is much more useful than NP.
for real i never saw a NP WINS a fight, sure it helps u NP and target the funged stalkers with it. or some thors so take tanks/funged bio/air.
u guys still can NP tank/immortals still, remember?
Yeah, it is a big deal. Means Zerg NEEDS Corruptors to fight Colossus, which is stupid because Corruptors are just a boring bad unit. Also means that if Toss tech switches to not Colossus, every Zerg is guaranteed to either have useless supply in Corruptors or to be getting Broodlords. It takes away Zergs already limited options, means Toss can just blindly make Colossus->HT/Voidray and be even more cost efficient than they normally would. Basically Zerg needs to be super aggressive all game long and prevent a Toss player from ever getting tech units to win. Stupid not fun design. Even if it ends up being balanced, it is no longer a matchup with depth and it certainly won't be fun for Zerg to play. I bet most Zergs will end up going super aggressive Ling/Muta or Roach/Bling.
The fact is as toss if i'm not cost efficient all the time (at least at the beginning) I'm dead because my units cost an arm.
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Mostly good changes from what I can see. Probably one of the better looking proposed patches.
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Sweet, hellion/thor everygame ftw!
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I want reaver instead of collossi. Then toss' can make carriers without the counter already being out from collossi. It never made sense that both T3 units are countered by the same unit.
Reavers + beefier warp prism would be so much better than collossi.
I really don't see the NP nerf going through either... its just too silly.
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Lol.
Infestors take twice as long as templars, by taking the time to research Pathogen Glands into account.
Zerg QQ to a whole new level.
Why don't we just go play on the PTR instead of theorycrafting with our very limited game knowledge (and probably realize how ignorant we are now later on.)
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I don't think it'll make it through PTR..... (Neural parasite change)
But the real problem I have with the change is massive units are the main reason to research Neural parasite.
An infestor is 150/150 and 3 food. It's not really sensible to exchange a 150/150 unit for a 150/125 (siege tank) unit... Is it? For some reason a zerg unit is more expensive and less useful than a terran unit? (if it were MORE useful then why would you be stealing a terran unit?)
So.. If no massive units can be NP'd that limits the units you WOULD NP to spellcasters, immortals, and siege tanks... It's doubtful you'd waste energy parasiting combat air units.
If those are the limitations on the spell, it's not even worth researching.
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On September 10 2011 06:17 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:09 iCanada wrote:On September 10 2011 06:00 clownzim wrote:
they really question about NP is : IS it really gonna make any difference?
if u guys watch destiny stream u guys will notice that even with hes mass infestor plan he almost never uses NP, he research it but really rarely he uses it. FG + IT is much more useful than NP.
for real i never saw a NP WINS a fight, sure it helps u NP and target the funged stalkers with it. or some thors so take tanks/funged bio/air.
u guys still can NP tank/immortals still, remember?
Yeah, it is a big deal. Means Zerg NEEDS Corruptors to fight Colossus, which is stupid because Corruptors are just a boring bad unit. Also means that if Toss tech switches to not Colossus, every Zerg is guaranteed to either have useless supply in Corruptors or to be getting Broodlords. It takes away Zergs already limited options, means Toss can just blindly make Colossus->HT/Voidray and be even more cost efficient than they normally would. Basically Zerg needs to be super aggressive all game long and prevent a Toss player from ever getting tech units to win. Stupid not fun design. Even if it ends up being balanced, it is no longer a matchup with depth and it certainly won't be fun for Zerg to play. I bet most Zergs will end up going super aggressive Ling/Muta or Roach/Bling. The fact is as toss if i'm not cost efficient all the time (at least at the beginning) I'm dead because my units cost an arm.
Call me stupid, but in p v t, isn't Terran always more cost effective with their bio ball and ghost? I am sure you can win a pvt if both side decides to macro(1-1-1 is outside of the question, since I don't want to get that involved)
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On September 10 2011 06:20 Tezzick wrote:
I want reaver instead of collossi. Then toss' can make carriers without the counter already being out from collossi. It never made sense that both T3 units are countered by the same unit.
Reavers + beefier warp prism would be so much better than collossi.
I really don't see the NP nerf going through either... its just too silly.
The reason is quite silly : that's not SC1 HD, as simple as that.
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On September 10 2011 06:03 Lomak wrote:
I just don't understand how all the drastic changes are happening to the mediocre races. Yet terrans get 5 seconds here or 5 seconds there, all these small adjustments when they are arguably the best performing race in sc2 by FAR. Just pisses me off.
Dude have you ever seen the terran history of nerfs. Being ignorant to your own race and saying terrans are the least nerfed race is just plain stupid. About every unit in the terran army has been nerfed since launch. If you don't believe me read the patch notes.
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On September 10 2011 06:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun. See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover. Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable. /shrugface? Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg. So? Get Templars
templar to storm or fb? You can't have both cuz FG out range HTs, so you either sacrificed ht to fb, or storm on lings and get FG to death anyway. You wanna split up the army? well lings will surround and bite your ass anyway.
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I dont really have too much of an issue with the NP change except against archons...
ling/bling/ultra destroys colossus play, even moreso if you have a couple infestors that are able to fungal to prevent any kiting.
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EPT
