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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Bashion
Cook Islands2612 Posts
Like Tyler said on SOTG, you can even poke with phoenix once infestors are out. One fungal and you lose them all. Plus, infested terrans being able to snipe a nexus before you can do anything is pretty silly and imbalanced, imho. NP wasnt the main problem, most protoss recognize that. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
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JackDragon
525 Posts
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:15 Lomak wrote: My point is that just because Destiny uses nothing but infestors and, yea, he wins games, that doesn't mean that going mass infestor works on a pro level to the point of imbalanced. In fact you hardly ever see large infestor use AS IS on a pro level <--- That's where the games that matter happen. The proposed change is severely harsh considering how much diversity we've already seen come out of toss / terran when it comes to dealing with them. Horrible change for the game and hope to the starcraft gods that it doesn't make it through. Destiny has beaten a lot of good players who would crush him if he played a game without using infestors because their mechanics and sense of timings are a thousand times better, but he is able to overcome ridiculous deficits using infestors all the time like in one of his games versus Bomber where Bomber's early pressure tore him completely apart. And if you never see heavy infestor use on the pro level (some do, there are a lot of two base infestor + infested terran timing attacks korean zerg are using in ZvP nowadays), that means that zerg can still easily win games without resorting to things like neural parasite, so what's the point of all the complaining and pretending the game will be broken if NP becomes less effective? | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:24 Raid wrote: Dude have you ever seen the terran history of nerfs. Being ignorant to your own race and saying terrans are the least nerfed race is just plain stupid. About every unit in the terran army has been nerfed since launch. If you don't believe me read the patch notes. Yea it HAS been nerfed since launch and for good reason , but they are never overly severe nerfs. Remember when infested terran was TAKEN OUT of the game and they gave infestors frenzy???? Those are the kind of changes they do to zerg. *5 seconds added to bunker build time* are the kind of changes they give to terran, and yea it's bullshit. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:27 rpgalon wrote: where is the ghost nerf? I am waiting for it too... | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:47 freewareplayer wrote: Im not having trouble, cause i got neural parasite to deal with timing pushes, works just fine. And it is stupid, but it doesnt work. How did those Roach hydra Corruptor Metagame times work out for Zvp? Exactly it didnt work out exactly good, with 80 % of the Zergs QQing, including people like Idra. The only one i recently saw making roach corrupter work was Mondragon who streamed 2 days ago, then again it mostly worked cause of nonstop drops everywhere, together with pushes at different locations, with sick macro behind it. "Including Idra".. Well that gave me a good laugh. I think the Idra's Law may in fact become a law in SC2: Any SC2 threads eventually turns into balance discussion -> Then eventually they become about Idra. Someone please make a list in the liquipedia. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:30 usethis2 wrote: "Including Idra".. Well that gave me a good laugh. I think the Idra's Law may in fact become a law in SC2: Any SC2 threads eventually turns into balance discussion -> Then eventually they become about Idra. Someone please make a list in the liquipedia. Would you rather him include someone like Haypro? Maybe Vibe? or Catz? Despite how much people love to hate Idra, i have yet to hear him complain about something without at least giving a logical explanation as to why he believes something. Whether you agree with him or not. | ||
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atavus
France60 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:21 TolEranceNA wrote: Call me stupid, but in p v t, isn't Terran always more cost effective with their bio ball and ghost? I am sure you can win a pvt if both side decides to macro(1-1-1 is outside of the question, since I don't want to get that involved) Open the unit lost tab for a PvZ & a PvT : PvZ : zerg will loose ton shit of unit for low price while toss will losse low number of higly price unit. PvT : the damage tab are approxematly the same, in this match up the condition feel like more loosing a part of your army composition against terran (meaning the heavy gas unit) while zealot are totally expendable in exchange of reasonable amount of damage. Add the fact that terran can't counter attack, retreat (drop taking a expansion is fairly rare), not get counter attack a toss as easily as the zerg. Zerg are less sensible to that, that basically why toss must do a Force push or very little army (20 pop) in order to win against zerg. | ||
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mFour
United States25 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:15 TolEranceNA wrote: Actually, if they remove corruptor and give us scourge, feel free to nerf NP. Or make corruptor a better unit....or better yet, add hydras that don't suck. Is a Corrupter really that bad of a unit vs Colossi in comparison to the Viking? (I'm being serious btw I wouldn't know in real-game situations). I've tested it a bit (with no micro and no opponent, just a unit tester for numbers) and the Viking gets the 3 range advantage which is its best feat for vsing Colossi right? With 6 unupgraded Vikings it takes 3 volleys to kill a 1 armor Colossi. With 6 unupgraded Corrupters it takes 3 shots to kill a 1 armor Colossi (with Corruption). Obviously you aren't going to be fighting Colossi with no support right? With stalkers under the Colossi the Vikings get an obvious advantage for the range alone, but Corrupters have 75 more HP than a Viking and start with 2 armor unupgraded. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 6 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Vikings. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 10 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Corrupters. When those Stalkers happen to have Blink the 75 HP and +2 armor is better than having +3 range, no? I'm not saying Corrupters are better than Vikings, but I want to know what makes them so "useless" in real-game situations. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
1. Corrupters cost more 2. Do less damage (even with their ability used, requiring more APM) 3. Less range 4. When there is nothing to attack in the air, they become nothing but a food block. They are worse on every point. | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
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Aldermeer
United States4 Posts
Or maybe this is their way of getting people to use their PTR festor energy on fungals instead of NP's? I don't bother with beta enough to know whether they regularly do that kind of bullshittery. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:33 mFour wrote: Is a Corrupter really that bad of a unit vs Colossi in comparison to the Viking? (I'm being serious btw I wouldn't know in real-game situations). I've tested it a bit (with no micro and no opponent, just a unit tester for numbers) and the Viking gets the 3 range advantage which is its best feat for vsing Colossi right? With 6 unupgraded Vikings it takes 3 volleys to kill a 1 armor Colossi. With 6 unupgraded Corrupters it takes 3 shots to kill a 1 armor Colossi (with Corruption). Obviously you aren't going to be fighting Colossi with no support right? With stalkers under the Colossi the Vikings get an obvious advantage for the range alone, but Corrupters have 75 more HP than a Viking and start with 2 armor unupgraded. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 6 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Vikings. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 10 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Corrupters. When those Stalkers happen to have Blink the 75 HP and +2 armor is better than having +3 range, no? I'm not saying Corrupters are better than Vikings, but I want to know what makes them so "useless" in real-game situations. Blinking in to kill vikings is EXTREMELY situational, considering you may be blinking into his entire army. So, yea... while vikings arent as durable as a corruptor, vikings let you kill the colossus before you engage with minimal losses... meanwhile corruptors need to engage with the army. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:34 Lomak wrote: Comparing corrupter to viking. 1. Corrupters cost more 2. Do less damage (even with their ability used, requiring more APM) 3. Less range 4. When there is nothing to attack in the air, they become nothing but a food block. They are worse on every point. I am 100% sure somebody will quote this post and say "different units and races are different", and/or "you can't compare them". But you're right, this is strange. | ||
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atavus
France60 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:34 Lomak wrote: Comparing corrupter to viking. 1. Corrupters cost more 2. Do less damage (even with their ability used, requiring more APM) 3. Less range 4. When there is nothing to attack in the air, they become nothing but a food block. They are worse on every point. Valids points. But you forget something once they clear any air menace they can be morph in the ultimate siege unit of the game & that's some huge advantage. Becoming very usefull food population. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 10 2011 06:33 mFour wrote: Is a Corrupter really that bad of a unit vs Colossi in comparison to the Viking? (I'm being serious btw I wouldn't know in real-game situations). I've tested it a bit (with no micro and no opponent, just a unit tester for numbers) and the Viking gets the 3 range advantage which is its best feat for vsing Colossi right? With 6 unupgraded Vikings it takes 3 volleys to kill a 1 armor Colossi. With 6 unupgraded Corrupters it takes 3 shots to kill a 1 armor Colossi (with Corruption). Obviously you aren't going to be fighting Colossi with no support right? With stalkers under the Colossi the Vikings get an obvious advantage for the range alone, but Corrupters have 75 more HP than a Viking and start with 2 armor unupgraded. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 6 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Vikings. It takes 10 +2 attack Stalkers 10 shots (A-Move) to kill 6 unupgraded Corrupters. When those Stalkers happen to have Blink the 75 HP and +2 armor is better than having +3 range, no? I'm not saying Corrupters are better than Vikings, but I want to know what makes them so "useless" in real-game situations. I'll try to answer this I guess. The terran ground army is much more efficient against the toss ground army. When vikings kill the colossi, stim mmm can usually kill whatever toss has left on the ground. When corrupters kill the colossi, zerg usually gets rolled by whatever is left on the ground. Also lets not forget that vikings can still land and do similar dps as hydras, wheras corrupters fly around and do nothing but take up supply. In the past few months the game has shifted away from making corrupters for these reasons. They're expensive, have relatively short range (compared to vikings), and because they are useless after the colossus are dead, they occupy more supply than the zerg can spare. | ||
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
On September 09 2011 23:48 Boardin wrote: Try to win one fight against a masters zerg without FF micro and colo micro. Keeping zeals in front, microing HT's. Making important decisions on moving out on the map vz Z mobility, how many stalkers to send to stop mutas. You wont ofc I wont, I am a master Zerg, and of course my offrace cant beat players at my level. | ||
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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