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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 348

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
SonicTitan
Profile Joined August 2010
United States249 Posts
September 09 2011 20:58 GMT
#6941
Considering I'm a low-level scrub, I'm going to check my first "wtf" response to the NP change. The reasons against the change have already been articulated enough, as well as reasons for it. I'll only ask - has Blizzard themselves released any justification for the change? NP WAS a viable strategy against both Thor and Collosus, and especially with Collosus, no other unit composition could really match the power of NP. The change is worrisome, is all, and as far as I can see it was never asked for or talked about.

So once again, has Blizzard said anything about it?
What if I'm in it for fighting?
ma70
Profile Joined October 2010
253 Posts
September 09 2011 21:00 GMT
#6942
On September 10 2011 05:58 SonicTitan wrote:
Considering I'm a low-level scrub, I'm going to check my first "wtf" response to the NP change. The reasons against the change have already been articulated enough, as well as reasons for it. I'll only ask - has Blizzard themselves released any justification for the change? NP WAS a viable strategy against both Thor and Collosus, and especially with Collosus, no other unit composition could really match the power of NP. The change is worrisome, is all, and as far as I can see it was never asked for or talked about.

So once again, has Blizzard said anything about it?


Maybe they did the NP change because if NP units get the upgrades (which did not occur last patch) then they will be THAT much stronger against your own army. I mean, it's not perfect, but at least the units you "steal" from them (should you use NP) will be stronger....but anyways, you can always just not research it and use Fungal (which is powerful in its own right) and Infested Terrans.
HowardRoark
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
1146 Posts
September 09 2011 21:00 GMT
#6943
I have the best idea! If Blizzard nerfs NP like this, they should really restore the old unlimited NP timer like it was last spring.

That would be cool IMO and enhance the spectator experience: Imagine Nestea kidnapping probes to make Zerg Photons, or SCVs etc. Or steal a Sentry to keep the entrence guarded by Forcefields. It will give a reason for the Infestor to be called Infestor.
"It is really good to get the double observatory if you want to get the speed and sight range for the observer simultaneously. It's a little bit of an advanced tactic, and by advanced, I mean really fucking bad."
clownzim
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil267 Posts
September 09 2011 21:00 GMT
#6944
they really question about NP is : IS it really gonna make any difference?
if u guys watch destiny stream u guys will notice that even with hes mass infestor plan he almost never uses NP, he research it but really rarely he uses it. FG + IT is much more useful than NP.

for real i never saw a NP WINS a fight, sure it helps u NP and target the funged stalkers with it. or some thors so take tanks/funged bio/air.

u guys still can NP tank/immortals still, remember?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
tntrieu
Profile Joined December 2010
United States19 Posts
September 09 2011 21:01 GMT
#6945
On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun.


See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover.

Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable.

/shrugface?


Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.
SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
September 09 2011 21:01 GMT
#6946
On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun.


See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover.

Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable.

/shrugface?



i dont understand your reasoning here..first you say NP sucks so bad that no one used it effectively outside of bronze then your next line says pvz will be unwinnable for zerg....

are you trolling me
TotalNightmare
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Germany139 Posts
September 09 2011 21:02 GMT
#6947
On September 10 2011 05:38 Belial88 wrote:

Infestors are an every-tool just like stalkers and marines. If you think infestors are too versatile, then nerf marines and stalkers. Stupid, right?

And then there's ghosts and HT, which immediately kill infestors, where ghosts and HT can still attack/Archon. And dont tell me FG counters HT, because unless you ball them up + leave them out of position, they always kill. And FG/NP have to chained/channeled to work, so losing 10 infestors to 2 HT just to get one FG off on an army is riduclous.

Not to mention HT are cheaper, come out faster, are faster to tech to, then infestors. Whoever said Protoss should play more reactionary than massing up some rigid build order for a timing attac, sounds great.

You are pretty mutch wrong. Infestors are no "every-tool", or at least not supposed to be one. They are a spellcaster that is supposed to do huge amounts of damage and then hang around. So why do you complain when they are not good against EVERYTHING anymore BESIDES because you are biased?

Also the thing with the HTs. They are supposed to counter infestors, yes. But they aren't really good at it. If you want to counter mass infestors you need to spend nearly the same amount of Gas on HTs since they have no energy upgrade that gets them closer to being able to Feedback twice. And you don't have that gas as Protoss. Also High Templar are not easier to get. Protoss has o linear techpath like the other races, they have to choose. And usually they choose robo for obvious reasons and that denies Templar for some time. And IF you get those Templar you are far away from killing the infestors because to feedback a target the target has to have energy, so if the infestors have allready cast their spells the High templar are useless unless you have enough energy to storm and the enemy has a unit composition that can be effectively stormed. Not to mention the research.
"That's like somone walking into YOUR house and putting a plant down on the table and starting to water it. While he shoots you with a gun!" - Day9
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
September 09 2011 21:03 GMT
#6948
I just don't understand how all the drastic changes are happening to the mediocre races. Yet terrans get 5 seconds here or 5 seconds there, all these small adjustments when they are arguably the best performing race in sc2 by FAR. Just pisses me off.
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
September 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#6949

On September 10 2011 05:31 mFour wrote:
I can't believe how many Zerg players believe that mass Infestor should be viable. I'm happy about the NP nerf and hope it goes through..BUT Blizz needs to buff Hydras to give Zerg more options.


I don't understand why it should not be. :s
A race having a strategy revolving around caster as main unit with the support of dps units ( most of the time it's the other way around ) is a nice concept.
And it work at the moment. You just need to tweak them litely, not make them bad enough to force zerg to make corruptor again because this unit is just plain awfull.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
September 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#6950
Well I honestly don't like the change. Its not like the infestor NP was broken -.- I mean peeps complain bout FG but I don't think NP is as fearsome. NP doesn't really turn the tide of battle because you need to get in close anyways and so what it does it can end battles decisively rather than inconclusively, but it wasn't broken. Now my concern is super heavy thor centered mech play. Before, the counter to super thor heavy play was NP, but now what should I use? Roaches? Ling's? Mutas? Terran can mass a large thor-hellion push before blords can be out in sufficient number.
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
September 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#6951
Hydras = still bad.

Disappointed there was no hydra buff. I cannot remember the last time I saw a zerg use hydras in non ZvZs and even then its not common.
izgodlee
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada133 Posts
September 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#6952
On September 10 2011 05:34 ClutchSC wrote:
I don't think blizzard realizes what they are doing. By nerfing infestors as much as they are, they will ensuring that zerg players won't use them as often. This would be fine if they were counteracting this by making other units effective against protoss, however this has not happened yet. Also, since infestors will not be on the field as much anymore, suddenly zerg has no antiair since Hydras are not a viable unit in high-level matches. This would not neccessarily be the worst thing, except that warp prisms are getting a 60 shield buff and now zerg won't have antiair to deal with them. So thank you blizzard, your lack of forsight is once again evident.


By nerfing infestors, they are effectively going to improve toss win rates from the current 30%. good change blizzard ^_^~~
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
September 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#6953
On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:
On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun.


See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover.

Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable.

/shrugface?


Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.


Destiny is a mediocre zerg who plays against other mediocre players on the NA ladder. Nothing should be read into regarding the zerg race when it comes to the games you see on his stream.
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
September 09 2011 21:05 GMT
#6954
It's pretty disgusting that people are so happy about a nerf to another race no matter what it is. NP is terrible now. That's amazing for protoss and terran. They can make their big units with no worry about infestors. But doesn't that make the game a whole lot less interesting?

As a zerg player I thought reapers needed a nerf when the game came out, but what Blizzard did was too much. Blizzard over nerfed the reaper, I said so then and I'm still saying so now. They are a fucking cool unit and I wish they were viable, same with the carrier. Now they're over nerfing NP also. There are slowly becoming fewer viable units available to players and I think it's bad for the game.

If infestors need a nerf there are other ways to go about it. NP could cost more energy, more money to upgrade, more time to upgrade. It could have a shorter duration, or a shorter duration to massive. Hell, I'd rather them nerf fungal even more.

Infestors with NP are how I dealt with terran mech. Broodlords and ultras still won't be out in time to stop it. That leaves us with two choices that I can see - mass roach - and mass muta to the point where they can kill the thors. Both of those are TERRIBLE options.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
mFour
Profile Joined September 2011
United States25 Posts
September 09 2011 21:06 GMT
#6955
On September 10 2011 06:04 Lomak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:
On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:
On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun.


See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover.

Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable.

/shrugface?


Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.


Destiny is a mediocre zerg who plays against other mediocre players on the NA ladder. Nothing should be read into regarding the zerg race when it comes to the games you see on his stream.

I think Destiny is better than people give him credit for, but when the talk happens to be Infestors he should be the first name to pop into your head.
5/255
conz
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom163 Posts
September 09 2011 21:07 GMT
#6956
I find it strange that blizzard would do something so drastic so close to an expansion where they're most likely going to add to units and have to re-balance the game over again. but what's the point bitching about something until it's actually been played out and tested, adding more variety in play style in an rts game can surely only be a good thing and they have all the numbers data from every game played on bnet so I'm sure they can make a more informed decision than anybody on this forum.

If it breaks the game then it'll be sorted out within a few patches, I welcome the challenge and I roll zerg
TheRealDude: you were lucky you scouted
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
September 09 2011 21:08 GMT
#6957
On September 10 2011 05:48 Crisium wrote:
If Zergs still choose to upgrade and use NP at this point, it seems like Immortals and Siege Tanks are the targets of choice. Not quite as good as also having Colossi and Thors as options, so I can see why many will ignore this spell.



Units that can be NP usefully.

Protoss: Immortals, void rays
Terran: Tanks, ravens, banshees

The spell removed a lot of viable things that could be NP'd cost efficiently, but the thing is, even with the fungal growth nerf, they were still too effective against protoss.

The other idea is to lower the time to like 6 or 9 seconds. That would work for me.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Joseph123
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria1144 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 21:09:29
September 09 2011 21:09 GMT
#6958
On September 10 2011 06:08 darmousseh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 05:48 Crisium wrote:
If Zergs still choose to upgrade and use NP at this point, it seems like Immortals and Siege Tanks are the targets of choice. Not quite as good as also having Colossi and Thors as options, so I can see why many will ignore this spell.



Units that can be NP usefully.

Protoss: Immortals, void rays
Terran: Tanks, ravens, banshees

The spell removed a lot of viable things that could be NP'd cost efficiently, but the thing is, even with the fungal growth nerf, they were still too effective against protoss.

The other idea is to lower the time to like 6 or 9 seconds. That would work for me.

you definitely forgot the most important - high templars
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
September 09 2011 21:09 GMT
#6959
On September 10 2011 06:06 mFour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 06:04 Lomak wrote:
On September 10 2011 06:01 tntrieu wrote:
On September 10 2011 05:58 Jerubaal wrote:
On September 10 2011 05:46 phodacbiet wrote:
I am confused why are people crying about death ball? When can u ever neural a colossus? Blink/forcefield destroy any infestors that tries to get close and it is better (in my opinion) to get down fungals and infested terrans. I dont think this change will affect ZvP much (maybe it will who knows). What i do know is that Thors are gonna have fun with my base. Infestors nerf is gonna affect zvt more than zvp because marines takes longer to die and mech is fun.


See, NP was never actually used outside of bronze because it's so easy to avoid it and kill the infestors. It totally was not a super powerful spell and is easily mitigated if you aren't a 1 control group a-mover.

Regardless, it's still going to break the game for zerg and make PvZ totally unwinnable.

/shrugface?


Watch some of destiny's games. If toss goes gateway + colossus and zerg goes ling + infestor, it is basically an auto win for the zerg.


Destiny is a mediocre zerg who plays against other mediocre players on the NA ladder. Nothing should be read into regarding the zerg race when it comes to the games you see on his stream.

I think Destiny is better than people give him credit for, but when the talk happens to be Infestors he should be the first name to pop into your head.


Really why is that? Sure he uses them all the time but to be honest I've seen a lot better infestor control out of the likes of Idra (the few times he's used them in pro games) and other zergs.

The only reason people see infestor and think destiny is because that's all he uses. Same reason people see void ray + collosus and think Cruncher.
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
FromUndaChz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States7 Posts
September 09 2011 21:09 GMT
#6960
Infestors' neural parasite ability no longer works on massive units.


As a Terran, I appreciate this change... but I can't really say it's been much of a problem so I'm unsure what Blizzard is after here.

Can't wait to see Raven/Seeker Missile used more!!
Hell, it's about time...
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