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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Cain0
United Kingdom608 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:30 Roxy wrote: How about instead of stealing our massive units, you make your own? Ultralisk build time is only 55 seconds Yeh, but Ultralisks are fucking awful. | ||
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:26 Mafs wrote: Neural works better if protoss suck and don't know how to focus fire infestors. But yes, I think this is a good change for ZvP, keep zerg reactionary and force corruptors vs collosus. This change on the other hand is going to RUIN ZvT. As if mech isnt strong enough, now T can go pure thor and do a timing before BL are complete and demolish zerg. Horrid change, zerg now need a new unit that counters thor which doesn't require T3, or give ultras back a lot of splash so they can deal with clumped thors easier. I can't say that NP nerf would ruin ZvT. The problem with Infestors were their utility. They did Too Much. Deals with Deathballs/Mass Low-Tier units, Harassment with Infested Terrans. And they could potentially control your most expensive units with Neural Parasite. Ultras are also getting a production time speed buff anyways. Is there any need to buff them even more? With Zerg's production, they can just pop out ridiculously fast now and allow for some crazy tech switch. It looks like Blizzard is trying to nerf Mass Infestor play, which never made sense in the first place. There's something wrong with the Race and with the Unit itself when Zergs could mass a Support unit, and potentially dominate engagements with them. I believe that the Zerg tech tree needs a big revision. Especially with Hydras and their limited role. | ||
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:30 Roxy wrote: How about instead of stealing our massive units, you make your own? Ultralisk build time is only 55 seconds How about comparing mass ultra to mass thor? | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:31 mFour wrote: I can't believe how many Zerg players believe that mass Infestor should be viable. I'm happy about the NP nerf and hope it goes through..BUT Blizz needs to buff Hydras to give Zerg more options. Since when has mass infestor been viable in high level play? | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
Is Blizzard implying that all Terran and Protoss players have given their all to battle the infestor and found no ways? Please. The number of times that a P player actually took the liberty to target the NPing infestors can be counted on one hand. Zerg is the only race without an energy-draining spell.. Furthermore, what's the logic in nerfing the only REALLY good zerg unit without providing any other buffs? Hydras and corruptors STILL need work after months and months. | ||
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ClutchSC
Canada34 Posts
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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Moa
United States790 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:31 mFour wrote: I can't believe how many Zerg players believe that mass Infestor should be viable. I'm happy about the NP nerf and hope it goes through..BUT Blizz needs to buff Hydras to give Zerg more options. Of course it shouldn't be but I feel that nerfing them is not the option with how unexplored HTs are in PvZ. That said I don't mind the fungal nerf, it was probably needed (not an infestor user myself) but neural is a big lynchpin in zerg play to deal with fast collo or mass thors. Mass infestor should not be a go-to strategy but having neural as a reactive option is absolutely necessary with how prominent heavy tier 3 strats are from the other races. Usable NP =! mass infestor | ||
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Bashion
Cook Islands2612 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote: Since when has mass infestor been viable in high level play? Since they were buffed. | ||
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moshyesim
Germany31 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:30 Roxy wrote: How about instead of stealing our massive units, you make your own? Ultralisk build time is only 55 seconds which 1) sucks against marauders, marines, and zealots 2) it takes quite awhile before you can safely get ultras (or die. from almost anything) 3) the amount it costs isn't sustainable on 2 bases or anytime early like T or P can get their "massive units". | ||
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spacebob42
United States78 Posts
Another thing that I've seen is burrowed roaches. They effectively nullify the range advantage of a siege tank, and since mech is so gas-starved anyway, Ravens are hard to get. A third point is that not enough zergs, in my opinion, use zergling flanks. Their speed lets them get around a mech army easily, and hellions are usually bad against lings when they get surrounded. Just some thoughts. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:23 atavus wrote: Counter to colossi is Corrupters. Don't talk about choice Infester have become an all-in tool in every match up, this is definitively not normal. Show me a game where Zerg won against VR/Colossi or Stalker/colossi using Corruptors, and when the Zerg didn't take a fast third or Protoss didn't fall behind with their opening (like MC's stargate doing nothing to deny the third on XelNagaFortress). Infestors are an every-tool just like stalkers and marines. If you think infestors are too versatile, then nerf marines and stalkers. Stupid, right? And then there's ghosts and HT, which immediately kill infestors, where ghosts and HT can still attack/Archon. And dont tell me FG counters HT, because unless you ball them up + leave them out of position, they always kill. And FG/NP have to chained/channeled to work, so losing 10 infestors to 2 HT just to get one FG off on an army is riduclous. Not to mention HT are cheaper, come out faster, are faster to tech to, then infestors. Whoever said Protoss should play more reactionary than massing up some rigid build order for a timing attac, sounds great. | ||
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anrimayu
United States875 Posts
On September 10 2011 05:32 warblob004 wrote: How about comparing mass ultra to mass thor? Sounds like season 1 TvZ all over again. My mind was blown when I watched OS1 for the first time last week. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
Infestor Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new) cant say i didnt see this coming... but man, they HAVE to compensate zerg for this huge nerf. chargelot archon will be soo insanely strong against zerg now that you cant NP the archons (cuz archons count as massive units) this is also pretty much a buff to colos to. this pretty much means that in order to counter the colo death ball we will have to go back to outdated builds like corruptors or baneling carpet bombing. i REALLY hope they buff hydras because of this. if they dont compensate zerg in some way for this then im honestly going to switch to protoss. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
If they want to fix infestor in PvZ they should buff HT speed + Make archon immune to NP because mass neural somewhat break the counter that is zealot/archon Colossus on the other hand, have 9 range and have no excuses for getting NPed | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
List some high level games that feature mass infestor then. | ||
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SanDokaN_X
Bulgaria69 Posts
And the same is up for the mommaship. It just looks like a complete nonsense when a tiny infestor NPs the mighty starship. But that will make collosi much more effective in PvZ, considering zergs like to spam roach/infestor vs that kind of build. Infestor FG needed to be changed from "complete freeze" to "speed decrease", say something like 33% of the original unit's speed - just like ensnare. Immortal buff is good. So is the mothership acceleration increase. Faster ultras .... hmm maybe its ok but wasn't so nessecery. Hellion upgrade will now be useless... unless you get the +1 mech attack but that goes too far into the mid game and can't be successfully utilised by diamond players (like me). Overall it is a good patch. And a little theorycrafting: + Show Spoiler + carrier build time might be decreased and BCs buffed too. These high tech units REALLY need to find their spot in the game. It is not always exciting to see mass T1-T2 unit battles. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Let's be honest zerg players : the np change will not break the ZvP matchup. Most of the time zergs manage to kill protosses without neural. But the sole fact that neural exist, added to the fact that every zerg are making infestors are their core unit in ZvP, makes that protoss have just stopped using colossi, because they know that they're one research away to producing colossi not for their army, but for the zerg army. This change will allow robo builds to resurface, and it's needed. Yes, you can say "make templars". The problem is you can't have templars and colossi on 2 bases, and in the current state of the matchup, taking a 3rd is usually the moment protoss will die (except on tal'darim/daybreak perhaps). Yes, this change could be bad for ZvT. Yes, this change make it so they could just remove neural from the game, design-wise it's a bad change. But balance wise it's a very welcome change. The whine here is nearly a caricature of balance whine. | ||
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