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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 262

Forum Index > Closed
9040 CommentsPost a Reply
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Eko200
Profile Joined December 2010
United States101 Posts
September 09 2011 04:21 GMT
#5221
Maybe they mean NP will ONLY be able to target massive, that would make it so you wouldn't accidentally neural a stalker instead of a Colossus. Otherwise Neural Parasite will be officially the worst skill ever...
Wire
Profile Joined July 2009
United States494 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 04:22:16
September 09 2011 04:21 GMT
#5222
See this is interesting because blizzard is just dancing around the real issue, which I believe is infested terrans. They nerf everything else but not the fact that 4 infestor hit squad utterly destroys due to the cheap cost of 20 instamarines. This above all else is a huge pain in the ass, never mind the fungals and whatnot

Hopefully the nerf to neural parasite wont make it to patch. They'll probably figure out the real problem sooner or later
"You sacced your ovie, which is great, but then you didn't watch it die, which is bad :("
rfoster
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1005 Posts
September 09 2011 04:21 GMT
#5223
As much as love to see the neural parasite change go through; I really doubt that it will Lets all relax and see how the PTR goes.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 04:23:31
September 09 2011 04:21 GMT
#5224
What the fucking hell? Remove Archon being massive then, this way Blizzard just removed ling-banling-infestor from my ZvP, everyone will just go archons, jesus christ this is horribad, how stupid can they be to throw one just in there like that, that's the biggest nerf of all, not that Zergs needed it.

And mass thors i dont even....

And i dont fix the baneling on colossus bug apparently

On September 09 2011 13:21 Wire wrote:
See this is interesting because blizzard is just dancing around the real issue, which I believe is infested terrans. They nerf everything else but not the fact that 4 infestor hit squad utterly destroys due to the cheap cost of 20 instamarines. This above all else is a huge pain in the ass, never mind the fungals and whatnot

Hopefully the nerf to neural parasite wont make it to patch. They'll probably figure out the real problem sooner or later

they are not insta, and are not marines since lack mobilty, stim and arent healed by anything. But by all means, nerf inf terrans rather then NP, i will take that
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
nuMi22
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom165 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5225
I can't possibly imagine this going through, it's just way too much. Colossus balls are going to be so damn good...
Jaedong. That is all.
R0YAL
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1768 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5226
On September 09 2011 13:19 eviltomahawk wrote:
Changes to 1.4 PTR have been posted:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

Changes are italicized.

Copy+Paste from the closed thread:
I tried to compile the updates:
Show nested quote +

Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

Custom maps with dependencies containing trigger libraries will now load significantly faster in the editor.

Fixed an issue where at the end of a replay the leaving player’s Average APM would set to 0.

Fixed an issue where Bunkers would not display their refunded minerals to the owner or allies when they are salvaged.


Fixed an issue where Broodlords on the high ground would not be revealed when attacking enemy units on the low ground.

Fixed an issue where closing the editor while the previewer is recording would crash the Editor.


It looks like the Broodlord high ground advantage got fixed:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252693

And of course there is the obligatory Bunker change.

Isn't that the point of neural? How does Blizz envision NP when they designed it?... This would make fungal trump NP in almost all situations apart from some cutesy stuff. And its still a research ability -_- Fungal is the ability that they need to tweak, not neural.. FG has the worst game design of any ability in the game for an esport.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5227
On September 09 2011 13:18 desrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:16 zJayy962 wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??



U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use


Actually you can feedback when you are fungal'd. Maybe you should learn a little more about the game.

they fungal then run away then ur out of range don't play with the words u dumb nut


I didn't play with words. What you said was you can't feedback when you are fungal'd so I corrected you.

And also if they are able to cast a fungal you are able to cast a feedback since they have similar range.
Synche
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1345 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5228
The question is why Blizzard thinks they needed this nerf. It's aimed at ZvP, it seems to me, its the only matchup where it seems remotely OP.

But any nerf to Z makes T that much crazier, and I play T. This change in isolation without some T nerfs is not good for the game.
tribulator
Profile Joined February 2011
774 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5229
Awesome... now I get to lose all my ZvP's to deathball again.

And infestor-ling in ZvP is just nonviable due to colossus existing. It forces the matchup back into roach-hydra-corrupter, and we all know how well that worked out.
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
September 09 2011 04:22 GMT
#5230
On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??



U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use



spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks.

terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP.

zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly?

zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die

people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
September 09 2011 04:23 GMT
#5231
On September 09 2011 13:17 Empirimancer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:09 Fig wrote:
You can see what blizzard is aiming for.

They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all.



If that's the goal, they should give Zerg units good enough to beat 'deathball' compositions like Protoss Colossus/stalker/etc and Terran mech. The admittedly very powerful and very versatile infestor made up for the weakness and lack of versatility of the rest of the Zerg units.


Terran/Protoss player here.



Seriously?!?!?!?!
You quote only half of my post?????????
Here you go, this is the rest of it, stop being childish.

"You can see what blizzard is aiming for.

They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all.

In return, they buffed ultras to make them a more legitimate late game option, and buffed overseers to detect the invisible stuff that zergs had previously been using mass infestors to fungal.

They want unit diversity! If it turns out that those buffs aren't enough, they will give zergs more! Plain and simple!"
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
rebuffering
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2436 Posts
September 09 2011 04:23 GMT
#5232
yeah i would have to agree, as a masters toss player, not letting an infestor NP a massive unit, is just a terrible idea, it never was game ending anywyas, infested terran and fungals are just better overall, and now basically taking NP out of the equation for the majority of that spells use, im baffled. I wonder if they are just using info and stats from the PTR to determine this, seems like a bad idea, what can i say. Hope they dont go through with it.
http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg
Elwar
Profile Joined August 2010
953 Posts
September 09 2011 04:23 GMT
#5233
Corruptors already deal with colossus very easily, but the change wont go through because mass-thor would return as king of TvZ with the gigantic pre-broodlord timings.
Tektos
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1321 Posts
September 09 2011 04:23 GMT
#5234
Theory crafting, which units will be viable NP targets now?

Immortals
High Templar
Tanks
Ghosts
Warp prisms/dropships to kill them (although, a fungal usually deals with these anyway)


Any I'm leaving out?
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
September 09 2011 04:23 GMT
#5235
On September 09 2011 13:09 hmunkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:02 Sajaki wrote:
what? a 2 food unit cant neural parasite a 6 food, much more expensive unit? Totally imba, right?
So glad ^_^ Keeping colossus alive nowadays is hard enough but having them stolen (and unable to blink and kill the infestors due to fungal root) was too good against our tech.

Bad logic. If your complaint is that a 2 food unit can kill a 6 food unit, what about the fact that a 6 food unit can kill 30 supply of zerg units?


No. My complaint is that a 2 food unit cannot only remove a 6 food unit from tosses arsenal, but use that same unit to "kill 30 supply" of protoss units (exaggeration much?). A zerg unit which is entirely common to see 15+ of per game...

Besides if zerg actually techs to hive, a combination of ling infestor broodlord (or replace lings with roach) can match a similar cost protoss deathball quite handily.
Inno pls...
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
September 09 2011 04:24 GMT
#5236
On September 09 2011 13:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NP was an overpowered spell imo when you could get it off. You literally gain control of units much more expensive than your own infestors and turn it against them. Doesn't seem fair to me. Also the range is ridiculously long so it's actually pretty difficult to stop because blinking into them is just suicide sometimes. I don't like the spell the way it was with the range it was given. Range reduction might have been a better nerf.

I would be fine if they nerfed the range and/or the duration of the NP control.

Going this far is borderline idiotic. They might as well just remove the spell completely instead of dancing around the issue.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 09 2011 04:24 GMT
#5237
On September 09 2011 13:21 Geo.Rion wrote:
What the fucking hell? Remove Archon being massive then, this way Blizzard just removed ling-banling-infestor from my ZvP, everyone will just go archons, jesus christ this is horribad, how stupid can they be to throw one just in there like that, that's the biggest nerf of all, not that Zergs needed it.

And mass thors i dont even....

And i dont fix the baneling on colossus bug apparently

Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:21 Wire wrote:
See this is interesting because blizzard is just dancing around the real issue, which I believe is infested terrans. They nerf everything else but not the fact that 4 infestor hit squad utterly destroys due to the cheap cost of 20 instamarines. This above all else is a huge pain in the ass, never mind the fungals and whatnot

Hopefully the nerf to neural parasite wont make it to patch. They'll probably figure out the real problem sooner or later

they are not insta, and are not marines since lack mobilty, stim and arent healed by anything. But by all means, nerf inf terrans rather then NP, i will take that


Brood lords still shit all over mass thor. I don't know why zerg are suddenly afraid of it.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 09 2011 04:24 GMT
#5238
On September 09 2011 13:01 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 12:58 Treble557 wrote:
On September 09 2011 12:56 Whitewing wrote:
On September 09 2011 12:51 Belial88 wrote:
I swear to god, if Blizzard makes it so you can't NP massive units, I will switch to Terran. I just fucking hit #1 Master with Zerg too.

Because of this change, I will also be only playing on the PTR.

NP is the only counter Zerg has to archons until broodlords, which is impossible to get even against 3 base timing pushes. Mass roach is okay, but has it's own problems against immortals and doesn't cut it against archons forever.

And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders. Baneling rain is lol against stalkers or air play.

And then BC's and Carriers (as rare as they show up) are ridiculously hard to deal with without NP. And motherships are a huge pain too without NP.

I don't think NP is that great against mech, you're better off with mass muta (especially if siege tank count is high, which any decent mech will do, and mass roach is better against mass thor), since BL is a better investment in gas than infestors, but it's still obnoxious.

And in ZvZ is was necessary to NP broodlords, as an option to making Corruptors, instead of games being a stupid fucking mass spine wall to broodlord/roach on 3 base.

I'm not even kidding. I will switch to terran if this change goes through.


Roaches and hydras both do very well vs. archons. You can neural the immortals. Zerg does have a counter to colossi: spam fungal the army while keeping your army at range and make brood lords. Broods do pretty damn well vs. units that don't shoot up like colossi last time I checked. Carriers get roflstomped by hydras (and you can fungal the interceptors, lawl). Mothership might be a decent point, but at the same time, with neural on the mothership, the ship does nothing at all in the matchup in protoss's favor. Making one was basically giving the zerg a vortex on your own army. Oh, and baneling drops are fantastic on stalker balls, very cost effective if you can get the baneling to hit more than 3 stalkers, and remember, you're ahead on resources anyway so you don't even need to be cost effective.



Is this a joke post? None of that is true.


You're saying you can't spam fungal the army while staying away from the protoss units that literally can't move? Are you saying you can't neural parasite immortals? Oh, are you saying colossi are good against brood lords? Oh, perhaps you think baneling drops aren't cost effective on stalker balls, but the math proves you wrong, search it. Oh, maybe you meant that zerg isn't ahead on resources normally? Your post is possibly the most idiotic thing that occurs on this forum: not reading and just denying everything flat out.


You realize FG has to be chained, just a single FG is worthless. And Colossi outrage infestors, so infestors always die doing a 40 damage spell, and then there's blink sniping. There's also HT FB, and unless you clump them up all horribly or lead your army with them, getting a single FG off and losing 10 infestors to a 3 HT int he process, is not nearly worth it at all.

Infestors are very versatile, but saying they should be removed just because of this is ridiculous. Marines and stalkers are also extremely versatile, and Zerg has no marine or stalker. What's more, is while infestors are awesome, they are just so hard countered by the much cheaper, much faster to get HT,which can be warped, counters what infestors generally come with, and you only need 2-3 to make an infestor army useless, whereas Zerg needs 10+ infestors for a sizeable, decent army.

And baneling drops aren't good at all on stalker balls... any decent Protoss knows stalkers is the 'counter' to baneling rain. MC used FF to hold off ground armies and blink to deal with overlords in the GSL finals vs July on Xel Naga, and Liquid'Hero constantly shows on his stream how to own baneling rain with blink stalkers with amazing split micro (kind of like marine splitting but a shitton easier).

A lot of Zergs also say Ultras are much better against Colossi than BL (idra, destiny, spanishiwa, etc), and Colossi are faster than BL, clean up broodlings, and blink and Vr can handle broodlords. 2 upgraded blink stalkers beat a single broodlord, or just 3 plain stalkers.

Roaches and hydras are known to be horrible vs archons, broods dont come in time against even 3 base pushes, carriers actually own hydras. Everything you say is just so, so wrong, and it's obvious you don't play Zerg.

I don't know where you think you got your information, but I'm a Master Zerg, and I'm also *not* trolling, so I have no idea what you are talking about. You also don't have to be so goddamn mean, if you have certain opinions that's fine, but you don't need to be mean about it.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
BigKahunaBurger
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia334 Posts
September 09 2011 04:24 GMT
#5239
On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?

Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?

Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.

Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research.

good so infestor still has 2 great spells.......


It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out?

Great spell.
GwSC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1997 Posts
September 09 2011 04:25 GMT
#5240
Wow, at least reduce the energy cost if you are going to gut NP like that..
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