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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 263

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9040 CommentsPost a Reply
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
zaii
Profile Joined October 2010
Guam2611 Posts
September 09 2011 04:25 GMT
#5241
On September 09 2011 13:08 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:04 pallad wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:00 arb wrote:
Cant NP thors either now ><

That's gonna make ZvT a bitch


Yes i write same thing couple post ago.

Now Tanks , thor some hellions and marines will own zerg hard . Now you can fungal marines , NP thors to kill tanks and attack whit roches...

After patch i dont see any pro player win ( as zerg) vs terran mech , blizzard is blind or what ???


Did I miss the patch notes where they removed Brood Lords?


The Ghosts say Hi
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
September 09 2011 04:25 GMT
#5242
On September 09 2011 13:23 Tektos wrote:
Theory crafting, which units will be viable NP targets now?

Immortals
High Templar
Tanks
Ghosts
Warp prisms/dropships to kill them (although, a fungal usually deals with these anyway)


Any I'm leaving out?


all air units
Inno pls...
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 09 2011 04:25 GMT
#5243
On September 09 2011 13:23 Tektos wrote:
Theory crafting, which units will be viable NP targets now?

Immortals
High Templar
Tanks
Ghosts
Warp prisms/dropships to kill them (although, a fungal usually deals with these anyway)


Any I'm leaving out?


Void Rays are usually a good choice too, as are ravens (Yay PDD for zerg).
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
September 09 2011 04:26 GMT
#5244
So, good units to NP:

Toss:

-HT
-Sentries (maybe)
-Immortals
-Voids

Terran:

-Siege tanks
-Ghosts

What else?
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
Mayor
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States472 Posts
September 09 2011 04:26 GMT
#5245
You know, it's an interesting change, I'm not going to outright say it's bad, but it's...interesting. I don't agree with it, though. ZvP will just degenerate back to the one dimensional 2 base all ins from zerg every game, while protoss get's their deathball and just kinda wins. I think that making the infestors a horrible unit isn't the solution to the problems.
"You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
Breadstick
Profile Joined October 2010
United States54 Posts
September 09 2011 04:26 GMT
#5246
On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?

Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?

Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.

Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research.

good so infestor still has 2 great spells.......


It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out?

Great spell.


yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit

...
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 09 2011 04:26 GMT
#5247
On September 09 2011 13:25 zaii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:08 Alzadar wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:04 pallad wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:00 arb wrote:
Cant NP thors either now ><

That's gonna make ZvT a bitch


Yes i write same thing couple post ago.

Now Tanks , thor some hellions and marines will own zerg hard . Now you can fungal marines , NP thors to kill tanks and attack whit roches...

After patch i dont see any pro player win ( as zerg) vs terran mech , blizzard is blind or what ???


Did I miss the patch notes where they removed Brood Lords?


The Ghosts say Hi


If you let the terran go mass thor with heavy ghost support, you kinda deserve to lose. There's no way a terran can build an army like that without being heavily vulnerable at some point.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
September 09 2011 04:26 GMT
#5248
Still wondering why Zerg / Protoss always get the HARD nerfs in terms of upgrade removes / unit nerfs while i can't really remember a HUGE Terran nerf, even though they're by far the race
that needs it the most.
wat
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5249
On September 09 2011 13:19 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Mech! Rollin' out!

NP is going to seem a little pointless now. The Terran part of me is happy...the Starcraft part of me is not really. But it is just PTR. We'll see how it goes!

Can still NP the following units:
- Tanks
- Immortals
- Templar
- Ghosts (and I guess, ravens)
- Void Rays

All of which can be influential on a battle. Albeit, this is a significant nerf but there are still possibilities.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
arterian
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1157 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5250
On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?

Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?

Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.

Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research.

good so infestor still has 2 great spells.......


It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out?

Great spell.


Well, at least you know if you get the first fungal you're guaranteed the next 9.
http://www.twitch.tv/arterian
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5251
On September 09 2011 13:26 Mayor wrote:
You know, it's an interesting change, I'm not going to outright say it's bad, but it's...interesting. I don't agree with it, though. ZvP will just degenerate back to the one dimensional 2 base all ins from zerg every game, while protoss get's their deathball and just kinda wins. I think that making the infestors a horrible unit isn't the solution to the problems.


Yes, because fungals and infested terrans are useless now.
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5252
On September 09 2011 13:23 Fig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:17 Empirimancer wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:09 Fig wrote:
You can see what blizzard is aiming for.

They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all.



If that's the goal, they should give Zerg units good enough to beat 'deathball' compositions like Protoss Colossus/stalker/etc and Terran mech. The admittedly very powerful and very versatile infestor made up for the weakness and lack of versatility of the rest of the Zerg units.


Terran/Protoss player here.



Seriously?!?!?!?!
You quote only half of my post?????????
Here you go, this is the rest of it, stop being childish.

"You can see what blizzard is aiming for.

They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all.

In return, they buffed ultras to make them a more legitimate late game option, and buffed overseers to detect the invisible stuff that zergs had previously been using mass infestors to fungal.

They want unit diversity! If it turns out that those buffs aren't enough, they will give zergs more! Plain and simple!"



I didn't quote the rest of your post to avoid embarrassing you. "If it turns out those buffs aren't enough?" Well of course a reduction to Ultra build time isn't enough. And telling Zergs players to just hold on for a month or three while Blizzard realizes how badly they've screwed up isn't intelligent.

doomed
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia420 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5253
People please remember its the PTR server, the place to test how radical changes would change certain things. Like when they took off 10 secs of the zealot buildtime... it was never a strait up test this because we will implement it, it's more let's see what happens.

So go play on the PTR and stop speculating so much, help them test it, the data from people playing is the best way for them to know NOT to implement it if it's all wrong.
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 04:27:41
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5254
Is this a joke, that Blizz would even consider this change? I like how they just casually think to completely remove one of the most essential tools Zerg has.

Infestors will simply become a less-reliable and over-priced version of banelings. What counters Zealot/Archon if you're Zerg? Or what counters mass Thors?

If they remove NP, then they should get rid of the greater spire, and make broodlords a T2 unit. Or buff hydras. These things might imbalance the game in other ways, but if they make this huge change to NP - and don't give Zerg a different weapon against Archons - then Zerg will be broken against certain builds.

Zerg is the "reactionary" race, supposedly, yet they have a really hard time hard-countering anything. And yet, Zerg evaporates so easily if the unit compositions aren't favorable. NP was one of those things that let Zerg actually be cost-efficient. Can we please just leave it the hell alone?
Big water
Nomad123
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
95 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5255
On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:
On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??



U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use



spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks.

terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP.

zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly?

zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die

people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit



you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you.

HT and fungal are same range.

spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors.

Mikelius
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany517 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5256
On September 09 2011 13:26 Dalguno wrote:
So, good units to NP:

Toss:

-HT
-Sentries (maybe)
-Immortals
-Voids

Terran:

-Siege tanks
-Ghosts

What else?


Banshees, Ravens, Medivacs?
Less QQ, more PewPew
Ravar
Profile Joined June 2011
United States447 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5257
On September 09 2011 13:25 Sajaki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:23 Tektos wrote:
Theory crafting, which units will be viable NP targets now?

Immortals
High Templar
Tanks
Ghosts
Warp prisms/dropships to kill them (although, a fungal usually deals with these anyway)


Any I'm leaving out?


all air units


Not motherships, battlecruisers, or carriers though
Yeah bitch, magnets
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5258
It's only bad because it will be a very niche spell now. I would say let the infestor start with neural now
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
September 09 2011 04:27 GMT
#5259
On September 09 2011 13:24 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 13:01 Whitewing wrote:
On September 09 2011 12:58 Treble557 wrote:
On September 09 2011 12:56 Whitewing wrote:
On September 09 2011 12:51 Belial88 wrote:
I swear to god, if Blizzard makes it so you can't NP massive units, I will switch to Terran. I just fucking hit #1 Master with Zerg too.

Because of this change, I will also be only playing on the PTR.

NP is the only counter Zerg has to archons until broodlords, which is impossible to get even against 3 base timing pushes. Mass roach is okay, but has it's own problems against immortals and doesn't cut it against archons forever.

And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders. Baneling rain is lol against stalkers or air play.

And then BC's and Carriers (as rare as they show up) are ridiculously hard to deal with without NP. And motherships are a huge pain too without NP.

I don't think NP is that great against mech, you're better off with mass muta (especially if siege tank count is high, which any decent mech will do, and mass roach is better against mass thor), since BL is a better investment in gas than infestors, but it's still obnoxious.

And in ZvZ is was necessary to NP broodlords, as an option to making Corruptors, instead of games being a stupid fucking mass spine wall to broodlord/roach on 3 base.

I'm not even kidding. I will switch to terran if this change goes through.


Roaches and hydras both do very well vs. archons. You can neural the immortals. Zerg does have a counter to colossi: spam fungal the army while keeping your army at range and make brood lords. Broods do pretty damn well vs. units that don't shoot up like colossi last time I checked. Carriers get roflstomped by hydras (and you can fungal the interceptors, lawl). Mothership might be a decent point, but at the same time, with neural on the mothership, the ship does nothing at all in the matchup in protoss's favor. Making one was basically giving the zerg a vortex on your own army. Oh, and baneling drops are fantastic on stalker balls, very cost effective if you can get the baneling to hit more than 3 stalkers, and remember, you're ahead on resources anyway so you don't even need to be cost effective.



Is this a joke post? None of that is true.


You're saying you can't spam fungal the army while staying away from the protoss units that literally can't move? Are you saying you can't neural parasite immortals? Oh, are you saying colossi are good against brood lords? Oh, perhaps you think baneling drops aren't cost effective on stalker balls, but the math proves you wrong, search it. Oh, maybe you meant that zerg isn't ahead on resources normally? Your post is possibly the most idiotic thing that occurs on this forum: not reading and just denying everything flat out.


You realize FG has to be chained, just a single FG is worthless. And Colossi outrage infestors, so infestors always die doing a 40 damage spell, and then there's blink sniping. There's also HT FB, and unless you clump them up all horribly or lead your army with them, getting a single FG off and losing 10 infestors to a 3 HT int he process, is not nearly worth it at all.

Infestors are very versatile, but saying they should be removed just because of this is ridiculous. Marines and stalkers are also extremely versatile, and Zerg has no marine or stalker. What's more, is while infestors are awesome, they are just so hard countered by the much cheaper, much faster to get HT,which can be warped, counters what infestors generally come with, and you only need 2-3 to make an infestor army useless, whereas Zerg needs 10+ infestors for a sizeable, decent army.

And baneling drops aren't good at all on stalker balls... any decent Protoss knows stalkers is the 'counter' to baneling rain. MC used FF to hold off ground armies and blink to deal with overlords in the GSL finals vs July on Xel Naga, and Liquid'Hero constantly shows on his stream how to own baneling rain with blink stalkers with amazing split micro (kind of like marine splitting but a shitton easier).

A lot of Zergs also say Ultras are much better against Colossi than BL (idra, destiny, spanishiwa, etc), and Colossi are faster than BL, clean up broodlings, and blink and Vr can handle broodlords. 2 upgraded blink stalkers beat a single broodlord, or just 3 plain stalkers.

Roaches and hydras are known to be horrible vs archons, broods dont come in time against even 3 base pushes, carriers actually own hydras. Everything you say is just so, so wrong, and it's obvious you don't play Zerg.

I don't know where you think you got your information, but I'm a Master Zerg, and I'm also *not* trolling, so I have no idea what you are talking about. You also don't have to be so goddamn mean, if you have certain opinions that's fine, but you don't need to be mean about it.

Chaining FGs is a lot easier than chaining anything else

Roaches are horrible against archons? I don't even... what???? Carriers own hydras? Who the hell cares what carriers own?
McGuire72
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada140 Posts
September 09 2011 04:28 GMT
#5260
I don't mind this change against collosus because zerg already has a counter unit for collosus, which is corruptors. I know we zergs hate making corruptors because they eat up supply, but really if the opponent has more than two collosi corruptors are a great option for sniping them, and they transition perfectly into broodlords later in the game.

Now, for TvZ.... this is just gonna be retarded. As if terran doesn't already have 50 bazillion ways to cheese/one-base zerg, plus the formidable marine-tank timing attacks that work any time in the game, but now mech is going to be basically unbeatable.
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