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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 12:46 Darclite wrote:
Just want to point out that everyone should keep in mind the infestor change is coupled with the ultra change and ultras (well upgraded I'll admit) are decent units now that they have a much faster build time.
^ thank you for pointing this out.
Blizzard really wants zerg to go to hive tech and not rely solely on infestors so much.
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Oh boy, what is zerg going to do against mech now?
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On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ...
Yeah actually, I'm correct in this.
Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now.
This "certain unit" is going to wreck face.
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Zealot/Archon certainly just got better, silly change imo, cuts out like 90% of the things you want to neural in the first place, you're pretty much left with immortals, tanks, ghosts, and other infestors, maybe ravens. Anything else is too numerous or is massive.
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On September 09 2011 13:25 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:08 Alzadar wrote:On September 09 2011 13:04 pallad wrote:On September 09 2011 13:00 arb wrote:
Cant NP thors either now ><
That's gonna make ZvT a bitch Yes i write same thing couple post ago. Now Tanks , thor some hellions and marines will own zerg hard . Now you can fungal marines , NP thors to kill tanks and attack whit roches... After patch i dont see any pro player win ( as zerg) vs terran mech , blizzard is blind or what ??? Did I miss the patch notes where they removed Brood Lords? The Ghosts say Hi
1. Neural parasite SCV, build CC, Barack, ghost academy.
2. Build ghosts
3. EMP his ghosts
4. Win!
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On September 09 2011 13:22 tribulator wrote:
Awesome... now I get to lose all my ZvP's to deathball again.
And infestor-ling in ZvP is just nonviable due to colossus existing. It forces the matchup back into roach-hydra-corrupter, and we all know how well that worked out.
roach/lings/banelings/infestors is still gonna work just as well considering the main role of infestor in that composition was to fungal so u can drop all the banelings
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On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ...
This exactly.
If they're using thors then over 9000 infested terrans seems like a better option than spamming fungal growth.
On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Yeah actually, I'm correct in this.
Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now.
This "certain unit" is going to wreck face.
Zerglings, roaches, hydras, broodlords, buffed ultras.
Pretty much anything besides mutas / infestors / corruptors works against them.
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On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors.
you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed
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On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face.
so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't
you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know
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On September 09 2011 12:47 Treble557 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:43 Fig wrote:
I have always thought that infestors were too much of an all-purpose caster. They literally could counter groups of units or single stronger units. Now they can only do the former, which means that you can't just blindly mass them anymore. Much better overall for the game to increase unit diversity. The day you aren't allowed to have more then 4 massive units on the field at once as terran and toss, is the day this change becomes balanced. :>
your logic is just stupid. Zerg currently has the only viable capital ship and ultras received a significant buff. infestors are just too good.
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On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed
They have the same speed?
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On September 09 2011 13:28 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:46 Darclite wrote:
Just want to point out that everyone should keep in mind the infestor change is coupled with the ultra change and ultras (well upgraded I'll admit) are decent units now that they have a much faster build time. ^ thank you for pointing this out. Blizzard really wants zerg to go to hive tech and not rely solely on infestors so much.
Zergs have to go hive to win anyways. I dont see that as a valid reason.
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This is absurdly retarded if this actually makes it in to the final release of this patch. They might as well remove the ability from the game in that case. I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the Protoss deathball would possible be too strong, but the worst aspect of it is that it'll make the battles in PvZ less dynamic. Besides if Protoss actually kept their cols behide the bulk of their army then the infesters would have a tough time getting in range, but I see too often that they have them standing in the middle of their main army, but what do I know of it. As I see it Protoss have room to improve their play vs. NP. It's only a skill limit at this point as I see it. Increasing the energy cost of NP would be a better option or something. It feels like Blizzard are giving Protoss safey wheels on like parents do with bicycles for their kids by nefing NP this hard.
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On September 09 2011 13:27 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:26 Dalguno wrote:
So, good units to NP:
Toss:
-HT
-Sentries (maybe)
-Immortals
-Voids
Terran:
-Siege tanks
-Ghosts
What else? Banshees, Ravens, Medivacs?
Researching NP... to control.. a freaking sentry?! Really? You're in the middle of a massive battle and you're going to use all your APM pinpointing the high-energy sentry in a ball and laying down 4 FFs that a collosus is going to walk over and destroy anyway? Come on.
Or a Ghost? Why? To EMP the terran army? This is ridiculous. NP is going to be useless without the ability to target massive units.
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On September 09 2011 13:27 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:23 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 13:17 Empirimancer wrote:On September 09 2011 13:09 Fig wrote:
You can see what blizzard is aiming for.
They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all.
If that's the goal, they should give Zerg units good enough to beat 'deathball' compositions like Protoss Colossus/stalker/etc and Terran mech. The admittedly very powerful and very versatile infestor made up for the weakness and lack of versatility of the rest of the Zerg units. Terran/Protoss player here. Seriously?!?!?!?! You quote only half of my post????????? Here you go, this is the rest of it, stop being childish. "You can see what blizzard is aiming for. They don't want people solely massing infestors, which many people were, so they nerfed it to not be a cure-all. In return, they buffed ultras to make them a more legitimate late game option, and buffed overseers to detect the invisible stuff that zergs had previously been using mass infestors to fungal. They want unit diversity! If it turns out that those buffs aren't enough, they will give zergs more! Plain and simple!" I didn't quote the rest of your post to avoid embarrassing you. "If it turns out those buffs aren't enough?" Well of course a reduction to Ultra build time isn't enough. And telling Zergs players to just hold on for a month or three while Blizzard realizes how badly they've screwed up isn't intelligent.
Well ultras do hard counter that "Protoss Colossus/stalker/etc" deathball you were specifically talking about. And don't tell a protoss about "holding on for a month or three."
AND don't quote a post and only take half the argument, that is not cool.
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On September 09 2011 13:30 Dalguno wrote:
They have the same speed?
Nope.
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need collosus to be a viable unit again, amirite? TROLLOLOLOLOLOL
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On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell.
it takes many storm to kill a thor as well... I still think it's a good spell lol
I'm really not sure what your point was
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On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know
I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords.
Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors.
The infestor is a necessary unit.
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If there are no more NP on massive units, then that means TvZ mech will be really strong in mid game. Personally I hope it doesn't fall through for zerg's sake, atm NP is reasonably balanced and forces more skill to deal with infestors by using ghosts or focus firing them in battle.
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EPT
