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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
As a Zerg player I agree with most of this patch.
but what i don't agree with are the changes to Fungal and Ultra.
Fungal damage is fine, what isin't fine is that units caught in a fungal are immobile and vulnerable to chain fungal to which they can't respond to. I would prefer if Fungal Reduced movement speed by 50% or something rather then a complete root effect.
15 seconds of the build time of Ultras is a BIG deal, won't lie, but i doubt we'll see a lot more use ou of them because the main problem with ultras is they're size/pathing as well as they're cost, they cost the same amount of minerals, gas and supply as a Colossus and yet even 10 ultras just disappear against enemy death and bio balls because of how damn good ghosts, marauders and Immortals are against ultras.
I would have preferred a reduction in Cost (both resource and supply), reduction in size allowing it to path better and maybe a little less damage vs Armored if the other changes prove to be too good.
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On August 25 2011 23:21 R4TM wrote:
Seriously i want to see how immortals will be now... i have a feeling it will be a bit overpowered now, for terrans and for Zerg, Ultras will be "useless" in TvZ, lets see, no change in the hidra? fail
The other changes are cool, this patch gives a lot of modifications though some major stuff was left aside.
Don't go mass roach, immortals are not particularly good versus lings. Ghosts still take care of immortals easily.
On August 25 2011 23:23 Phoobie wrote:
As a Zerg player I agree with most of this patch.
but what i don't agree with are the changes to Fungal and Ultra.
Fungal damage is fine, what isin't fine is that units caught in a fungal are immobile and vulnerable to chain fungal to which they can't respond to. I would prefer if Fungal Reduced movement speed by 50% or something rather then a complete root effect.
15 seconds of the build time of Ultras is a BIG deal, won't lie, but i doubt we'll see a lot more use ou of them because the main problem with ultras is they're size/pathing as well as they're cost, they cost the same amount of minerals, gas and supply as a Colossus and yet even 10 ultras just disappear against enemy death and bio balls because of how damn good ghosts, marauders and Immortals are against ultras.
I would have preferred a reduction in Cost (both resource and supply), reduction in size allowing it to path better and maybe a little less damage vs Armored if the other changes prove to be too good.
If you do a quick switch to a ton of ultras at once the protoss is not going to have immortals if you're going something like ling/infestor. Immortals also take a good bit of time to build and only come out of the robo one at a time.
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New Blue Flame Hellion input:
1 - The nerf will discourage Terran players from getting the upgrade more often unless they'll be doing a mech build. (This in vice versa will give away more of a mech build to the opponent when used.)
2 - There will be packs of a lot more BF Hellions for drone/probe/scv harrass. You'll never see less than 3 or 4.
3 - Fully shield regenerated probe will keep them alive from a hellion shot a second time around.
4 - Banelings can no longer be 2 shotted.
5 - Last and obviously, you need more than 2 Hellions shots to kill workers.
In general the nerf does balance the fact that opponents have more time to destroy hellions before their damage can be done. In the past they can destroy your whole economy and still get away with minimal losses.
New Fungal Growth input:
1 - Can't 2-shot Infestors in ZvZ anymore.
2 - Can't 1 shot lings in ZvZ anymore.
3 - Have to be more patient and precise vs Marines (2 perfect fungals for 60 damage vs 55 HP)
4 - Medivacs drops will do more damage vs Infestor play (They'll keep more marines alive)
5 - Four absolutely perfect fungals are now needed to kill stalkers (you'll never pull that off)
6 - Four absolutely perfect fungals are needed to ensure you kill a pack of Zealots.
In general the nerf is to encourage zergs to use it as a hold for a counter unit to do it's damage, rather than relying on the infestor alone to destroy protoss units and marines. It also makes ZvZ more interesting no doubt for sure.
My complaints:
No Hydralisk change and a unnecessary Immortal buff.
Warp Prisms are already overpowered (Drop 4 DTs and warp in units equivalent to the amount of gateways is already a guaranteed expo killer by itself. They are also impossible to catch with their speed upgrade.)
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Man.... Zergs are going to start crying again now that Infestors don't kill everything immediately. I also would've liked to have seen a better buff for the Ultralisk than less build time. All in all, though, great patch. It sounds like they were listening to that State of the Game episode lol.
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On August 25 2011 23:21 R4TM wrote:
Seriously i want to see how immortals will be now... i have a feeling it will be a bit overpowered now, for terrans and for Zerg, Ultras will be "useless" in TvZ, lets see, no change in the hidra? fail
The other changes are cool, this patch gives a lot of modifications though some major stuff was left aside.
I completely disagree, the Ultra's just got a huge timing buff, and unless someone goes mass immortal (which would be dumb) then there is not a huge change, just more immortal shots per battle. As well, they are a tank unit, if you go mass ultra with no backup you deserve to lose, make some hydra or muta or ling or.... you get the picture? Immortal could be OP? They got 1 range, that they desperately needed (coming from a Z player).
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Wow, these are MONEY changes. I love them all.
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On August 25 2011 23:21 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 23:05 Atrimex wrote:On August 25 2011 22:17 Doz wrote:
In case this hasn't been answered yet, the reason for the barracks change is due to the 11/11 rax and 12/14 rax builds in tvz.
As much as a I feel a zerg should be able to be punished for expanding before building any combat units, this change should decrease slightly the amount of pressure a terran can put on in the first 4 minutes But now zerg can macro up without any disturbance. Terra will loose the early midgame advantage and dont get any late game buff for it. Welcome to PvZ.
Don't be mean, its not the Zergs fault that they get PTSD everytime they gaet attacked before 90 drones :p
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At least everyone watching the game should be happy with the Hunter Seeker buff - I know I'll enjoy the split-second micro that'll be necessary to save your targeted units. :D
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On August 25 2011 23:13 lorkac wrote:
Oh no.... has goody seen this patch yet ;_;
Well GoOdy will be really pissed. It seems that every patch makes mech more and more unplayable.
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More mothership please :D
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On August 25 2011 23:05 Atrimex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:17 Doz wrote:
In case this hasn't been answered yet, the reason for the barracks change is due to the 11/11 rax and 12/14 rax builds in tvz.
As much as a I feel a zerg should be able to be punished for expanding before building any combat units, this change should decrease slightly the amount of pressure a terran can put on in the first 4 minutes But now zerg can macro up without any disturbance. Terra will loose the early midgame advantage and dont get any late game buff for it.
This is just a strawman. The "disturbance" is very slighly adjusted. It makes the pressure come a tiny bit later. It's still very viable and strong.
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why bother getting BF for hellion drops now? Regular hellion damage w/o BF takes 3 shots to killa worker..
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I agree with everything, BUT the BLINK NERF. WTH? No Koreans complain about it, no foreign zergs, no foreign terrans complain about it. Fix it for what, for PvP? Why bother fix a mirror matchup anyway, PvP is fine the way it is just like ZvZ in Broodwar. Blink nerf only nerfs protoss in vP and vZ.
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On August 25 2011 23:25 CurrrBell wrote:
Man.... Zergs are going to start crying again now that Infestors don't kill everything immediately. I also would've liked to have seen a better buff for the Ultralisk than less build time. All in all, though, great patch. It sounds like they were listening to that State of the Game episode lol.
Hopefully this will force me to go to tier 3 faster, because infestors essentially are going to become simply support. Army comp becomes even more important because your damage per gas spent is lower. Gas is now even more valuable. I'm actually fine with it against P, it's versus terran that I'm worried about it. They were the backbone to surviving the midgame and I'm going to have to get better to survive now. Just less room for error versus T. Sigh.
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Finally a patch that doesn't nerf protoss to high hell...
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Was wondering when blue flame was going to be fixed and Terran's my primary race lol
looking forward to the patch ^_^
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Loving this patch. Motherships as semi-viable, Immortals as genuinely good units, Protoss with drop capabilities, better Zerg scouting and less broken Infestors, nerfed BFH. Love it.
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wow now actually combat shield is useless in marine vs helion fights O.o Will take 3 shots to kill a marine with or without combat shield
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poor goody =( i think no one else will be as much nerfed as him with this patch. he used to hellion drop quite damn often, which was also essential because meching is hard and should be even harder now!
still.... somewhat a good change. i do specially like the ultralisk change, although i am not quite sure if it will make them more useful.
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On August 25 2011 23:24 Keyz1 wrote:
4 - Banelings can no longer be 2 shotted.
Why does everyone think Banes are light?
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EPT
