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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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seefour
United Kingdom107 Posts
Barracks nerf - ??????????????? i mean wtf Blue flame hellion nerf - ok fair enough now tvt goes back to normal but what role will hellions play now? All the zerg changes are actually really good  Protoss changes are just totally random and wont achieve anything ( apart from warp prism buff thats sexy(still slow)). | ||
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s3183529
Australia707 Posts
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Buzzo
58 Posts
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. That's ok, add some advantage to the the defender. PROTOSS Immortal Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Immortal is good against few army compositions (mass stalkers, mass roaches), i don't think a range buff will change the game. Maybe is more related to PvP. We will see. Mothership Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online. I don't think we will see more motherships in late game. This unit is still vulnerable to ghosts and neural parasite, take forever to build and is in a borderline useless and very expensive tech tree (fleet beacon) Stalker Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. I don't see any reason to this nerf. Blink timing push is far from imba even in PvZ. Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100. Protoss have still nothing to drop. TERRAN Barracks Build time increased from 60 to 65. Is for early marine pressure in TvZ. I think it's ok. Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Hellion were a bit too good for his cost. I think it's ok. Raven Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Under used ability. Is ok to buff. ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). The ability to chain fungal to death groups of: vikings, void ray, phoenix, banshee, mutalisk totally deny any usage of these units, this very unique feature is still in the game. Not a good nerf imho. Overseer Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Ok it was overpriced. Ultralisk Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Not needed at all. In the end: These changes don't affect the 1-1-1. Major nerf to the 7 gate blink push in PvZ. Is a zerg patch imho. | ||
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TriZen
England219 Posts
I don't agree with the increase in contaminate, it was hardly used. The rest of the upgrades are good, 10 seconds later for 2 rax to come? Happy times. Wheres the bunker change? | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:58 s3183529 wrote: Anyway, don't understand the blink research time nerf at all. I don't see anyone complaining about blink, at all. Maybe Idra, Jk  Yeah the Blink change is the only thing I don't understand. Blink rush has not been a big issue on any matchup IMO | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
Wheres the bunker change? As someone previously said, 5 second barracks nerf = 5 second first bunker nerf | ||
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Jurassic
Hungary79 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:52 LilClinkin wrote: Hellion nerf is woeful, why are so many people complaining about BFH? Compare to bw, you had reavers, storm drops, lurker spines, all of which decimated worker lines at all stages of the game. With a little bit of sim-city and map awareness, BFH carnage on workers is largely negated. I can just imagine the rage of players in sc2 if the lurker were present. "Zerg has a unit which can be invisible and 2-shot workers with a range twice as long as the hellion attack? NERF THAT **** ASAP!!!" You forget that those units cost a lot more than hellions, and also they are harder to get into the mineral line. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:13 Numy wrote: What... speed for ovies is still good regardless of overseer cost. Without speed you won't save overseers so it's still good to sac overlords instead. Drops are good even if they not doom drop or banes. You want to get speed for better over pooping. Only thing that is different is now you can use overseers to scout certain timings for cheaper Of course later in the game you will get speed, but early in the game for scouting purposes it is not really a smart choice unless you also plan to do bling drops (as I said). Before you could choose to spend same amount of gas to scout with overseer or fast overlords but fast overlord will now always be a subpar choice. | ||
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ClueLessx3
Australia53 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:53 Moochlol wrote: No infact you go 1 gate robo, nexus, gate gate twilight, and then as many gates as u can afford usually 1 or 2 more. you can have an archon or so a good amount of zealot 4 HT some stalker and an immortal. I dont see the problem. So how do you get HT with just Twilight council? Besides i'm assuming you want storms unlocked for HT as well, that's another 110 sec to research + warping waiting time since KA was removed. We just don't have enough time to get all that while maintaining a healthy army. I think he is trolling (or just trying to get attention) so i'm going to stop feeding him, after this post. | ||
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Noobcube88
United States7 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:51 wo1fwood wrote: Mentioned a little earlier in the thread, but in ZvZ, infestors no longer one shot lings Infestors never did one shot lings | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:53 Moochlol wrote: No infact you go 1 gate robo, nexus, gate gate twilight, and then as many gates as u can afford usually 1 or 2 more. you can have an archon or so a good amount of zealot 4 HT some stalker and an immortal. I dont see the problem. Uh, you said to use storm. So you expect us to 1 gate robo expand (you put down nexus on 36 food but I'm not sure when that is in-game time, maybe around 6:30?), into two more gates and a twilight council (50 seconds to build), then more gates (delaying the templar archives further), then the templar archive (50 seconds to build), research storm (120 seconds), and the templar to gather energy to stop a push that comes at 9:30? Also, twilight council is 100 gas, archives is 200, storm is 200, templars are 150 each. An archon is 300 gas. Stalkers are 50 each. Immortal is 100. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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buldermar
Denmark102 Posts
Immortal range helps against 1/1/1 ai. (obv as a result of recent tournamentgames) Mothership being build isn't announched with a cute little lagspike that everyone in the game experiences. Zergs can more easily defend against 3/4gate blinkstalker AI's. Warp Prism play is more viable. (some players have experimented with ht's in prism's to avoid feedback and emp in battles, somewhat similar to reavers in sc1. Blizzard seems to like that concept, as it makes battles more micro intensive and, more importantly, adds to the advantage gained from having good micro) Terran's bio rushes against any race really are now slightly less viable. This is a seemingly small, yet important chance. Terran has a nice variaty of onebase all-ins to do and this change is probably meant to make multi-rax openings slightly less economical (scv's doesn't mine while building), and slightly less viable in terms of units out at a given point in time. Hellions has been used a lot recently in pretty much all matchups, and this seems to be a way of nerfing them without changing openings too much. From a zerg players perspective, it means that a one base blueflame hellion opening is slightly less dangerous, which adds flexibility to zerg counters as less resources has to be invested into preparation and defence. Seeker missiles are more viable. This also seems to come in response to seeker missile recently being used a lot in tournaments. This in particular affects long TvT games as seeker missiles will have higher speed than vikings, making them a much more viable counter to lategame heavy air play. Infestors damage is being nerfed, which changes the dynamics of all matches at least a bit. On the other hand, utralisk buildtime has been decreased, making ultralisks a much more potent option lategame, as much of the reasoning behind not using them is the fact that they take long to build. It's difficult to determine whether the two changes are buffing or nerfing zerg in each individual matchup, but perhaps more importantly it's adding more diversity and better dynamics to all of the zerg matchups. Zergs also get a bit of an easier time defending against dt rushes as overseers are less gas costy. The contaminate energy increasement seems good regarding zvz's where it can play a huge role as contaminate can hurt zerg's production of 'any' unit by just contaminating one building (the hatchery). Contaminate isn't really used consistently in any other matchups except on random occasions where it isn't a part of the overall strategy or plan (for instance if you made an overseer to defend dt's and now that you have it you might as well use it). Of the other changes, I think the changes regarding neural parasite are most significant. In particular the attack upgrades being retained by units controlled by neural parasite could affect ZvP as neural parasiting collosus is a common mid/lategame strat. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10966 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:52 LilClinkin wrote: Hellion nerf is woeful, why are so many people complaining about BFH? Compare to bw, you had reavers, storm drops, lurker spines, all of which decimated worker lines at all stages of the game. With a little bit of sim-city and map awareness, BFH carnage on workers is largely negated. I can just imagine the rage of players in sc2 if the lurker were present. "Zerg has a unit which can be invisible and 2-shot workers with a range twice as long as the hellion attack? NERF THAT **** ASAP!!!" AHM..... The Reaver Was fucking expensive and basically not useable whiteout a Shuttle (which did nothing expect transporting) a 2 Reaver drop, with slow shuttles, cost you 600/200 (whiteout Buildings/Tech) and when killed was a HUGE loss.. And you probably would like to have shuttlespeed and ideally scarab damage upgraded. He came from a building that produced only shuttles (and with an extra building observers) and needed also extra building. Oh, the Shuttle did actually nothing more than "shuttle" units... Oh, there were also Terrors that could kill that thing in a second when you did not watch for a sec. The Hellion Is a friggin cheap mineral sink thats blazing fast. He does not need a dropship to work (but it helps) and the Dropship can heal Biounits. Is pretty early in the standard Techtree that you want in basically every game except when your cheesing heavy. | ||
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p T r
United States94 Posts
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On August 25 2011 23:02 phodacbiet wrote: Infestors never did one shot lings yes, corrected. where the hell is my brain this morning?! | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:17 Doz wrote: In case this hasn't been answered yet, the reason for the barracks change is due to the 11/11 rax and 12/14 rax builds in tvz. As much as a I feel a zerg should be able to be punished for expanding before building any combat units, this change should decrease slightly the amount of pressure a terran can put on in the first 4 minutes But now zerg can macro up without any disturbance. Terra will loose the early midgame advantage and dont get any late game buff for it. | ||
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eourcs
United States459 Posts
Vision: Good change, will help with 2 queen blocks and PvP Mothership: Motherships are actually quite decent lategame, not a big change overall Warpprism: Same thing with motherships, they've always been pretty good, gives protoss more of an incentive to use them Barracks: Don't like this change. Delays everything the terran makes. 11/11 was hard but no where near impossible. I heard Namchir has been doing 9/9 but that sounds horrible to me anyways. Hellions: Apparently seems to make blue-flame as an upgrade kinda useless Raven: Good start, but they still cost 125 energy and 200 gas per raven. Might change lategame mass air TvT a little bit, but that's about it. I would like if they made seeker 100 energy. Fungal: Good change, might need more. Overseer: Makes sense. Ultralisk: Cool. | ||
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Moochlol
United States456 Posts
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