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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 22:05 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 21:50 TimeSpiral wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I actually did not think the OP was legit, until I saw the battle.net link. Ha. This is a pretty flailing patch, actually. General ReactionI remember watching some pro matches a few weeks ago with my brother, and we were seeing a lot of helion plays getting used. It was crazy! I leaned over and said, "Damn. Helions are going to get nerfed soon ..."+ Show Spoiler [terran Pro eyes only] +When you come up with new plays, can you at least purposefully throw a few games so the whole world doesn't immediately cry imba? Seriously. It's to the point now where Terran plays are literally nerfed weeks after their latest tournament displays. I really never expected to see another Terran buff, but the HSM is actually really interesting. We'll have to see what happens. It's a weird spell right now in that it is really strong, but never used, because it never works. So now that it will work in some cases, and is still strong, people might build more Ravens! The barracks got nerfed again, which is lol, but at least it's not a major nerf. It slows down every Terran build in the game, but not by much. I think this is basically an anti-2rax vs. Zerg nerf. OpergI'm glad blizzard has realized something needs to change about the Infestor. Let's see if this sticks. My money is that this nerf is actually changed into a buff by the time it goes live. I got $5 on the table for anyone who wants to take that bet ;P PrawdhussNaturally I abhor the idea of making Prawdhuss stronger, but I think the Immortal change is actually pretty good. It's an expensive unit, and pretty critical in holding some of Terran's early game timings. The Blink timing might help defend the very powerful Blink rushes. Operg? really?! If you are gonna be like that at least go for the obvious EZerg >_<
Wow, I never considered that! But the goal is to make it sound ridiculous at the same time, an EZerg just sounds like e-Zerg, which is not nearly as ludicrous as Operg. Good suggestion though.
On August 25 2011 22:15 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 21:50 TimeSpiral wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I actually did not think the OP was legit, until I saw the battle.net link. Ha. This is a pretty flailing patch, actually. General ReactionI remember watching some pro matches a few weeks ago with my brother, and we were seeing a lot of helion plays getting used. It was crazy! I leaned over and said, "Damn. Helions are going to get nerfed soon ..."+ Show Spoiler [terran Pro eyes only] +When you come up with new plays, can you at least purposefully throw a few games so the whole world doesn't immediately cry imba? Seriously. It's to the point now where Terran plays are literally nerfed weeks after their latest tournament displays. I really never expected to see another Terran buff, but the HSM is actually really interesting. We'll have to see what happens. It's a weird spell right now in that it is really strong, but never used, because it never works. So now that it will work in some cases, and is still strong, people might build more Ravens! The barracks got nerfed again, which is lol, but at least it's not a major nerf. It slows down every Terran build in the game, but not by much. I think this is basically an anti-2rax vs. Zerg nerf. OpergI'm glad blizzard has realized something needs to change about the Infestor. Let's see if this sticks. My money is that this nerf is actually changed into a buff by the time it goes live. I got $5 on the table for anyone who wants to take that bet ;P PrawdhussNaturally I abhor the idea of making Prawdhuss stronger, but I think the Immortal change is actually pretty good. It's an expensive unit, and pretty critical in holding some of Terran's early game timings. The Blink timing might help defend the very powerful Blink rushes. I find your obvious Terran bias disturbing. Also, I'll pick up that bet! Do you have a steam account? Ill gift you a 5 dollar game if you win, you gift me a 5 dollar game if I win. To make it fun, the winner gets no input regarding what the 5 dollar game will be. Sound good?
The jig is up! You got me ... Why is it so shocking when one is biased towards the race they play? It's pretty clear they will have the most intimate understanding of their own race and how those changes will affect them from that perspective. Besides, I thought I was pretty fair with my analysis.
I'll recap:
(1) Giving +1 range to a base 5 range unit is a huge buff. Good for Prawhduss.
(2) Nerfing Blink tech time by 30 seconds (20 or so real life seconds) is a pretty big deal for rush players, otherwise, not a huge deal.
(3) Nerfing every Terran BO by 5 seconds, also not a big deal. This will only really affect super early rax plays, like 2rax versus Zerg.
(4) Nerfing blue flame's damage buff by 50% is a huge nerf. Really, we're paying 150/150 and using 110 seconds of factory tech time to get +5 versus light units? Rofl.
(5) HSM will actually get used now. There is no way to know how this will play out. Now that it can actually hit units we will get to see. This buff may prove to be wildly OP. I'm suspecting this change will not make it through PTR in its current incarnation.
(6) This Fungal Growth nerf is just for ZvZ. FG no longer kills lings in one shot. This is a great change. Removing 6 dmg from its versus Armor, not a huge deal, but still a significant nerf (-15% ish).
(7) Overseer cost buff is actually a huge deal. Contaminate nerf is obvious if you're going to make the Overseer virtually free (like the observer).
(8) Ultras now build fast. Expect to see a lot more Ultra play in all matchups. I think this change is good for Zerg.
The putrid, obvious, writhing Terran bias ...
Is there anything really unreasonable in my analysis? Is the Terran bias that sickening, or is it my colorful ranting and trolling that grates on the souls of the Zergs and Prawdhusses of TL?
The Bet
I love that idea! I don't have a stream account. I'm a pathetic Terran who needs to l2p, but I love a good bet! Let's do it. We'll have ourselves a lil' showmatch.
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On August 25 2011 22:38 Moochlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 25 2011 22:32 Moochlol wrote:
As far as 1/1/1. Only morons belive that is that OP. 1 gate Robo, allows you to confirm that build very quickly, which in turn allows you to rush to HT. 4 storms+feedback RAPE that garbage. Uh no, that's just not possible, sorry. Oh really explain why, because I have seen that build get raped time and time again. Liquid tyler suggested 1 gate robo, and it works well. Are you better than liquid tyler? Explain why it doesnt work.
There's a thread on page 1 with about 2500 replies discussing the build that would explain things for you. You should probably refrain from calling people who have infinitely more knowledge about this game than you morons too(Alicia & MVP to name two).
Let's not turn this thread into a 1/1/1 balance discussion.
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On August 25 2011 22:38 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:37 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with blue flame, but the reason behind the barracks build time is not obvious to me. 11/11 or they just wanted to generally slow down Terran a touch are the only things that it could be really. Tiny nerf regardless so w/e.
I don't think its a tiny nerf. First they completely took Terrans ability to cheese hard in earlygame (barracks before supply) and now they are taking away even more time when Terran found a solution with 11/11 which was not imbalanced but hard to stop) Also the preigniter still being 150/150 is a bit harsh now, its just not worth it, but I like the change, since I prefer to play Bio and thats a lot easier now.
Edit: I actually think Zerg will now use ultras instead of Broodlords against Terran, because they are damn powerful paired with infestors, DIMAGA will be happy.
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On August 25 2011 22:37 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with blue flame, but the reason behind the barracks build time is not obvious to me.
My impression is that they're going for a very small general early/midgame nerf with this. It basically adds 5 seconds to every Terran build without changing any units, so lategame Terran won't be affected in any serious way.
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Seeker missile 2.953 speed vs Viking 2.75 air speed. Looks like people are going to have to learn how to split if they want to have air control in tvt.
If they had given hydra's back their 10 more health from the beta, this would probably end up being the last balance change this game would need before hots.
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As a protoss player I'm disappointed Carriers are STILL unfeasible. They wanted BC's used more so they buffed em. They even said that in patch notes that BC saw too little action so here some speed love. BC's were still used 100x more than Carriers but i let it slide hoping they'd bump Carriers in the next patch but it never came. And now we got Ultra's another lessor used unit but still used 1000x more than Carrier getting a usefulness buff while Carrier remains on the back shelf.
HT's - so so slow Which he got a little love after KA removed.
5 secs will do nothing about 1/1/1 and neither will immortal. 1/1/1 is about exploiting Protoss lack of AoE and negating protoss' early game sentry crutch. Nothing will change on Korean pro scene unless some miraculous strategy comes...
Seems like Blizzard is skirting the main units/issue for little bitty stuff with protoss although WP buff is HUGE. Can't wait.
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Yea actually it is, the standard timing is 10 minutes for the terran to attack, indeed you can have an expansion of your own, and shortly after the attack storm comes online. I don't know if your under the impression that its a 1 base play or not. But the timings indeed do work out. You have to sack your nexus but it has done its job, because you have mined a FUCKLOAD of minerals and gas. break out with immortal or storm snipes//feed back from the high ground. Have you heard of chrono, when are u getting hit by 1 1 1?
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On August 25 2011 22:21 Spacedude wrote:
I fear that Blizzard might be rushing balance changes out before enough time has passed and the overall picture is more clear. They say the game is still quite 'soft' so I don't know how much I like them messing with the game. Everbody seem to have their own holy version of what needs to be done with the game, but let's hope Blizzard's decisions are solid, as solid as they can be in a dynamic game, that is. Each new patch will serve to undermind the solidity of game and the game will then have to 'earn' it again over time, but with HOTS coming out it doesn't matter much, I guess.
Well, I can´t blame them. Have you seen how whiny the community has been?
Its like:
*Balance topic*
"Ummm, guys lets wait until the metagame evolves blah blah..."
"NO ITS BROKEN, PROS HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING! ITS UNSTOPPABLE, ITS KILLING E SPORTS! GAME IS BROKEN, IT KILLED MY GRANDMA! BLIZZARD NEEDS TO PATCH THIS TO SAVE DROWNING PUPPIES"
I am of course exaggerating, but lets be serious for a moment here. Blizzard is under a lot of pressure from paying customers at times, and while I don't agree with caving in to the whining without at least waiting for a solution to be developed, what can we do?
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Btw I'm not sure how many zergs noticed that drones attack got a "buff" in the sense that they can now attack probes trying to deny an expo much easier. I remember there was a thread about that where the drone stops before its attack and it doesn't hit if the probe keeps moving.
Also people this is a PTR. If the hellion nerf/other nerf you dislike is too much, they'll change it.
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On August 25 2011 22:41 TimeSpiral wrote:
(4) Nerfing blue flame's damage buff by 50% is a huge nerf. Really, we're paying 150/150 and using 110 seconds of factory tech time to get +5 versus light units? Rofl.
It's a big nerf yes, but anything less than that wouldn't have been a nerf at all since 2 hellions would still 1-shot groups of probes & drones, which I would imagine is the intended purpose of the nerf.
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On August 25 2011 22:38 Moochlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 25 2011 22:32 Moochlol wrote:
As far as 1/1/1. Only morons belive that is that OP. 1 gate Robo, allows you to confirm that build very quickly, which in turn allows you to rush to HT. 4 storms+feedback RAPE that garbage. Uh no, that's just not possible, sorry. Oh really explain why, because I have seen that build get raped time and time again. Liquid tyler suggested 1 gate robo, and it works well. Are you better than liquid tyler? Explain why it doesnt work.
So many units so little time to prepare and tech up, while still have maintaining a sizable army is quite impossible to do.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I don't understand all the people who don't "get" the 5-second barracks increase. It's pretty well-known that Terrans are the strongest early-game race. A slight nerf to this seems not too complex to understand?
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I dont think the 2 rax was that strong anymore in tvz, except for close positions. Which makes me feel blizzard tries to balance the game for their own ladder maps. I dont know if I agree with that since all those close posi shenanigans have already been removed from tournaments.
Apart from that the changes seem pretty reasonable, especially the protoss buffs. I wonder how much of a difference the infestor nerf will really make in that broodlord infestor zvt lategame composition.
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So how exactly does the FG nerf work?
I know a lot of people are saying "LOL SEE INFESTOR OP ROFL" but according to a lot of people's analysis, the infestor still kills most units in the same shots (particularly Protoss units).
What is the reason behind the FG nerf? It seems they didn't think (and I agree) it was OP in ZvP, but I imagine this affects ZvT? In which case, infestors were never a problem in that match-up - yes, it's annoying to get your marines fungalled, but good Zerg's didn't rely on infestors in that match-up but still used ling/bane/muta.
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great patch overall, the nerf on barrack timing will change a lot the early game i think
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On August 25 2011 22:44 DminusTerran wrote:
Seeker missile 2.953 speed vs Viking 2.75 air speed. Looks like people are going to have to learn how to split if they want to have air control in tvt.
Hmm... well, now...
David some do it T>T
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So Fungal wont hurt light units as much but does more to armored? I hope I read that right. Overall, cant complain with this patch.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On August 25 2011 22:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:
Edit: I actually think Zerg will now use ultras instead of Broodlords against Terran, because they are damn powerful paired with infestors, DIMAGA will be happy.
I think it just opens a new tech patch for Zerg as opposed to "well its late game, guess its broodlord time"
I do like that they're adding, as Day9 once said, "wiggle room to an area that had no wiggle room"
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Just wonder if this will help fix 111?
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I think the barracks build time is actually just a hidden attempt to change the bunker. I AM ON TO YOU BLIZZARD!
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EPT
