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On July 15 2011 01:14 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:08 NiNi wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:
My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
I totally agree ... but there is a huge problem about it. A lot of christians don't respect atheists. Most don't behave in a obsiously disrespectful way but rather hidden (and most don't even do it on purpose). Let me give you some examples: - Prayers in schools - faith schools (with public funding / replacing public schools) - words like 'god' on official items like the banknotes, coins, national anthems - public funding for religion - Special rights for christian employers (i.e. to only employ christians) - christian messages on public tv - opposing gay marriage - praying in official ceremonies - banning certain movies - using their lobby to promote self censorship and so on and so on.... Just imagine if atheists would do the same thing i.e. by praying to the flying spaghetti monster in schools, putting the flying spaghetti monster on coins, monuments, in the national anthem, opposing and banning marriages between men and women, not employing any christians etc... Most people don't notice such behavior because they are used to it. But nontheless it's shameful. [EDIT] And those are just things that happen in western countries like the usa, germany, great britain, spain etc. I don't wanna image what happens in uganda, paraguay or peru... That's pretty much all politics and I feel like Christians shouldn't obsess over politics like that. Me personally, I really can't be bothered to worry about the stuff you just listed. I've never in my life once had someone come up to me personally and complain about my belief so I'm going to assume that I am employing a decent enough of respect and courtesy to other people including atheists.
Since we are already on this, i guess i will join in.
The premises we are on would be: (i believe these are the commonly accepted terms of Christianity)
- God is omnipotent (he is capable of about anything)
- God is benevolent (he would prefer saving me to not doing so)
- If i do not believe in him/doubt him, tough luck for all eternity
This is nothing nobody already know about, but i just thought i would like some explanation from a true Christian, since like you said many of them proclaimed to be God's men but do not live the way they should.
Me, being the flawed human being that i am, cant believe in Him due to what i perceive as lack of evidence, even after spending 4 years in Christian schools (2 years in a Methodist school, another 2 in a Catholic school). This likely mean that i will be spending the next eternity screaming in pain. What then prevent him from saving me, talk to me in my dreams, whisper to my conscience, or hell, just manifest in front of my face and tell me straight up. Also, why is he always so mysterious, so intangible? One public appearance and he would likely save millions, if not billions of those children that he so loved from eternal suffering. What would be more important than eternal time from that many people?
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Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:06 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 01:04 Dreis1337 wrote:And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell. In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random. They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck". Christians believe that God is a good and loving God so they trust that he will take care of those without the privilege of hearing the gospel. however, no one can know for sure because it's divine choice.
So in my example, if a man killed a 1000 people because he believe it was moral, God would just let it slide? He does NOT know of the Bible or Jesus, so he has no "real" grasp of the "correct" morals, right? Afterall isn't that the point of the Bible?
And if indeed he should just "know" that killing is wrong, then I extend the example to any and all of the sins, what happens then? If you apply the same logic, that he should "know" what is right or wrong, then there is NO point in the Bible at all.
And why don't I get the same luxury? I think the Bible is unbelievable, so I should be let off too, right? As long as I'm moral in the same respect, I should therefore get into heaven.
Even further, why doesn't God just reveal himself in the Americas too? He is omnipotent afterall. Maybe he did and no one believed? Well then Jesus must have been a stroke of luck and that just goes to show that belief is indeed random (if God himself finds it hard to convince people), in which case your fate is random, which is my first point!
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Why must any discussion about religion turn into a debate? It is futile. Neither side will convince the other.
Can't we all just respect each others beliefs and use this thread as it was originally intended?
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On July 15 2011 01:26 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:22 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:20 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:11 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:07 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:00 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 00:59 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:54 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point. I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion. On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
[quote]
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would. Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago? And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Which logical fallacy is this? I forget. Edit: No true Scotsman logical fallacy logical fallacy or not, thats the only way to put it because there are alot of self-proclaimed Christians who don't live the way they preach On July 15 2011 01:02 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:59 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:54 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point. I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion. On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
[quote]
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would. Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago? And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Telling people that they will burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe in the same thing you do is not a Christian thing to do. It's arrogant and most importantly 'not of love'. Loving others is the most important commandment in the Christian religion. So please, those are just stereotypes. I don't know what church you attend but the majority of Christians believe if you reject Jesus Christ you will burn in hell. also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I do believe that. doesn't mean I go out and tell someone they're gonna go to hell and burn in eternity forever? That's not gonna get anyone listening to you with that approach. Also, it is wrong in the first place to tell someone they are going to hell because the ultimate decision lies with God. Basically those people are doing 'backseat moderating' which their God will definitely not be happy with. Irony. You just said the ultimate decision lies with God, implying they should not speak on his behalf, then you say "which God will definitely not be happy with" if they don't know who's going to hell how do you know he won't be happy? Because it says in the Bible? (which is the core of the Christian faith) there is a bunch of stuff saying not to judge others and self-examine ones self as God has the ultimate call. On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote:
Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc? The belief that many Christians have is that the world is a fallen world which Satan rules over. Because of that, there are flaws in a once perfect world made by God. now if I have to explain why Satan "rules" over the earth (incoming but why?/ isn't god all powerful and rules over everything???) it would go on and on so if you want to find out alot of your questions on your own alot of your answers are on google. ( I know, I'm lazy) On July 15 2011 01:13 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:10 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:02 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:55 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:53 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:47 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
There are various things in the Bible that are simply incorrect, there's no evidence to support the story of noah's ark for example, Jesus' existence is questionable, we know the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Inc "it was all a metaphor lolz" lol you have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other atheists. those are just 'typical' objections many atheists use. just use google and you'll see how much support there is. You have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other theists. Those are 'typical' arguments many theists use. just use google and you'll see how stupid it is. Also 2 posts above me. ... are you just saying that for the sake of mimicking because I highly doubt that On July 15 2011 00:55 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 00:51 Thorakh wrote:Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. Ah, argument ad populum. The second worst of them all right behind ad hoc. If it cannot be proven or disproven the only logical stance to take is agnostic (or 'weak' atheism if you really want) as it would be pointless to believe or disbelieve. Also, watch this video: + Show Spoiler + I don't think it was an ad populum. He was just saying that Calling Christians stupid = Calling a third of the world stupid. yes, exactly. I was simply demonstrating how your response had absolutely no depth and didn't rebut anything. Just said "lolol heard it a million times USE GOOGLE BRO" sorry for my lack of effort but I am just way too lazy to research for you lol On July 15 2011 01:06 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 01:04 Dreis1337 wrote:And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell. In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random. They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck". Christians believe that God is a good and loving God so they trust that he will take care of those without the privilege of hearing the gospel. however, no one can know for sure because it's divine choice. Well I'm sorry my immortal soul that apparently exists is of such little significance that you won't even bother to do a google search. Almost makes me feel like you don't actually believe in it...but hey what do I know. lol sorry but both of us know you're not going to be converted over a tiny discussion on a starcraft forum i just wanted to give a little insight from a christian's point of view If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent. -_-;; thats another common question "why doesn't god just stop satan if he has the power to do so at any time" it's an issue with sovereignty and having humankind realize the need for divine guidance from God oddly enough, without Satan (author of temptation) we all would be mindless robots praising God 24/7 which it says in the Bible, that God did not want.
In that situation he's still malevolent. Especially the part where he's fine with "the author of temptation" leading me to reject Jesus Christ and supposedly burn in hell for eternity.
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On July 15 2011 01:26 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:22 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:20 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:11 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:07 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:00 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 00:59 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:54 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point. I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion. On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
[quote]
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would. Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago? And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Which logical fallacy is this? I forget. Edit: No true Scotsman logical fallacy logical fallacy or not, thats the only way to put it because there are alot of self-proclaimed Christians who don't live the way they preach On July 15 2011 01:02 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:59 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:54 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point. I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion. On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
[quote]
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would. Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago? And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Telling people that they will burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe in the same thing you do is not a Christian thing to do. It's arrogant and most importantly 'not of love'. Loving others is the most important commandment in the Christian religion. So please, those are just stereotypes. I don't know what church you attend but the majority of Christians believe if you reject Jesus Christ you will burn in hell. also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I do believe that. doesn't mean I go out and tell someone they're gonna go to hell and burn in eternity forever? That's not gonna get anyone listening to you with that approach. Also, it is wrong in the first place to tell someone they are going to hell because the ultimate decision lies with God. Basically those people are doing 'backseat moderating' which their God will definitely not be happy with. Irony. You just said the ultimate decision lies with God, implying they should not speak on his behalf, then you say "which God will definitely not be happy with" if they don't know who's going to hell how do you know he won't be happy? Because it says in the Bible? (which is the core of the Christian faith) there is a bunch of stuff saying not to judge others and self-examine ones self as God has the ultimate call. On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote:
Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc? The belief that many Christians have is that the world is a fallen world which Satan rules over. Because of that, there are flaws in a once perfect world made by God. now if I have to explain why Satan "rules" over the earth (incoming but why?/ isn't god all powerful and rules over everything???) it would go on and on so if you want to find out alot of your questions on your own alot of your answers are on google. ( I know, I'm lazy) On July 15 2011 01:13 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:10 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 01:02 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:55 Olinim wrote:On July 15 2011 00:53 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 00:47 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
There are various things in the Bible that are simply incorrect, there's no evidence to support the story of noah's ark for example, Jesus' existence is questionable, we know the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Inc "it was all a metaphor lolz" lol you have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other atheists. those are just 'typical' objections many atheists use. just use google and you'll see how much support there is. You have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other theists. Those are 'typical' arguments many theists use. just use google and you'll see how stupid it is. Also 2 posts above me. ... are you just saying that for the sake of mimicking because I highly doubt that On July 15 2011 00:55 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 00:51 Thorakh wrote:Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. Ah, argument ad populum. The second worst of them all right behind ad hoc. If it cannot be proven or disproven the only logical stance to take is agnostic (or 'weak' atheism if you really want) as it would be pointless to believe or disbelieve. Also, watch this video: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU I don't think it was an ad populum. He was just saying that Calling Christians stupid = Calling a third of the world stupid. yes, exactly. I was simply demonstrating how your response had absolutely no depth and didn't rebut anything. Just said "lolol heard it a million times USE GOOGLE BRO" sorry for my lack of effort but I am just way too lazy to research for you lol On July 15 2011 01:06 Djzapz wrote:On July 15 2011 01:04 Dreis1337 wrote:And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof. Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell. In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random. They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck". Christians believe that God is a good and loving God so they trust that he will take care of those without the privilege of hearing the gospel. however, no one can know for sure because it's divine choice. Well I'm sorry my immortal soul that apparently exists is of such little significance that you won't even bother to do a google search. Almost makes me feel like you don't actually believe in it...but hey what do I know. lol sorry but both of us know you're not going to be converted over a tiny discussion on a starcraft forum i just wanted to give a little insight from a christian's point of view If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent. -_-;; thats another common question "why doesn't god just stop satan if he has the power to do so at any time" it's an issue with sovereignty and having humankind realize the need for divine guidance from God oddly enough, without Satan (author of temptation) we all would be mindless robots praising God 24/7 which it says in the Bible, that God did not want.
If god did not want us to mindlessly praise him 24/7 how come anyone who doesn't do that goes to hell? Doesn't even make sense. If he truely exists, I don't know what to think about him. He makes people suffer all the time, for what? You could say for lessons but there are people who suffer from birth to death.
Also, why should a decision made by me in my ~80 years of life impact all of eternity? He forced me to make a decision, then when he disagrees, sends me to hell for eternity. I don't believe a god would do this, therefor I am atheist.
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On July 15 2011 01:33 DoomsVille wrote:
Why must any discussion about religion turn into a debate? It is futile. Neither side will convince the other.
Can't we all just respect each others beliefs and use this thread as it was originally intended?
That, or one can actually enjoy the debate/discussion and hopefully even learn something new in the process. I hold no malice when i argue against Christianity (or any other religion for that matter). I, however, dont believe any of that, and have many well thought out reasons as to why i think that way. I would like to hear the opinion of the opposite side too 
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How did this thread derail from Deism to the Christian God.....?
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On July 15 2011 01:33 DoomsVille wrote:
Why must any discussion about religion turn into a debate? It is futile. Neither side will convince the other.
Can't we all just respect each others beliefs and use this thread as it was originally intended? If I can even convince only one person in my entire life, it has been worth it as the world would be a step closer to embrace critical thinking and logic.
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On July 15 2011 01:38 FindMeInKenya wrote:
How did this thread derail from Deism to the Christian God.....?
Because of the Christian guy that told everyone we would burn in hell and that pornography is the worst thing in the world.
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To be honest, if anyone thought creating a thread about deism wouldn't end in a debate (especially with a christian god) they are crazy.
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this OP is talking about is just another dumb newstarted religion.. like any other today..
:/
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On July 15 2011 00:50 ZXRP wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:16 gentile wrote:
as a philosophy student all your wikipedia "knowledge" makes me close to actually vomiting..so does the Christianity and any other religions some people have created and still create in order to give their life anything that the common human beeing refers to as a sense. This goes for any Scientific reasoning aswell, for it is always, in the core, at the start, to believe in something, to put something at the start of argument, which cannot be proven. Any mathematical axioms for example are honestly the same as believing in something like a divine god. In fact it's even worse than this. Not only does one need to come up with axioms from which to argue, one needs to accept a priori that reason is, well, reasonable. That one can arrive at truth via its application. This is due to the unfortunate fact that one cannot prove that reason is reasonable without using reason!
I've always loved this argument, that we can never prove reason is reasonable. Unfortunately, the argument is self-terminating; if reason is unreasonable, we can't reason anything and we're doomed. The argument defeats itself, since if we reason the reason is faulty then the argument is debunk. For practical purposes, we need to abandon this argument as anything but an example of the fallibility of reason.
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Why do people keep making threads like this, for fucks sake...
Sigh, well while it's still open and not a shitstorm I'll give my own view. I believe in one God and I believe he made everything. I do not believe that hell is a fiery pit, God is far too loving to do that to his own children. Instead, I believe how Pope John Paul II describes it: "the Bible uses 'a symbolic language', which 'must be correctly interpreted … Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.'" Hell is merely the absence of God's love, which only happens when you deny he exists right in front of his face. Therefore if you die and you go to the gates of Heaven and stare God in the face, only an unreasonable person will still deny his existence. If you're reasonable, you have nothing to worry about.
As a religious person I understand my gospel, but I'll admit that really none of it matters. The only thing that matters, the only thing people should strive to do, is mimicing God's unlimited amount of love. If everyone in the world could love their brothers and sister so much that you could walk up to your biggest enemy and give them a hug, everything else would work itself out. That love is truly the only thing that matters.
So please, when you read the responses in this thread and think about how people have different opinions and beliefs than you, don't jump to a "your beliefs are retarded" statement. Don't go to "if you seriously believe that then you're a moron." Understand that everyone is your brother or your sister and only loving them for who they are, for better or for worse, can make this world a better place.
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On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote:
Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc?
I'm more of an agnostic so I'm probably not the best person to answer your question... That said, if you read the Old Testament, God is a pretty vengeful guy who'll punish anyone for just about anything, from making them blind to smiting them. The Deluge, Sodom/Gamorrah, putting gay people to death (for being like he made them!), animal sacrifices, Saul on the way to Tarsus, etc. There's tons of examples to draw from. Heck, I've lived a more charitable/affable/altruistic life than most Christians I know and yet I'd be the first one on the way to Hell just because I'm not 100% behind the idea of God.
It's not that big of a stretch to imagine that earthquakes/terrorism/massacres are his way of punishing us for failing to live up to his high expectations. If he once decided to wipe basically everyone out by drowning them, what's a little earthquake in the grand scheme of things?
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God has no choice in the matter, if he did have a choice to make about good and evil he/she/it/they/w.e wouldnt be god. Choice implies restriction and lack of omnipotence.
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On July 15 2011 01:45 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:27 Thorakh wrote:On July 15 2011 01:22 Olinim wrote:
If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent.
Exactly. If he cannot do it, he is not a god. If he can, but does not want to, he is sadistic. Tell me this: Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of Good and Evil. How were they supposed to know the consequences of their actions when they hadn't eaten from it yet and as such they could not yet distinguish between right and wrong. it's an issue with sovereignty and having humankind realize the need for divine guidance from God
oddly enough, without Satan (author of temptation) we all would be mindless robots praising God 24/7 which it says in the Bible, that God did not want. That is irrelevant, he still lets us suffer while not doing anything about it, that's the defintion of sadistic. Tell me this too, there are an infinite amount of possible gods that we can imagine and another infinite amount of gods that we cannot possibly imagine. That means that for every god you follow, there is an infinite amount of other gods that will let you burn in hell for eternity. This is also only the explanation of everything through a divine being, what if we are actually in a computer game and the only way to win is to embrace logic and rationality? um lets put it this way. you are a baby. you have a mom and a dad. your parents know better than you. (agree?) ist late at night you want this chocolate bar SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad but your parents know that you shouldn't eat it especially when its late night. they say no but you cry because you want it so bad and you go to bed crying yourself to sleep. you suffered, didn't you? was it for the best? yes God knows that being mindless robots praising him 24/7 brings no happiness to both him and us. Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:29 ffreakk wrote:On July 15 2011 01:14 krndandaman wrote:On July 15 2011 01:08 NiNi wrote:On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:
My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
I totally agree ... but there is a huge problem about it. A lot of christians don't respect atheists. Most don't behave in a obsiously disrespectful way but rather hidden (and most don't even do it on purpose). Let me give you some examples: - Prayers in schools - faith schools (with public funding / replacing public schools) - words like 'god' on official items like the banknotes, coins, national anthems - public funding for religion - Special rights for christian employers (i.e. to only employ christians) - christian messages on public tv - opposing gay marriage - praying in official ceremonies - banning certain movies - using their lobby to promote self censorship and so on and so on.... Just imagine if atheists would do the same thing i.e. by praying to the flying spaghetti monster in schools, putting the flying spaghetti monster on coins, monuments, in the national anthem, opposing and banning marriages between men and women, not employing any christians etc... Most people don't notice such behavior because they are used to it. But nontheless it's shameful. [EDIT] And those are just things that happen in western countries like the usa, germany, great britain, spain etc. I don't wanna image what happens in uganda, paraguay or peru... That's pretty much all politics and I feel like Christians shouldn't obsess over politics like that. Me personally, I really can't be bothered to worry about the stuff you just listed. I've never in my life once had someone come up to me personally and complain about my belief so I'm going to assume that I am employing a decent enough of respect and courtesy to other people including atheists. Since we are already on this, i guess i will join in. The premises we are on would be: (i believe these are the commonly accepted terms of Christianity) - God is omnipotent (he is capable of about anything) - God is benevolent (he would prefer saving me to not doing so) - If i do not believe in him/doubt him, tough luck for all eternity This is nothing nobody already know about, but i just thought i would like some explanation from a true Christian, since like you said many of them proclaimed to be God's men but do not live the way they should. Me, being the flawed human being that i am, cant believe in Him due to what i perceive as lack of evidence, even after spending 4 years in Christian schools (2 years in a Methodist school, another 2 in a Catholic school). This likely mean that i will be spending the next eternity screaming in pain. What then prevent him from saving me, talk to me in my dreams, whisper to my conscience, or hell, just manifest in front of my face and tell me straight up. Also, why is he always so mysterious, so intangible? One public appearance and he would likely save millions, if not billions of those children that he so loved from eternal suffering. What would be more important than eternal time from that many people? dude. i've been raised in a christian family for 18 years, attended church my whole life, and now attend christian school and i didn't believe in God until last year. don't feel rushed because if you truly feel like there is truth in Christianity and there is something inside you that just can't dismiss Christianity away, all you are waiting for is evidence. or like you said, personally experiencing God. even though you don't feel like it works, if you pray to God to help you believe, it will happen. I know it sounds silly and I definitely thought it was stupid and pointless but it works out in the end. for me it was in a very tough time in my life with depression, meds, counseling, missing school, family problems etc. nothing made me feel better including the meds,counseling,friends,etc. but i really did experience God during that time and that's the only reason how I got out of my depression. as I know alot of people might call me stupid or delusional but what can I do? it's something that happened to me and I'd be even more delusional to dismiss it false. anyways u get my point! if you earnestly want and pray for faith you will get it
Except God's punishment is ETERNITY IN HELL, certainly comparable to denying a kid a candy bar. Your comparison is fucking absurd We're not talking about someone not getting a candy bar, God lets people roast in flames, get brutally raped. But it's all for the best right? His lack of empathy doesn't help anyone, and causes nothing but suffering. Just because you're delusional and gullible doesn't mean I should get on my knees and talk to myself.
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On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote:
Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc?
Someone get's it!
How can a Christian possibly explain a tsunami that wipes out thousands of people? A hurricane that leaves thousands dead and homeless? Poverty, disease and starvation. Is this the sign of an intelligent creator?
"God" either a) doesn't care or b) isn't there. I tend to think the latter.
Ultimately, arguing about religion is like arguing about whether pepsi is better than coke or which work of art is better than other. It's all just opinions.
Nobody has solid proof of anything. The rest is monkey theory and people acting out of fear because - GASP - there's a chance that nothing happens when we die. This is the reason why people want to believe, which is good for them if it makes them feel better but without proof is pretty irrational IMO.
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So does this mean that the "official TL stance" has been abandoned in letting religious threads be posted (I think micronesia posted something along those lines but did let a religion thread in a blog go on)?
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EPT
