Are you a deist? - Page 13

Thorakh

Netherlands1788 Posts

July 14 2011 16:53 GMT

#241

um lets put it this way.
you are a baby. you have a mom and a dad. your parents know better than you. (agree?)
ist late at night you want this chocolate bar SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad but your parents know that you shouldn't eat it especially when its late night.

they say no but you cry because you want it so bad and you go to bed crying yourself to sleep.

you suffered, didn't you? was it for the best? yes

God knows that being mindless robots praising him 24/7 brings no happiness to both him and us.

Letting horrible things happen to random humans is not 'being for the best' in any way possible. This comparison you just drew is ridiculous.

Mindcrime

United States6899 Posts

July 14 2011 16:53 GMT

#242

On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote:
Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc?

If we're talking about the Christian God, he has bigger problems than "letting" evil happen. He actively commits evil acts and demands that his followers do the same all throughout the Old Testament.

See Deuteronomy 20, wherein YHWH demands that his followers commit genocide.

ffreakk

Singapore2155 Posts

July 14 2011 16:55 GMT

#243

On July 15 2011 01:45 krndandaman wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 15 2011 01:29 ffreakk wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:14 krndandaman wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:08 NiNi wrote:

On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:
My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.

I totally agree ... but there is a huge problem about it. A lot of christians don't respect atheists. Most don't behave in a obsiously disrespectful way but rather hidden (and most don't even do it on purpose).
Let me give you some examples:
- Prayers in schools
- faith schools (with public funding / replacing public schools)
- words like 'god' on official items like the banknotes, coins, national anthems
- public funding for religion
- Special rights for christian employers (i.e. to only employ christians)
- christian messages on public tv
- opposing gay marriage
- praying in official ceremonies
- banning certain movies
- using their lobby to promote self censorship
and so on and so on....

Just imagine if atheists would do the same thing i.e. by praying to the flying spaghetti monster in schools, putting the flying spaghetti monster on coins, monuments, in the national anthem, opposing and banning marriages between men and women, not employing any christians etc...

Most people don't notice such behavior because they are used to it. But nontheless it's shameful.

[EDIT] And those are just things that happen in western countries like the usa, germany, great britain, spain etc. I don't wanna image what happens in uganda, paraguay or peru...

That's pretty much all politics and I feel like Christians shouldn't obsess over politics like that. Me personally, I really can't be bothered to worry about the stuff you just listed.
I've never in my life once had someone come up to me personally and complain about my belief so I'm going to assume that I am employing a decent enough of respect and courtesy to other people including atheists.

Since we are already on this, i guess i will join in.

The premises we are on would be: (i believe these are the commonly accepted terms of Christianity)
- God is omnipotent (he is capable of about anything)
- God is benevolent (he would prefer saving me to not doing so)
- If i do not believe in him/doubt him, tough luck for all eternity

This is nothing nobody already know about, but i just thought i would like some explanation from a true Christian, since like you said many of them proclaimed to be God's men but do not live the way they should.

Me, being the flawed human being that i am, cant believe in Him due to what i perceive as lack of evidence, even after spending 4 years in Christian schools (2 years in a Methodist school, another 2 in a Catholic school). This likely mean that i will be spending the next eternity screaming in pain. What then prevent him from saving me, talk to me in my dreams, whisper to my conscience, or hell, just manifest in front of my face and tell me straight up. Also, why is he always so mysterious, so intangible? One public appearance and he would likely save millions, if not billions of those children that he so loved from eternal suffering. What would be more important than eternal time from that many people?

dude. i've been raised in a christian family for 18 years, attended church my whole life, and now attend christian school and i didn't believe in God until last year.
don't feel rushed because if you truly feel like there is truth in Christianity and there is something inside you that just can't dismiss Christianity away, all you are waiting for is evidence.
or like you said, personally experiencing God.

even though you don't feel like it works, if you pray to God to help you believe, it will happen.
I know it sounds silly and I definitely thought it was stupid and pointless but it works out in the end.

for me it was in a very tough time in my life with depression, meds, counseling, missing school, family problems etc. nothing made me feel better including the meds,counseling,friends,etc. but i really did experience God during that time and that's the only reason how I got out of my depression.

I know alot of people might call me stupid or delusional but what can I do? it's something that happened to me and I'd be even more delusional to dismiss it as false.

anyways u get my point! if you earnestly want and pray for faith you will get it

1/ Your reply doesnt answer my only question yet: Why doesnt he do something so infinitely trivial as saving me, or the other 4 billions or so people for that matter. Why stay mysterious? Why not appear and save us all? or at least most of us?

2/ Big problem with the argument above (the 1st one before my quote). My parents arent omnipotent. If they are, they should have just made me go to sleep, knowing what is good for me. I would still know what's good, and i wouldnt have to suffer. And quite unlike crying myself to sleep for 1 night in your analogy, this Hell thing is for an eternity.

Same thing for the Satan stuffs. If Satan is bad, get rid of him. If he doesnt want people to worship him 24/7, make them do so only 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. There's no need for us to be reminded he is omnipotent right? Why go the round about way with Satan, devil, and all that suffering when he can just make things happen?

krndandaman

Mozambique16569 Posts

July 14 2011 16:55 GMT

#244

--- Nuked ---

gosublade

632 Posts

July 14 2011 16:56 GMT

#245

Religion is an abomination and cancer that must be cut from society. If you are a religious person, you are delusional and worked on by other delusional people. You are my brothers and sisters, yes. That's why everyone is telling you(religious people) to stop letting others shovel shit in your head.

Ever since you were a baby, people around you, combined with experience in your life, you were molded into a believer. If somehow you were conveyed you that a god exists, these people are not my brothers nor sisters since they are spreading cancer, false beliefs and making you have to change your life to serve a non-existent void, that makes you second guess yourself every turn.

5ukkub

Poland507 Posts

July 14 2011 17:00 GMT

#246

Why do religious people abandon reason?

Hairy

United Kingdom1169 Posts

July 14 2011 17:01 GMT

#247

On July 14 2011 16:14 ryanAnger wrote:
Assuming a linear understanding of "time" as opposed to a circular one, you are always forced to question what was before whatever is commonly accepted as "the beginning." This is a question I don't think we'll ever truly know the answer to, and that is where I've decided to fill in the gaps with my own beliefs.

Bolded the important bit. This is where we differ - I don't know what happened before the big bang, and I probably never will, but I don't understand why people find it necessary to just make stuff up. Is there anything wrong with saying "I dunno?".

I don't know how my microwave works, or how magnets work, or why so many people like shitty "musicians" like justin beiber etc. If mankind has discovered the answer to those questions that's great, but if no-one yet knows the answer that doesn't mean a magic man in the sky is responsible. We just don't know yet.

Olinim

4044 Posts

July 14 2011 17:02 GMT

#248

On July 15 2011 01:55 krndandaman wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 15 2011 01:50 Olinim wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:45 krndandaman wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:27 Thorakh wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:22 Olinim wrote:
If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent.

Exactly.

If he cannot do it, he is not a god. If he can, but does not want to, he is sadistic.

Tell me this: Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of Good and Evil. How were they supposed to know the consequences of their actions when they hadn't eaten from it yet and as such they could not yet distinguish between right and wrong.

it's an issue with sovereignty and having humankind realize the need for divine guidance from God
oddly enough, without Satan (author of temptation) we all would be mindless robots praising God 24/7 which it says in the Bible, that God did not want.

That is irrelevant, he still lets us suffer while not doing anything about it, that's the defintion of sadistic.

Tell me this too, there are an infinite amount of possible gods that we can imagine and another infinite amount of gods that we cannot possibly imagine. That means that for every god you follow, there is an infinite amount of other gods that will let you burn in hell for eternity. This is also only the explanation of everything through a divine being, what if we are actually in a computer game and the only way to win is to embrace logic and rationality?

On July 15 2011 01:29 ffreakk wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:14 krndandaman wrote:

On July 15 2011 01:08 NiNi wrote:

On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:
My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.

Except God's punishment is ETERNITY IN HELL, certainly comparable to denying a kid a candy bar. Your comparison is fucking absurd, his lack of empathy doesn't help anyone, and causes nothing but suffering. Just because you're delusional and gullible doesn't mean I should get on my knees and talk to myself.

um i just saw this before i turn off my internet browser but dude are you sure you're reading correctly?
he was talking about satan and temptation so I was referring to that.
he was saying why does God allow satan to tempt us and let us suffer?
not eternity in hell

also the whole point of the analogy was the concept, not that magnitude

whats up with the condescending attitude and name calling? delusional and gullible?

i mean, goodness, what exactly did i ever do to you to deserve that? lol. at least adhere to teamliquid posting etiquette?

besides i never even told you to start praying. stop putting words in my mouth

either way, really going to sleep now

"if you earnestly want and pray you will get it" You're basically saying that I should start praying and I'll be saved basically. also refer to freaks post to see what's wrong with your analogy.

Thorakh

Netherlands1788 Posts

July 14 2011 17:02 GMT

#249

he was talking about satan and temptation so I was referring to that.
he was saying why does God allow satan to tempt us and let us suffer?

Ah, you were referring to my part about Adam and Eve. Then dismantling your explanation becomes even more simple, Adam and Eve did not have any concept of good and wrong before eating from the tree, therefore punishing them for something they could not possibly have known is sadistic and wrong.

A child can distinguish between right and wrong. Adam and Eve couldn't. A child knows he should listen to his parents. All Adam and Eve knew was that there were two conflicting opinions about whether to eat from the tree or not (the snake and god) and as they didn't know right from wrong, God could not have reasonable expected them to make the right choice.

Also, the parents forced the chocolate bar away from the child, God did not force Adam and Eve away from the tree.

If God is omnipotent, he should have known what Adam and Eve were going to do and as such he is sadistic for putting them into a situation where he knew he was going to punish them.

ffreakk

Singapore2155 Posts

July 14 2011 17:03 GMT

#250

On July 15 2011 01:56 gosublade wrote:
Religion is an abomination and cancer that must be cut from society. If you are a religious person, you are delusional and worked on by other delusional people. You are my brothers and sisters, yes. That's why everyone is telling you(religious people) to stop letting others shovel shit in your head.

Ever since you were a baby, people around you, combined with experience in your life, you were molded into a believer. If somehow you were conveyed you that a god exists, these people are not my brothers nor sisters since they are spreading cancer, false beliefs and making you have to change your life to serve a non-existent void, that makes you second guess yourself every turn.

Lack of any argument, proof, evidence or reasons of any sort in your post.

Blind hate gets you nowhere, neither does name-calling n similar actions.

Z3kk

4099 Posts

July 14 2011 17:05 GMT

#251

On July 15 2011 02:00 5ukkub wrote:
Why do religious people abandon reason?

Why do non-religious people ask such biased leading questions? Why are you a troll?

I'm not going to take sides, but keep in mind that you are essentially being the atheist equivalent of fundamentalism -___-

5ukkub

Poland507 Posts

July 14 2011 17:10 GMT

#252

On July 15 2011 02:05 Z3kk wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well... the question isn't about ARE religious people reasonable (because i think they are not)..
I asked why they aren't. Is it wrong to ask it?

Marais

Brazil26 Posts

July 14 2011 17:11 GMT

#253

On July 15 2011 02:05 Z3kk wrote:

Show nested quote +

WHAT? do you know what atheism is?anyone who answers no to the question "Is there any kind of god?" is an atheist, how does is make all of the atheist fundamentalists? do i need to belive in unrusonable stuff to be a resonable person?

NorthernRiver

Sweden107 Posts

July 14 2011 17:12 GMT

#254

This is a question I don't think we'll ever truly know the answer to, and that is where I've decided to fill in the gaps with my own beliefs.

It's surprising how many people think they can solve the problem of what actually existed before our universe by imagining that something created it. Doing so just pushes the issue one step forward and one could keep asking what existed before the being that created the universe. So imagining that somebody created the universe and just left it doesn't really explain much, though it seems to give many an ease of mind.

zul

Germany5427 Posts

July 14 2011 17:12 GMT

#255

guys please stay on topic or I feel this thread might get closed. The first 8-9 pages were really good, but the last ones pretty much dragged the whole situation into mudd. stop attacking eachother and read!!! the OP, then (if you feel like adding something useful) post it in a manner that presents facts and not your (mostly negative) emotions.