And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent
I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell.
In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random.
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:00 krndandaman wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:56 Vore210 wrote:
On July 14 2011 19:41 Linkirvana wrote:
I still think burden of proof is on the person believing in god, atheism is without belief and isn't claiming certainty of no god. The video wraps it up well.
Glad to see the thread hasn't turned into a shitfest/flamewar yet, hopefully it can stay that way.
I watched the start of the video and already there are a couple things I disagree with.
Let me first define atheism for you: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"
Copied off of wikipedia.
As far as I can tell, this literally means that an atheist considers it a fact that there is no God, of any kind. However, since one cannot state that as a fact (Since there are legit reasonings leading to the conclusion of there being a God, in the broadest sense of the word) one could say that, atheists ->believe<- there is no God, at all.
Which brings me back to my post you quoted.
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Telling people that they will burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe in the same thing you do is not a Christian thing to do. It's arrogant and most importantly 'not of love'. Loving others is the most important commandment in the Christian religion.
hell was created for satan and his angels but we were dragged into his rebellion and now we are sentenced to die just like he was. However, salvation is available and free to any human being who would call upon his name. (not to fallen angels thats why they super hate us (: )
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent
I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell.
In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random.
They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck".
On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote: My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
I totally agree ... but there is a huge problem about it. A lot of christians don't respect atheists. Most don't behave in a obsiously disrespectful way but rather hidden (and most don't even do it on purpose). Let me give you some examples: - Prayers in schools - faith schools (with public funding / replacing public schools) - words like 'god' on official items like the banknotes, coins, national anthems - public funding for religion - Special rights for christian employers (i.e. to only employ christians) - christian messages on public tv - opposing gay marriage - praying in official ceremonies - banning certain movies - using their lobby to promote self censorship and so on and so on....
Just imagine if atheists would do the same thing i.e. by praying to the flying spaghetti monster in schools, putting the flying spaghetti monster on coins, monuments, in the national anthem, opposing and banning marriages between men and women, not employing any christians etc...
Most people don't notice such behavior because they are used to it. But nontheless it's shameful.
[EDIT] And those are just things that happen in western countries like the usa, germany, great britain, spain etc. I don't wanna image what happens in uganda, paraguay or peru...
On July 15 2011 00:16 gentile wrote: as a philosophy student all your wikipedia "knowledge" makes me close to actually vomiting..so does the Christianity and any other religions some people have created and still create in order to give their life anything that the common human beeing refers to as a sense. This goes for any Scientific reasoning aswell, for it is always, in the core, at the start, to believe in something, to put something at the start of argument, which cannot be proven. Any mathematical axioms for example are honestly the same as believing in something like a divine god.
In fact it's even worse than this. Not only does one need to come up with axioms from which to argue, one needs to accept a priori that reason is, well, reasonable. That one can arrive at truth via its application. This is due to the unfortunate fact that one cannot prove that reason is reasonable without using reason!
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
I still think burden of proof is on the person believing in god, atheism is without belief and isn't claiming certainty of no god. The video wraps it up well.
Glad to see the thread hasn't turned into a shitfest/flamewar yet, hopefully it can stay that way.
I watched the start of the video and already there are a couple things I disagree with.
Let me first define atheism for you: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"
Copied off of wikipedia.
As far as I can tell, this literally means that an atheist considers it a fact that there is no God, of any kind. However, since one cannot state that as a fact (Since there are legit reasonings leading to the conclusion of there being a God, in the broadest sense of the word) one could say that, atheists ->believe<- there is no God, at all.
Which brings me back to my post you quoted.
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians.
Which logical fallacy is this? I forget.
Edit: No true Scotsman logical fallacy
logical fallacy or not, thats the only way to put it because there are alot of self-proclaimed Christians who don't live the way they preach
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
I still think burden of proof is on the person believing in god, atheism is without belief and isn't claiming certainty of no god. The video wraps it up well.
Glad to see the thread hasn't turned into a shitfest/flamewar yet, hopefully it can stay that way.
I watched the start of the video and already there are a couple things I disagree with.
Let me first define atheism for you: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"
Copied off of wikipedia.
As far as I can tell, this literally means that an atheist considers it a fact that there is no God, of any kind. However, since one cannot state that as a fact (Since there are legit reasonings leading to the conclusion of there being a God, in the broadest sense of the word) one could say that, atheists ->believe<- there is no God, at all.
Which brings me back to my post you quoted.
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Telling people that they will burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe in the same thing you do is not a Christian thing to do. It's arrogant and most importantly 'not of love'. Loving others is the most important commandment in the Christian religion.
I do believe that. doesn't mean I go out and tell someone they're gonna go to hell and burn in eternity forever? That's not gonna get anyone listening to you with that approach. Also, it is wrong in the first place to tell someone they are going to hell because the ultimate decision lies with God. Basically those people are doing 'backseat moderating' which their God will definitely not be happy with.
Irony. You just said the ultimate decision lies with God, implying they should not speak on his behalf, then you say "which God will definitely not be happy with" if they don't know who's going to hell how do you know he won't be happy?
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:00 krndandaman wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:56 Vore210 wrote: [quote]
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
There are various things in the Bible that are simply incorrect, there's no evidence to support the story of noah's ark for example, Jesus' existence is questionable, we know the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Inc "it was all a metaphor lolz"
lol you have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other atheists. those are just 'typical' objections many atheists use.
just use google and you'll see how much support there is.
You have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other theists. Those are 'typical' arguments many theists use. just use google and you'll see how stupid it is.
Also 2 posts above me.
... are you just saying that for the sake of mimicking because I highly doubt that
On July 15 2011 00:55 Djzapz wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:51 Thorakh wrote:
Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world.
Ah, argument ad populum. The second worst of them all right behind ad hoc.
If it cannot be proven or disproven the only logical stance to take is agnostic (or 'weak' atheism if you really want) as it would be pointless to believe or disbelieve. Also, watch this video: + Show Spoiler +
I don't think it was an ad populum. He was just saying that Calling Christians stupid = Calling a third of the world stupid.
yes, exactly.
I was simply demonstrating how your response had absolutely no depth and didn't rebut anything. Just said "lolol heard it a million times USE GOOGLE BRO"
sorry for my lack of effort but I am just way too lazy to research for you lol
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent
I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell.
In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random.
They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck".
Christians believe that God is a good and loving God so they trust that he will take care of those without the privilege of hearing the gospel. however, no one can know for sure because it's divine choice.
Well I'm sorry my immortal soul that apparently exists is of such little significance that you won't even bother to do a google search. Almost makes me feel like you don't actually believe in it...but hey what do I know.
Just imagine if atheists would do the same thing i.e. by praying to the flying spaghetti monster in schools, putting the flying spaghetti monster on coins, monuments, in the national anthem, opposing and banning marriages between men and women, not employing any christians etc...
Did you hear about the Austrian who wore a spaghetti strainer on his head for his drivers license?
On July 15 2011 00:16 gentile wrote: as a philosophy student all your wikipedia "knowledge" makes me close to actually vomiting..so does the Christianity and any other religions some people have created and still create in order to give their life anything that the common human beeing refers to as a sense. This goes for any Scientific reasoning aswell, for it is always, in the core, at the start, to believe in something, to put something at the start of argument, which cannot be proven. Any mathematical axioms for example are honestly the same as believing in something like a divine god. This does not mean in any way that you all shoudnt be allowed to believe what you want. In the end I actually dont give a crap what you think is right or wrong for it doesnt matter at all to be frank. All this nonsense just pulls you further away from actually asking yourself the real questions you should have ask yourself about how and why and where and when you want to spend your life. Only the weak search for any kind of guidance in faith, unable to accept that life is cruel and an end will surely come and therefor should live in the very moment, instead of always looking right and left should rather gather their own strenght to actually be who they are, who they are meant to be.
Why are you studying philsophy? you've got all the answers already... Why do you spend ur time studying the works of men who, in most cases, belong to the very organizations you slander? Why do you study at all?
You seem to be (and correct me if im wrong as your writings leaves me guessing) presenting yourself as an absurdist, a solist and fatalist all at once. None of those concepts are particularly novel and can be found in the angst filled writings of any given adolescent...if you truly don't care then don't speak when you have nothing new to offer the discussion.
why? cause philosophy gives me pleasure above everything else I have found yet. Glad that you got what I am and are able to divide me into these 3 crucial parts, these 3 parts by the way are no indication that I cannot understand and follow the arguments of whos literatur I might read or have to read, no matter if I do not agree in many cases and yes (!) nothing is new, I did never claim so, everything was said and is done allready..I saw nothing new in any other post aswell..then again I wasnt aware that you have to come up with something new to be part of a very old discussion..my bad, I was only sharing my view, glad anyway that it is not entirely new to you. And I do care..in fact I do care too much for stuff like this.
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:00 krndandaman wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:56 Vore210 wrote: [quote]
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians.
Which logical fallacy is this? I forget.
Edit: No true Scotsman logical fallacy
logical fallacy or not, thats the only way to put it because there are alot of self-proclaimed Christians who don't live the way they preach
On July 15 2011 01:02 Olinim wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:59 krndandaman wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:54 Olinim wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:42 krndandaman wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:39 krndandaman wrote: Yes, I believe in God.
it's really quite ridiculous how many people complain about Christians shoving religion down others' throats when atheists try to do the same to me (bash my beliefs).
I really don't get why a lot of the people on this forum are making statements such as "whoever believes in an invisible old bearded man in the sky is clearly dangerous and insane". Honestly?
If you did any research you'd understand that it really isn't far-fetched at all to believe in a god or higher-being in the first place.
Either way, arguing about religion on the internet really never gets anywhere lol.
Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:00 krndandaman wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:56 Vore210 wrote: [quote]
In that case you can claim that there are no facts, because the universe is huge and we can't know.
...Which is daft.
You can't say the flying spaghetti monster nor scientology is untrue but people consider those false without even thinking about it. Same with most of the over 3000 dead religions gods.
I could make up a god right now, and it would have the same likelihood of the christian god or any other god existing. I could make it as ridiculous as possible, and it would still not be "unprovable". And you couldn't say I just made it up, because I could be a prophet!
So understand that if you go down the seriously weak route of "well you can't prove a god doesn't exist" what you're really doing is instead of judging religion with the critical thinking faculties you've applied to unicorns, leprechauns, pixies, all the old weird religions/paganism, you're going with paschal's wager. And paschal's wager is a contemptable piece of writing, because it seems to assume that the god in question (who is supposedly omniscient) could be fooled by a mere human.
It's just pathetic pandering.
Um, just saying, but the Christian God has much more sources backing it up on top of testimonials, historical documents, etc. whereas the flying spaghetti monster and whatever god you may conjure up doesn't. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to put it that way lol
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
If you truly believe that, you seriously need to talk with actual Christians. Telling people that they will burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe in the same thing you do is not a Christian thing to do. It's arrogant and most importantly 'not of love'. Loving others is the most important commandment in the Christian religion.
I do believe that. doesn't mean I go out and tell someone they're gonna go to hell and burn in eternity forever? That's not gonna get anyone listening to you with that approach. Also, it is wrong in the first place to tell someone they are going to hell because the ultimate decision lies with God. Basically those people are doing 'backseat moderating' which their God will definitely not be happy with.
Irony. You just said the ultimate decision lies with God, implying they should not speak on his behalf, then you say "which God will definitely not be happy with" if they don't know who's going to hell how do you know he won't be happy?
Because it says in the Bible? (which is the core of the Christian faith) there is a bunch of stuff saying not to judge others and self-examine ones self as God has the ultimate call.
On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote: Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc?
The belief that many Christians have is that the world is a fallen world which Satan rules over. Because of that, there are flaws in a once perfect world made by God.
now if I have to explain why Satan "rules" over the earth (incoming but why?/ isn't god all powerful and rules over everything???) it would go on and on so if you want to find out alot of your questions on your own alot of your answers are on google. ( I know, I'm lazy)
On July 15 2011 00:10 Olinim wrote: [quote] Shoving beliefs down people's throats is trying to enforce religious dogma into law, like what many Christians do, still actively fighting against gay marriage, not telling you you're stupid. Maybe when an atheist tries to ban Christianity you may have a point.
I don't see how that covers the millions of Christians around the world (You're probably addressing Christians who live in the US who oppose gay marriage). Me personally as a Christian, think we have much bigger things to worry about than allowing gay marriage. Would I oppose gay marriage? To be honest, I don't even care. I believe that deciding whether gay marriage is legalized or not is not an issue Christians should be so concerned with. Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Getting married doesn't make the sin any worse so I don't quite agree with the Christians vehemently opposing gay marriage. Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world. My point is that there should be a basic level of respect and courtesy between people no matter the difference in religion.
On July 15 2011 00:18 Vore210 wrote: [quote]
It simply doesn't. The closest historian to "jesus" was Josephus, who wrote hand-me-down stories 20 years after his supposed death. Imagine if someone totoday attempted to hand in a history paper as an accurate source, with all information being obtained from uneducated, illiterate story tellers 20 years after the supposed event? You'd be given an F.
All other accounts are even more out of their time.
Anyway back to deism, so do you who just randomly "believe" to fill in a gap of knowledge instead of saying I don't know, not feel any intellectual dishonesty to that? Not feel as if you're selling your own mental abilities short? I would.
Sigh. Do your research. Have you even read the apologetics? There are many many accurate sources supporting Christianity. It's silly to not think there are. And did you just really try to compare today's ability to record and document information with that of more than 2000 years ago?
There are various things in the Bible that are simply incorrect, there's no evidence to support the story of noah's ark for example, Jesus' existence is questionable, we know the earth wasn't created in 7 days. Inc "it was all a metaphor lolz"
lol you have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other atheists. those are just 'typical' objections many atheists use.
just use google and you'll see how much support there is.
You have no idea how many times I heard the same things from other theists. Those are 'typical' arguments many theists use. just use google and you'll see how stupid it is.
Also 2 posts above me.
... are you just saying that for the sake of mimicking because I highly doubt that
On July 15 2011 00:55 Djzapz wrote:
On July 15 2011 00:51 Thorakh wrote:
Also, I feel that calling someone stupid for a belief they have is just wrong. Many people with different levels of intelligence, both high and low, believe in a god. It isn't something that can be physically proved or disproved so it's quite pointless to call someone stupid over it. Especially when it's believed by a good 1/3 of the world.
Ah, argument ad populum. The second worst of them all right behind ad hoc.
If it cannot be proven or disproven the only logical stance to take is agnostic (or 'weak' atheism if you really want) as it would be pointless to believe or disbelieve. Also, watch this video: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU
I don't think it was an ad populum. He was just saying that Calling Christians stupid = Calling a third of the world stupid.
yes, exactly.
I was simply demonstrating how your response had absolutely no depth and didn't rebut anything. Just said "lolol heard it a million times USE GOOGLE BRO"
sorry for my lack of effort but I am just way too lazy to research for you lol
On July 15 2011 01:06 Djzapz wrote:
On July 15 2011 01:04 Dreis1337 wrote:
And I think it's wrong to try to intimidate people by telling them they will burn in hell for eternity if they don't follow your religion with no proof.
Another reason why the Christian god is either sadistic as hell or simply inconsistent
I may be wrong in this, but don't you go to hell if you don't believe in God? So what about everyone that grew up and died with no knowledge of Him? Seems strange that millions of people in (example) the Americas, prior to European discovery and introduction of Christianity, would just helplessly go to hell.
In fact, if they are never introduced to the religion at all then they can never "know" (by a religious definition of knowledge) what is right and wrong, so their fate is completely random.
They'll have various explanations from that ranging from "those are special cases and they'll still go to heaven" to "well they're out of luck".
Christians believe that God is a good and loving God so they trust that he will take care of those without the privilege of hearing the gospel. however, no one can know for sure because it's divine choice.
Well I'm sorry my immortal soul that apparently exists is of such little significance that you won't even bother to do a google search. Almost makes me feel like you don't actually believe in it...but hey what do I know.
lol sorry but both of us know you're not going to be converted over a tiny discussion on a starcraft forum
i just wanted to give a little insight from a christian's point of view
If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent.
On July 15 2011 01:12 emPER12 wrote: Can someone who believe in God, explain me why he let earquakes happen, massacres, terrorist attacks killing civil people.. etc?
Sure, but im kinda busy so here's Leibniz's attempt:
for futher clarification on he's belief i suggest reading the monadology, discorse on metaphysics, ethics by spinoz and 6 or 7 more works from this era.
On July 15 2011 01:22 Olinim wrote: If God allows an evil being like "Satan" to freely terrorize people when he has the power to stop it then he is malevolent.
Exactly.
If he cannot do it, he is not a god. If he can, but does not want to, he is sadistic.
Tell me this: Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of Good and Evil. How were they supposed to know the consequences of their actions when they hadn't eaten from it yet and as such they could not yet distinguish between right and wrong.
it's an issue with sovereignty and having humankind realize the need for divine guidance from God oddly enough, without Satan (author of temptation) we all would be mindless robots praising God 24/7 which it says in the Bible, that God did not want.
That is irrelevant, he still lets us suffer while not doing anything about it, that's the defintion of sadistic.
Tell me this too, there are an infinite amount of possible gods that we can imagine and another infinite amount of gods that we cannot possibly imagine. That means that for every god you follow, there is an infinite amount of other gods that will let you burn in hell for eternity. This is also only the explanation of everything through a divine being, what if we are actually in a computer game and the only way to win is to embrace logic and rationality?
EPT
