EPTDid the 4 Gate Nerf effect PvZ? - Page 2
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:19 L3gendary wrote: Well protoss are mostly struggling and against roach ling all ins and trying to balance safety with not allowing zergs to get too greedy early game. Late game deathballs still favour protoss. That's why both sides are complaining about the matchup. The warpgate timing doesn't really affect 3 gate expand tho because of the sentry timing buff, I think it's just a shift in strategy. Maybe it is just me watching mostly pros play, but when a toss 3 gate expands n zerg does the roach ling allins the P is still able to hold it pretty well with decent forcefields. (yes it depends on map and if scouted etc.) | ||
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RoyalCheese
Czech Republic745 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:13 KgKris wrote: Yeah, see that's the other thing... Classically Zergs have always had trouble with Protoss, especially in mid to late game (although the death ball hardly comes up as much as it used to since the infestor buff). IdrA's mantra is that "Zergs can't win against Protoss," but statistically I think the W/L ratio in PvZ has been favoring Z for a few weeks now. It's definitely nowhere near where it was when MC won two championships. I'm really just wondering if anyone else feels like 1.3.3 may have been a partially cause of this shift. We definitely see a lot more ling/roach all-ins than we saw pre-patch. And I don't know when the last time was I saw a Protoss cancel their nexus expansion and go all in on 4 gates... I'm not saying that zergs "can't" win vs protoss... but I sincerly think that protoss players have an easier time with their races.... Also... I don't know how many times I've lost to the ~9-10min mark to some 2 base 6-7 gates stalkers/sentries all-in while I was taking a 3rd. If I can't get good infos with my 2 scouting overlords I'm basicaly done! and if the game last more than 20mins... ouch! my only hope is baneling drops (which is pretty good) but if it fails.... I get to play with 5units (cause all my banes died) and -5 - 6 overlords and.... basicaly what I mean is that it's GG!  So while zerg struggle all game long to stay ahead in base all protoss has to think is to take a 3rd to get 6 gaz and it's basicaly "jobs done"! EDIT: added spoiler tag... cause it might be a spoiler to some ppl  + Show Spoiler + So..... totaly not saying that protoss is OP, but seriously... I really doupt protoss can complain right now ! As for latest results... I doupt homestory and DH was tallied in these numbers. Anyone remember that HuK won 2 tournaments back to back!! | ||
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
Point is, in this MU it really hasn't had that big of an effect. | ||
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vexos
Russian Federation19 Posts
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Rabbitmaster
1357 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:04 mewby wrote: no, every little thing matters but not enough to cause a metagame shift Seeing as metagame shifts can occur without balance changes, i think a 20 sec nerf to warpgate tech can most certainly caused a metagame shift... ot: I've also noticed PvZ early game being A LOT more difficult, even though i almost never 4-gated. So i don't really know whats up i guess. | ||
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KgKris
United States164 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:27 vexos wrote: Sentry build time pretty much compensates warpgate research nerf in PvZ. Sure, but an increase in the number of sentries means a decrease in the risk for a Zerg to macro hard in the early game. Without any threat of early warpgate pressure (which no one even uses anymore) it may allow the Zerg to cut corners they never would have cut prior to 1.3.3. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:14 blade55555 wrote: well that was on state of the game. Tosses did amazing at dreamhack (8 of the 16 were protoss) and top 3 were protoss at the homestory cup. But in Korea protosses are struggling alot. In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails. I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded. Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end. I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote: In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails. I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded. Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss. You have to be very careful with what you are pressuring with lest you lose all your units. I do see white-ra pressure here and there with blink stalkers to great effect. But still, you gotta remember, even blink stalkers can't get away from speedlings over great distances, and will take heavy casualties to roaches on a big blanket of creep. Generally I think map control is mostly done with dts. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote: In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails. I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded. Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss. i don't think you can expect drop play from protoss though just because of how warp prism is (really low health), but i do agree that some kind of blink pressure or maybe just atking to snipe a expo then retreat would be good for protoss. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:24 oogieogie wrote: Maybe it is just me watching mostly pros play, but when a toss 3 gate expands n zerg does the roach ling allins the P is still able to hold it pretty well with decent forcefields. (yes it depends on map and if scouted etc.) You are right it's perfectly defendable but you usually need a stargate or dts to hold it (on maps like xel-naga), so even though it's very safe it can put you behind economically. The zerg can either all in or double expo and power drone. | ||
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KgKris
United States164 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote: Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread. To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end. I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. | ||
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sefio
103 Posts
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KgKris
United States164 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:46 sefio wrote: You should've named the thread 'did the warp gate nerf change PvZ' instead of just 4 gate. Surely the warp gate nerf slows down 3 gate expand builds as well as every other build and probe production 'cause you need to get the warp gate tech up and if you don't chrono the core, it takes forever. You're right, sorry I can't change it now. I just always remember that the whole reason for slowing down warpgate tech was because of how strong 4 gate used to be (still is?) in PvP. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote: Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP. You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it. I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it. I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:36 travis wrote: You have to be very careful with what you are pressuring with lest you lose all your units. I do see white-ra pressure here and there with blink stalkers to great effect. But still, you gotta remember, even blink stalkers can't get away from speedlings over great distances, and will take heavy casualties to roaches on a big blanket of creep. Generally I think map control is mostly done with dts. Yeah there's definitely a lot of DT play working very well right now. Still, I feel like Blink Stalkers are extremely powerful for controlling the map especially on some specific maps. | ||
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Lennox
Lithuania36 Posts
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