Did the 4 Gate Nerf effect PvZ?

On June 30 2011 05:05 BurningSera wrote:
i wouldnt call that a neff tbh.

On June 30 2011 05:10 Kira__ wrote:
Protoss doesnt seem to be struggling against zerg outside of korea. Maybe it has something to do with the myth about koreans being amazing at refining builds, but not being very creative. Perhaps it will take the korean protosses some time to catch up.

On June 30 2011 05:08 Konsume wrote:
As a 1300ish master level zerg... protoss is my hardest matchup right now!

On June 30 2011 05:12 stormchaser wrote:

I'm not sure if this is true. I mean it was only a few weeks ago that on SOTG, all the tosses on there were complaining about PvZ. I think it's just a very volatile matchup that can be frustrating to alot of people.

On June 30 2011 05:12 stormchaser wrote:

I'm not sure if this is true. I mean it was only a few weeks ago that on SOTG, all the tosses on there were complaining about PvZ. I think it's just a very volatile matchup that can be frustrating to alot of people.

On June 30 2011 05:19 L3gendary wrote:
Well protoss are mostly struggling and against roach ling all ins and trying to balance safety with not allowing zergs to get too greedy early game. Late game deathballs still favour protoss. That's why both sides are complaining about the matchup. The warpgate timing doesn't really affect 3 gate expand tho because of the sentry timing buff, I think it's just a shift in strategy.

On June 30 2011 05:13 KgKris wrote:


Yeah, see that's the other thing... Classically Zergs have always had trouble with Protoss, especially in mid to late game (although the death ball hardly comes up as much as it used to since the infestor buff).

IdrA's mantra is that "Zergs can't win against Protoss," but statistically I think the W/L ratio in PvZ has been favoring Z for a few weeks now.

It's definitely nowhere near where it was when MC won two championships. I'm really just wondering if anyone else feels like 1.3.3 may have been a partially cause of this shift.

We definitely see a lot more ling/roach all-ins than we saw pre-patch. And I don't know when the last time was I saw a Protoss cancel their nexus expansion and go all in on 4 gates...

On June 30 2011 05:04 mewby wrote:
no, every little thing matters but not enough to cause a metagame shift

On June 30 2011 05:27 vexos wrote:
Sentry build time pretty much compensates warpgate research nerf in PvZ.

On June 30 2011 05:14 blade55555 wrote:


well that was on state of the game. Tosses did amazing at dreamhack (8 of the 16 were protoss) and top 3 were protoss at the homestory cup. But in Korea protosses are struggling alot.

On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote:


In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails.

I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded.

Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss.

On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote:


In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails.

I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded.

Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss.

On June 30 2011 05:24 oogieogie wrote:

Maybe it is just me watching mostly pros play, but when a toss 3 gate expands n zerg does the roach ling allins the P is still able to hold it pretty well with decent forcefields. (yes it depends on map and if scouted etc.)

On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote:
Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread.

To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end.
I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance.

On June 30 2011 05:46 sefio wrote:
You should've named the thread 'did the warp gate nerf change PvZ' instead of just 4 gate. Surely the warp gate nerf slows down 3 gate expand builds as well as every other build and probe production 'cause you need to get the warp gate tech up and if you don't chrono the core, it takes forever.

On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote:


Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title.

On June 30 2011 05:36 travis wrote:


You have to be very careful with what you are pressuring with lest you lose all your units.

I do see white-ra pressure here and there with blink stalkers to great effect. But still, you gotta remember, even blink stalkers can't get away from speedlings over great distances, and will take heavy casualties to roaches on a big blanket of creep.

Generally I think map control is mostly done with dts.

On June 30 2011 05:50 Piski wrote:


No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP.
You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it.
I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it.
I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go.

On June 30 2011 05:54 KgKris wrote:



Here you go:

Not that you really deserve a response, I was just going to let your attitude speak for itself.

Despite compromising less than a third of all invited players, a whopping 6 of the 8 starting groups were won by Protoss, with Naniwa, Sase, MC, White-Ra, and Huk all ripping through 5-0 without dropping a single series, leading to an Ro16 and Ro8 that were both half Protoss.

It seemed that over the entire tournament any player caught building a pylon had his winning percentage boosted significatly: Protoss held winning records against both Zerg (50-34, 59%) and Terran (58-33, 63%).

On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote:


In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails.

I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded.

Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss.

On June 30 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:


Outdated statistics.

From Dreamhack, which boasted quite a significant number of games...


March was when players started using banelings vs Protoss. March/April was when Protoss had no fucking clue to do vs it, and also when the Roach/Ling allin vs 3gate expand became the most popular (I believe, not positive). Protoss players are both significantly more prepared for those styles of play now.

On June 30 2011 05:02 KgKris wrote:
I just watch a GSL game so I conclude that Z > P imba b/c u cant 4gate anymore b/c warpgate sooooo slowwww (even tho, you kinda still can) discuss!