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On June 30 2011 05:50 Piski wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote:On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote:
Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread.
To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end.
I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP. You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it. I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it. I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go.
Here you go:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6H14r.png)
Not that you really deserve a response, I was just going to let your attitude speak for itself.
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On June 30 2011 05:54 KgKris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 05:50 Piski wrote:On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote:On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote:
Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread.
To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end.
I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP. You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it. I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it. I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go. Here you go: Not that you really deserve a response, I was just going to let your attitude speak for itself.
Outdated statistics.
From Dreamhack, which boasted quite a significant number of games...
Despite compromising less than a third of all invited players, a whopping 6 of the 8 starting groups were won by Protoss, with Naniwa, Sase, MC, White-Ra, and Huk all ripping through 5-0 without dropping a single series, leading to an Ro16 and Ro8 that were both half Protoss.
It seemed that over the entire tournament any player caught building a pylon had his winning percentage boosted significatly: Protoss held winning records against both Zerg (50-34, 59%) and Terran (58-33, 63%).
March was when players started using banelings vs Protoss. March/April was when Protoss had no fucking clue to do vs it, and also when the Roach/Ling allin vs 3gate expand became the most popular (I believe, not positive). Protoss players are both significantly more prepared for those styles of play now.
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Imba, Imba. Metagame. 4gate. Imbalance. Artosis. Forcefield you SeE?
20 seconds, 1/3 minute, Metagame once again. 3 pylon block rush. gtlBaBY.
Imba dt roach, Void Ray Cybernetics for make better Cybersports.
The only thing that the change impacts heavily outside of 4gate is when toss is taking their natural at a "safe" time. In order to get the 6 minute "money" timing of the WG in conjunction with their nexus, they must chronoboost their WG almost exclusively. If they do not, they are expanding with a zealot and 2 sentries blindly; they don't know how many speed lings the zerg made; if they cut drones and made a whole bunch of zerglings, protoss has a larger window where their nexus in jepeordy of cancelation and the window of a risky expansion is MUCH larger.
EDIT: timing attack
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 30 2011 05:54 KgKris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 05:50 Piski wrote:On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote:On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote:
Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread.
To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end.
I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP. You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it. I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it. I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go. Here you go: Not that you really deserve a response, I was just going to let your attitude speak for itself.
If those are your only reasoning for protoss struggling why not discuss it in the thread those are posted?
Why are you even that defencive. I'm not trying to crucify you.
I see those stats and raise you protoss winning two latest major foreigner tournaments. For me non of those really decisively say anything.
I do think Alicia is a better player than CoCa but then again I think July is better than Trickster.
Just because I'm not confriming your thoughts doesn't mean I am an asshole who wants this thread closed and you banned.
I'm sure even you want this thread having a direction rather than just say "discuss" and see what happens when a forum full of Protoss and Zergs start to fight how the other race is imbalance.
Edit: Put the pic post in spoilers not to take too much room.
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Annoyingly enough, it made roach/ling all-ins harder to deal with, because if you get Hallucination after Warpgate, then you won't scout in time to prepare for the attack. Don't think it changed that much otherwise though; nobody was really doing straight up 4gates anyway, and you can still cancel a Nexus at 99% and still have a very powerful attack.
On June 30 2011 05:32 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 05:14 blade55555 wrote:On June 30 2011 05:12 stormchaser wrote:On June 30 2011 05:10 Kira__ wrote:
Protoss doesnt seem to be struggling against zerg outside of korea. Maybe it has something to do with the myth about koreans being amazing at refining builds, but not being very creative. Perhaps it will take the korean protosses some time to catch up. I'm not sure if this is true. I mean it was only a few weeks ago that on SOTG, all the tosses on there were complaining about PvZ. I think it's just a very volatile matchup that can be frustrating to alot of people. well that was on state of the game. Tosses did amazing at dreamhack (8 of the 16 were protoss) and top 3 were protoss at the homestory cup. But in Korea protosses are struggling alot. In the GSL were seeing a lot of protoss losing because their 2 base all-in or deathball push fails. I think that P needs to do something else than doing an all-in or turteling. You know like apply pressure, like Terrans do in TvZ. You seriously never see a blink pressure build, just to take map control in the mid-game. It's always a really heavy all-in. For example, the games of San vs Sheth could of went differently if San only got one less gate, applied pressure with his blink stalkers and expanded. Basically Protoss wasn't having much success doing all-ins anymore so they started getting a deathball which Zerg learned how to deal with (it's still really not easy) and nothing new is coming out from Protoss.
There's a good reason you don't see "pressure" or "harassment" from Protoss that often. The race is simply designed to promote Warpgate all-ins or turtling, especially against Zerg. If you pressure as Protoss and you lose your whole army, you have lost the game, period. It's a lot of risk for not that much reward. Blink is becoming so popular right now not because of how good or bad Blink Stalkers are, but because they can actually retreat and move around the map with a degree of freedom, as opposed to every other Protoss unit.
Compare this to a Terran, who will often be happy to trade his Marine/Tank push for a bunch of Mutalisks and Banelings, and will usually be cost-effective at that.
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On June 30 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 05:54 KgKris wrote:On June 30 2011 05:50 Piski wrote:On June 30 2011 05:40 KgKris wrote:On June 30 2011 05:35 Piski wrote:
Actually we lasted a pretty hood while before someone made a balance whine *cough* sorry, balanca discussion thread.
To actually answer the OP I would say how is protoss struggling? Winning tournaments isn't doesn't really say much but DH and HMCIII went to protoss and with a good amount of protoss players in the end.
I'm not saying this automatically means protoss is OP but I would say this game is closest to balance than it has ever been. I would like to hear more reasons why the OP feels PvZ is imbalance and participate to his own discussion. You just point us to one match and ask if this means there is imbalance. Thanks for being an avid contributor to the discussion, sorry I didn't include the words imbalanced, OP or whine in the thread title. No offence but I feel I contributed more than you with that OP. You're not the first to not include the words imbalanced so don't think you've done something new here. You're still implying it. I could be totally wrong and this could be a good discussion and I will be actually following it. I did actually ask you to elaborate why do you think protoss is struggling besides that match and you decided that instead of answering you would do a smartass response to my post. Way to go. Here you go: Not that you really deserve a response, I was just going to let your attitude speak for itself. Outdated statistics. From Dreamhack, which boasted quite a significant number of games... Show nested quote +
Despite compromising less than a third of all invited players, a whopping 6 of the 8 starting groups were won by Protoss, with Naniwa, Sase, MC, White-Ra, and Huk all ripping through 5-0 without dropping a single series, leading to an Ro16 and Ro8 that were both half Protoss.
It seemed that over the entire tournament any player caught building a pylon had his winning percentage boosted significatly: Protoss held winning records against both Zerg (50-34, 59%) and Terran (58-33, 63%).
March was when players started using banelings vs Protoss. March/April was when Protoss had no fucking clue to do vs it, and also when the Roach/Ling allin vs 3gate expand became the most popular (I believe, not positive). Protoss players are both significantly more prepared for those styles of play now.
Sorry I should have specified. That chart is from May (a few weeks after 1.3.3 was released) and only covers games from the GSL/Korea. Here is a link to the description:
http://twitpic.com/4sdkpv
Honestly, I have watched enough GSL to believe that this trend continued through May and June.
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On June 30 2011 05:02 KgKris wrote:
I just watch a GSL game so I conclude that Z > P imba b/c u cant 4gate anymore b/c warpgate sooooo slowwww (even tho, you kinda still can) discuss!
Please don't turn TL into the B.net forums.
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EPT
