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On June 19 2011 18:17 SolidSnoopy wrote:Show nested quote +Okay my OP aside, and please correct me if I'm wrong because again I'm here to learn, lets say strictly PvP. I do some sort of DT rush to apply some early pressure and my opponent has an observer. I wouldn't say that a RF or an observer would hurt an army size or worker count right? you hafta think of each matchup in terms of what you can scout and what your opponent is doing. you shouldnt just say things like "well if i'm going to dt rush and he has a robo and obs out already then it would be bad." if you scout that your opponent will have early detection, obviously dont try to dt rush him. if you scout that your opponent is being greedy then a dt rush can pay off. you cant cater one build to different situations
Well it doesn't necessarily have to come down to just that. I can scout with a probe, interrupt what he is doing, and try to catch him off guard with an early DT harass and not know he has a robo in the works while doing so.
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I use dts a lot in pvz. Mainly because I use them together with blink stalkers, you can hold about any attack with blinkers + dts by just sniping overseers, and also when you run into a zerg expansion with your blinkers, you wont necesarrily have the time to kill the hatch, but to kill the spore isn't all that unlikely, then let your dts kill the hatch. I find them very useful, but only in certan situations. It's also a coinflip if you rush them in pvp, if he goes robo you're screwed, if he goes blink, stargate etc, you're golden
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So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection?
provide a little more information. what to you is considered an early robo + observer? like a 1 gate robo kinda early? and in what match up? the match up matters because say you're playing pvt, if you scout the possibility of a banshee opening then something like 2 gate robo or something might be a good idea. but if you're playing something like pvp, going for something like a 2 gate robo might get you killed because the current metagame still has 4gates being very popular.
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On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote:
I disagree
Thank you for enlightening us on why you disagree, your post now has shined valuable information on why I should get Cloaked units. Knowing you personally however, I do know that you love your Dark Templars.
Ghosts are the only unit I would get Cloaking for for a non-specific timing, simply because you can just get so lucky sometimes, Cloak and just EMP their entire army like Thorzain did to MC. The DT's price obviously is due to its permanent cloaking, and usually it pays off (in late game that is) because the force Scans, Overseers, and static defense helps justify its cost.
Banshee cloaking, in my opinion, needs to pay off as it is a pretty expensive upgrade considering most of the time you are only on one base while getting it. As Tastosis pointed out in MMA vs Ryung on Metalopolis (game 2 I think), had MMA lost that Banshee while getting Cloak, he would have been literally fucked for the rest of the game with almost no chance of winning.
So overall, Banshee Cloak is the only upgrade I would hesitate on, as you have to ask yourself how much you are dedicating to it and whether you can pull it off or not.
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As a terran player I find that vs protoss and zerg, that banshees into fast expand is the best way to get map control and land that fast expand. Practically, you don't have to get those siege tanks with siege tech to be able to get out of your base, if protoss or zerg pressures you.
And always, on map locations such as Metalopolis,Shattered Temple close by air or Scrap Station banshees are so strong, cloaked are even better.
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On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote:
I disagree
If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now.
Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg.
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On June 19 2011 18:35 MindRush wrote:
As a terran player I find that vs protoss and zerg, that banshees into fast expand is the best way to get map control and land that fast expand. Practically, you don't have to get those siege tanks with siege tech to be able to get out of your base, if protoss or zerg pressures you.
And always, on map locations such as Metalopolis,Shattered Temple close by air or Scrap Station banshees are so strong, cloaked are even better.
I'd agree with you with those maps. But otherwise I feel like that could have its risks especially with protoss if your opponent has stalkers. I guess it really comes down to numbers and if you have that cannon by your minerals or an observer though so in any case I'd agree with you.
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On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote:If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg.
I think mods just don't care cuz this thread is pretty dumb.
Cloaked units have their place in this game. If you can't use them, well that sucks for you.
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On June 19 2011 18:24 Blackspell wrote:So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection?
There are very few absolutes in the game. What you do should be informed by your scouting. But getting an early robo and observer is not very safe in PvP against competent players, you will die much more to 4gates than you will blind counter DTs.
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On June 19 2011 18:43 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote:On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote:
I disagree If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg. I think mods just don't care cuz this thread is pretty dumb. Cloaked units have their place in this game. If you can't use them, well that sucks for you.
God for fucks sake why is the thread dumb? I didn't put it in the strategy section for a reason, I corrected myself for making a couple stupid statements. I'm a still learning player who turned to the forums to understand how to use cloaked units better. Give me a break!
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On June 19 2011 18:44 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 18:24 Blackspell wrote:So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection? There are very few absolutes in the game. What you do should be informed by your scouting. But getting an early robo and observer is not very safe in PvP against competent players, you will die much more to 4gates than you will blind counter DTs.
That makes sense. I guess I'm basing a lot of what I'm saying off of hypothetical scenarios and the fact that my standard build is 3gate + robo
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One DT alone can decide matches... So obviously they are usefull and I use them alot especially as a opener against Terran. Even more before the removal of the Khaydarian Amulett with transition into high templars...
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On June 19 2011 17:38 Blackspell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 17:30 Chibithor wrote:
If burrow banelings count, they're pretty good. Otherwise I've found limited use for it. Lings on expands and roach burrow movement on limited occasions.
But yeah, your problem seems to be that you want to rush for cloak to catch your opponent off-guard to instawin, in which case any detection does indeed deter it completely. In lategame harassment or otherwise though (Cloak ghosts to get off good EMPs) it's good. Well that's pretty much my case but not necessarily to instawin, just to apply some early harassment on my opponents workers.
Sure, but if there's an early DT in your opponent's base and he doesn't have detection, it's not just harassment you're getting done, there's nothing the opponent can do. If there however is detection, you shouldn't be able to get much done. The only case where you'll only get some harassment done is if they have detection coming very soon, otherwise it'll just work well or not at all, not taking micro into account. It's how most rushes like that work, they rely on their opponent not being prepared for it. If you don't want it to happen you just can't do builds like that.
On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote:If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg.
Like these people? Why single one out.
On June 19 2011 17:50 arterian wrote:
every game if i can
On June 19 2011 17:14 EchoZ wrote:
I love DTs.
On June 19 2011 18:06 Dice17 wrote:
disagree
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i think burrowed baneling now count as a cloacked unit :p
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I go 4 blue flame hellion drop into banshee in TvT, i never use cloaked units in any other matchup though.
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I use dt in about 20% of my games and 50-70% of the games that get into late game if not even more... they are so versatile, really useful unit imo, not to mention observers that i use even more 
On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote:If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg.
This thread contained very little information... just some guy say : I think x isn't good, cost to much, so its not like he actually need to bother to post a serious answer, tl mods treat everyone alike... also i don't think many of them are even awake atm.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
I use them alot. Never rush them tho, coz it's a gamble and a huge investment in the early game. But mid game, when you have 2base at least and well developed economy, it's nice to punish your opponent for not having detection and force him to do so. I play random - as toss I use a few observers - keep one outside opponents natural and one patroling the flight zone outside the tower range. DT's as harassing units or to devide attantion. As terran - banshees mostly against zergs to harass and sometimes against T to deal with tanks. Ghosts as cloak-flank-emp against toss and zerg and rarely nuke drops. And if you consider burrowed units as cloaked - burrowed and infestors all the time.
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aside from observers which obviously I use a ton because they are sick I guess I get DT's like 1 outa every 5-6 games maybe.
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I wish zerg could have a unit to punish the lack of detection sometimes.
I miss Lurker rush. :<
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I love massing DT's on my off account. Charge zealot wit mass dt is sick. Plus most ppl that i play on that account don't even realize that there are dts attacking with my zealots until it is too late.
Making a bunch of dts and saying SURPRISE IT's DT TIME is my favorite thing to do in pvz and pvt. But in pvp i rush straight to the dt because i suck at protoss.
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EPT
