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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
Anyone care to disagree? EDIT: I apologize if my OP was a little to frank or absurd. My statement is my own experience and I'm merely trying to understand how higher ranked players utilize cloaked units. I'm here to learn. Also I stand corrected in using the term dimwitted, It was out of place considering that players don't necessarily put down detection in early game. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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NeXiLe
Canada262 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
Oh wait, am I being too rash? There's a reason you're terrible with cloaked units, you lack the expertise, strategy, and mechanics in order to pull off a correctly planned harassment through cloaked units. Also, have you ever heard of, although this is a BW reference, the Sair/DT build. When Bisu first came out with it (renovated it), he was considered the Revolutionist. Cloaked units are terrible on their own, but a wonderful compliment to a well-built army and multitasking. Also, I feel I won't devote any more time to this as a topic such as this was not given much thought before being posted and doesn't deserve thought-out responses. I hope you have an epiphany where you become cognizant of your blatant fallacy. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
You're thinking about it the wrong way. Cloaked units do not win you the game outright, they're like Mutas in that regard. They allow you to pressure and annoy your opponent, which indirectly forces mistakes. EDIT: typo | ||
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
Also DT drops are really good against terran, they are good to have in an army as well, most people don't notice if there are like 5-10 DTs in your army, and you can blink and snipe overseers. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
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sevia
United States954 Posts
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:02 Blackspell wrote: For me its just a huge waste of minerals. I was playing around with some early DT builds tonight which only ended up with a fews loses. Ghosts aside It just seems that unless you're dimwitted at this point and don't throw down either a cannon or a turret or spawn an overseer, cloaked or burrowed units should be pretty much on the back burner. Anyone care to disagree? I don't get it. Clearly pro players use cloaked units, yet you managed to come to the conclusion that they suck based off a few games? Care to elaborate how you came to the conclusion? | ||
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
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NeXiLe
Canada262 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:10 Blackspell wrote: I'm not only using cloaked units. Thats imbecilic. I'm merely suggesting that its hard to pull off an early DT harass. Thread title is slightly misleading then imo :x | ||
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Teras
Great Britain103 Posts
Late game any matchup they're brilliant for warping in 3 all rallied to different expos (there's a reason Zerg now build 1 spore and 1 spine in their mineral lines you know). DT's are pretty situational but it seems you're purposefully shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't using them. | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:14 Chicane wrote: I don't get it. Clearly pro players use cloaked units, yet you managed to come to the conclusion that they suck based off a few games? Care to elaborate how you came to the conclusion? I never said the sucked. I said they should be placed on the back burner. Like they shouldn't be a primary concern. | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:15 NeXiLe wrote: Thread title is slightly misleading then imo :x I was referring to his statement about what I said in the post. My question remains how often do you find yourself using cloaked units in matches. | ||
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Deleted_143
Australia256 Posts
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cheeseplease
Korea (South)5 Posts
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Navillus
United States1188 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:10 Blackspell wrote: I'm not only using cloaked units. Thats imbecilic. I'm merely suggesting that its hard to pull off an early DT harass. Yes, yes it is hard to pull off, welcome to Starcraft, if you want to ever get any good you will need to do things that are hard to pull off... | ||
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DAofCanada
Canada55 Posts
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
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Navillus
United States1188 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:26 Blackspell wrote: Well I'm here to learn. Thats the only reason I put up the thread not to make an incorrect statement that would piss off the regulars here. Then why did you phrase the OP as a silly statement (in which you called people dimwitted) then ask if anyone "cares to disagree"? | ||
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Chibithor
Brazil514 Posts
But yeah, your problem seems to be that you want to rush for cloak to catch your opponent off-guard to instawin, in which case any detection does indeed deter it completely. In lategame harassment or otherwise though (Cloak ghosts to get off good EMPs) it's good. | ||
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iSometric
2221 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:10 Blackspell wrote: I'm not only using cloaked units. Thats imbecilic. I'm merely suggesting that its hard to pull off an early DT harass. Title says cloaked units | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:28 Navillus wrote: Then why did you phrase the OP as a silly statement (in which you called people dimwitted) then ask if anyone "cares to disagree"? I never directly called anyone dimwitted. Is it not obvious to have some sort of detection? And the reason I asked if anyone cared to disagree is to hear what others had to say.... sooo I could learn.. Forgive me for not just blatantly saying "I suck with cloaked units anyone care to teach me how to be good at starcraft?" | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:30 Chibithor wrote: If burrow banelings count, they're pretty good. Otherwise I've found limited use for it. Lings on expands and roach burrow movement on limited occasions. But yeah, your problem seems to be that you want to rush for cloak to catch your opponent off-guard to instawin, in which case any detection does indeed deter it completely. In lategame harassment or otherwise though (Cloak ghosts to get off good EMPs) it's good. Well that's pretty much my case but not necessarily to instawin, just to apply some early harassment on my opponents workers. | ||
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Navillus
United States1188 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:33 Blackspell wrote: I never directly called anyone dimwitted. Is it not obvious to have some sort of detection? And the reason I asked if anyone cared to disagree is hear what others had to say.... sooo I could learn.. Forgive me for not just blatantly saying "I suck with cloaked units anyone care to teach me how to be good at starcraft?" Well I just saw a VOD of Millenium Tarson losing to HuK's DT build so either you know something he doesn't or you're wrong. As to saying "I suck with cloaked units anyone care to teach me how to be good at starcraft?", that probably would have worked better. But to actually using cloaked units, well I don't know how you expect any sort of useful advice without posting a replay, build, or giving any idea as to what you're doing and losing against. If you are actually really low level though I would say cloaked units should be the last thing on your mind, just use standard builds and get better macro/micro/mechanics until diamond at least because before that your opponents can waste resources on detection without serious loss so you will lose if you rely on cloaked units. At high diamond and especially masters no one will just randomly get detection because it's a waste that could easily lose them a game. | ||
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
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blah_blah
346 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:33 Blackspell wrote:Is it not obvious to have some sort of detection? If you rush to detection you hurt your army size and worker count, so most builds get detection slower than the fastest possible DT/Banshee rushes hit at. If you scout something that is 'obviously' not a rush to cloaked units then you can delay getting detection a long time. It sounds like you just play at a very low level where players blindly get cannons and your DTs run into them and die; you should scout this and respond accordingly (i.e., expand, not build DTs). | ||
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Pamposek
Czech Republic56 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:02 Blackspell wrote: For me its just a huge waste of minerals. I was playing around with some early DT builds tonight which only ended up with a fews loses. Ghosts aside It just seems that unless you're dimwitted at this point and don't throw down either a cannon or a turret or spawn an overseer, cloaked or burrowed units should be pretty much on the back burner. Anyone care to disagree? Which league are you? Bronze? Because cloaked units are ... forcing to have some sort of detection (for example zerg will build spores at every expansion and even after that, warping 4 DTs will not save him at all, because 4 DTs will just snipe spore and then rest of stuff ...) Cloaked units as suplements to main army are just ebil, because when you don't notice, they will rip apart other army etc ... Looks like you are using cloaked units as your main army, not the way they are supposed to be used ... cheeser | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:47 Pamposek wrote: Which league are you? Bronze? Because cloaked units are ... forcing to have some sort of detection (for example zerg will build spores at every expansion and even after that, warping 4 DTs will not save him at all, because 4 DTs will just snipe spore and then rest of stuff ...) Cloaked units as suplements to main army are just ebil, because when you don't notice, they will rip apart other army etc ... Looks like you are using cloaked units as your main army, not the way they are supposed to be used ... cheeser Well if you went back and read some other posts before posting yourself, I already stated that I do not only use cloaked units, I was only playing around with an early DT build and that I used it to apply early harassment on my opponent. | ||
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:46 blah_blah wrote: If you rush to detection you hurt your army size and worker count, so most builds get detection slower than the fastest possible DT/Banshee rushes hit at. If you scout something that is 'obviously' not a rush to cloaked units then you can delay getting detection a long time. It sounds like you just play at a very low level where players blindly get cannons and your DTs run into them and die; you should scout this and respond accordingly (i.e., expand, not build DTs). Okay my OP aside, and please correct me if I'm wrong because again I'm here to learn, lets say strictly PvP. I do some sort of DT rush to apply some early pressure and my opponent has an observer. I wouldn't say that a RF or an observer would hurt an army size or worker count right? | ||
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Dice17
United States520 Posts
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Luoson
New Zealand153 Posts
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SolidSnoopy
United States21 Posts
Okay my OP aside, and please correct me if I'm wrong because again I'm here to learn, lets say strictly PvP. I do some sort of DT rush to apply some early pressure and my opponent has an observer. I wouldn't say that a RF or an observer would hurt an army size or worker count right? you hafta think of each matchup in terms of what you can scout and what your opponent is doing. you shouldnt just say things like "well if i'm going to dt rush and he has a robo and obs out already then it would be bad." if you scout that your opponent will have early detection, obviously dont try to dt rush him. if you scout that your opponent is being greedy then a dt rush can pay off. you cant cater one build to different situations | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:00 Blackspell wrote: Okay my OP aside, and please correct me if I'm wrong because again I'm here to learn, lets say strictly PvP. I do some sort of DT rush to apply some early pressure and my opponent has an observer. I wouldn't say that a RF or an observer would hurt an army size or worker count right? Sure it does. If your opponent goes fast robo + observer first blindly then he will die if you went for a 4gate or blink stalkers. It's 225 minerals and 175 gas spent when your opponent is throwing all their money into units. | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:19 blah_blah wrote: Sure it does. If your opponent goes fast robo + observer first blindly then he will die if you went for a 4gate or blink stalkers. It's 225 minerals and 175 gas spent when your opponent is throwing all their money into units. So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection? | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
LOL. Burrowed roach/burrowed infestor can be really good, but doesn't actually count as cloaked in my mind. DTs are absurdly good, in army, or late game is best.... | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:17 SolidSnoopy wrote: you hafta think of each matchup in terms of what you can scout and what your opponent is doing. you shouldnt just say things like "well if i'm going to dt rush and he has a robo and obs out already then it would be bad." if you scout that your opponent will have early detection, obviously dont try to dt rush him. if you scout that your opponent is being greedy then a dt rush can pay off. you cant cater one build to different situations Well it doesn't necessarily have to come down to just that. I can scout with a probe, interrupt what he is doing, and try to catch him off guard with an early DT harass and not know he has a robo in the works while doing so. | ||
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Neino
Norway295 Posts
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SolidSnoopy
United States21 Posts
So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection? provide a little more information. what to you is considered an early robo + observer? like a 1 gate robo kinda early? and in what match up? the match up matters because say you're playing pvt, if you scout the possibility of a banshee opening then something like 2 gate robo or something might be a good idea. but if you're playing something like pvp, going for something like a 2 gate robo might get you killed because the current metagame still has 4gates being very popular. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote: I disagree Thank you for enlightening us on why you disagree, your post now has shined valuable information on why I should get Cloaked units. Knowing you personally however, I do know that you love your Dark Templars. Ghosts are the only unit I would get Cloaking for for a non-specific timing, simply because you can just get so lucky sometimes, Cloak and just EMP their entire army like Thorzain did to MC. The DT's price obviously is due to its permanent cloaking, and usually it pays off (in late game that is) because the force Scans, Overseers, and static defense helps justify its cost. Banshee cloaking, in my opinion, needs to pay off as it is a pretty expensive upgrade considering most of the time you are only on one base while getting it. As Tastosis pointed out in MMA vs Ryung on Metalopolis (game 2 I think), had MMA lost that Banshee while getting Cloak, he would have been literally fucked for the rest of the game with almost no chance of winning. So overall, Banshee Cloak is the only upgrade I would hesitate on, as you have to ask yourself how much you are dedicating to it and whether you can pull it off or not. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
And always, on map locations such as Metalopolis,Shattered Temple close by air or Scrap Station banshees are so strong, cloaked are even better. | ||
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote: I disagree If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg. | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:35 MindRush wrote: As a terran player I find that vs protoss and zerg, that banshees into fast expand is the best way to get map control and land that fast expand. Practically, you don't have to get those siege tanks with siege tech to be able to get out of your base, if protoss or zerg pressures you. And always, on map locations such as Metalopolis,Shattered Temple close by air or Scrap Station banshees are so strong, cloaked are even better. I'd agree with you with those maps. But otherwise I feel like that could have its risks especially with protoss if your opponent has stalkers. I guess it really comes down to numbers and if you have that cannon by your minerals or an observer though so in any case I'd agree with you. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote: If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg. I think mods just don't care cuz this thread is pretty dumb. Cloaked units have their place in this game. If you can't use them, well that sucks for you. | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:24 Blackspell wrote:So as a protoss player, it would be incorrect for me to have an early robo + observer to scout and, if the need arises, have it for detection? There are very few absolutes in the game. What you do should be informed by your scouting. But getting an early robo and observer is not very safe in PvP against competent players, you will die much more to 4gates than you will blind counter DTs. | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:43 tuestresfat wrote: I think mods just don't care cuz this thread is pretty dumb. Cloaked units have their place in this game. If you can't use them, well that sucks for you. God for fucks sake why is the thread dumb? I didn't put it in the strategy section for a reason, I corrected myself for making a couple stupid statements. I'm a still learning player who turned to the forums to understand how to use cloaked units better. Give me a break! | ||
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Blackspell
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:44 blah_blah wrote: There are very few absolutes in the game. What you do should be informed by your scouting. But getting an early robo and observer is not very safe in PvP against competent players, you will die much more to 4gates than you will blind counter DTs. That makes sense. I guess I'm basing a lot of what I'm saying off of hypothetical scenarios and the fact that my standard build is 3gate + robo | ||
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roboter
Germany48 Posts
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Chibithor
Brazil514 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:38 Blackspell wrote: Well that's pretty much my case but not necessarily to instawin, just to apply some early harassment on my opponents workers. Sure, but if there's an early DT in your opponent's base and he doesn't have detection, it's not just harassment you're getting done, there's nothing the opponent can do. If there however is detection, you shouldn't be able to get much done. The only case where you'll only get some harassment done is if they have detection coming very soon, otherwise it'll just work well or not at all, not taking micro into account. It's how most rushes like that work, they rely on their opponent not being prepared for it. If you don't want it to happen you just can't do builds like that. On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote: If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg. Like these people? Why single one out. On June 19 2011 17:50 arterian wrote: every game if i can On June 19 2011 17:14 EchoZ wrote: I love DTs. On June 19 2011 18:06 Dice17 wrote: disagree | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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AcesAnoka
Belgium262 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
 On June 19 2011 18:42 Qzy wrote: If it didn't say ROOT in front of your nick, you would be pretty much temp or perm banned by now. Anyhow - DTs are nice vs. zerg. This thread contained very little information... just some guy say : I think x isn't good, cost to much, so its not like he actually need to bother to post a serious answer, tl mods treat everyone alike... also i don't think many of them are even awake atm. | ||
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
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LostBLuE
Canada188 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I miss Lurker rush. :< | ||
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Monox1de
United States101 Posts
Making a bunch of dts and saying SURPRISE IT's DT TIME is my favorite thing to do in pvz and pvt. But in pvp i rush straight to the dt because i suck at protoss. | ||
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On June 19 2011 17:04 ROOTFayth wrote: I disagree This. Despite the high costs cloak pushes the opponent to get detection, whether static or unit oriented and a late game cloaked tech switch can catch any skill of player off guard. After sniping overseers and observers cloaked ghosts make a HUGE impact tvz and tvp, the extra control you are allowed to have over your snipes and emps can make a massive difference in the game outcome. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Other then that not using dts as i prefer warp prism harass (cheaper + more effectiv). But i like cloaked banshees (getting cloak only lategame though) and ghosts or burrow | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
The map control they can give you is amazing. However, I don't buy the "you force him to get detection" argument. At its cheapest, and assuming you've already got Twilight Council, you spend 375 gas just to get one DT out on the field, and 125 for each successive one. You really need multiple to be able to do anything at all. In turn, that DT might force several spore crawlers ... which cost only minerals. 75 (125 if you include the cost of the drone) for Zerg, or 100 for Terran. Even if you force 5 turrets/spores in that one base - which is a gross overreaction - you're exchanging 625/500 minerals for 375 gas. In this case, gas is a lot more valuable resource, especially as Protoss. With this in mind, I firmly believe that if you get DT's and fail to do any gas-intensive damage with them, you are behind. You really just need to take out a tech structure or addon or something, else you're wasting one of your most precious resources to force Terran to waste their most plentiful one. Lategame is a different story, of course. The purpose of DT's shifts from trying to catch a player without detection to trying to get a player to make mistakes in multitasking. The investment of a Shrine and several DT's, even if you don't get any gas damage done, is well worth it to make an opponent have to defend 3-4 locations at once. | ||
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On June 19 2011 18:45 Blackspell wrote: God for fucks sake why is the thread dumb? I didn't put it in the strategy section for a reason, I corrected myself for making a couple stupid statements. I'm a still learning player who turned to the forums to understand how to use cloaked units better. Give me a break! Well look at the type of responses you are getting and tell me it's not a dumb thread. Yes, perhaps you're just seeking advice, trying to improve your play. If that is the case, you should be more cautious on how you choose to express yourself because most people just think you're a troll. That's why nobody has offered you specific, applicable, or useful information. It has more or less been: "No. You're wrong I disagree completely.", "Dt's are cool yo". We don't say more than that because we feel you're just wasting our time. | ||
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DRAM
United Kingdom33 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
Zealot/dt/ht drops are so good late game vT and vZ. | ||
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oblong
United States86 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Except the multitudes of cloaked banshees and DTs used against me. Rarely a cloaked ghost though. | ||
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GLLvz
Norway122 Posts
so, id say Enough  | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
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dartoo
India2889 Posts
My goto build against protoss is dt rush, I use them for mid game harass against terran, along with the warp prism(not a big fan of colossi,prefer templars). And dts against zerg are so awesome, especially you send one to an expansion, while you pressure, and forget about him, and suddenly he's like boss..there's nothing left to kill here. And for terrans, builds taht use the banshee are the ones that I have a lot of problems with. Especially late game they are kinda tough to deal with, because you need to storm them or have some air(when in mass). | ||
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Firesilver
United Kingdom1190 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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Benkestok
Denmark63 Posts
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On June 19 2011 19:24 Noocta wrote: I wish zerg could have a unit to punish the lack of detection sometimes. I miss Lurker rush. :< I honestly, in every god damn way, hope you are not kidding. | ||
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