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I agree LoL has very low skill cap. In my third game in LoL felt I already was skill capped.
I'm master league player in SC2 so might be that.
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On June 19 2011 02:03 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 01:58 Proxity wrote:
The thing is a lot of people are missing.
League of Legends is not balanced, and can be swayed by things outside of player skil... SC2 is not balanced either, and can also be swayed by things outside of player skill. You can't really make a straight comparison of the games. One is a teamgame, the other is not. One is a RTS, the other is not. and thats just the top of the iceberg.
You make that statement as if it is fact. BW wasn't balanced either. Countless interviews with many progamers and prominent Starcraft figures have repeated the same thing just said. But to suggest that player skill/strategies, the player themselves, are not the reason for all wins in tournaments, you would have to be more specific, and do a case by case scenario. Sometimes there are build order wins, and blind counters, but isn't that the fault of the victim for not choosing or constructing a better more standard build order that isn't as vulnerable to that? When a terran 1 rax expands against a 1-1-1 terran and he loses, isn't it the fault of the greedy player for being so susceptible to tech plays like that?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On June 19 2011 02:22 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 02:03 Kipsate wrote:On June 19 2011 01:58 Proxity wrote:
The thing is a lot of people are missing.
League of Legends is not balanced, and can be swayed by things outside of player skil... SC2 is not balanced either, and can also be swayed by things outside of player skill. You can't really make a straight comparison of the games. One is a teamgame, the other is not. One is a RTS, the other is not. and thats just the top of the iceberg. You make that statement as if it is fact. BW wasn't balanced either. Countless interviews with many progamers and prominent Starcraft figures have repeated the same thing just said. But to suggest that player skill/strategies, the player themselves, are not the reason for all wins in tournaments, you would have to be more specific, and do a case by case scenario. Sometimes there are build order wins, and blind counters, but isn't that the fault of the victim for not choosing or constructing a better more standard build order that isn't as vulnerable to that? When a terran 1 rax expands against a 1-1-1 terran and he loses, isn't it the fault of the greedy player for being so susceptible to tech plays like that?
Exactly, BW wasn't balanced either, on ALL games there can be things which can be swayed outside of the players their skill. To make such a statement of League of Legends is stupid and means nothing.
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On June 19 2011 02:18 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 01:34 BlueBird. wrote:On June 19 2011 01:29 Greem wrote:On June 19 2011 01:09 Earll wrote:Kind of annoys me that everyone is calling LoL Casual. What does that even mean? How does one qualify a game as 'casual'? Because they removed some of the more annoying\harder to control mechanics from Dota, such as denying, LoL is suddenly a casual game and not worthy of the hardened e-sports core? I Would actually goes as far as to say by my definition of casual, Starcraft (2) is a lot more geared towards casual, and more 'casual' friendly, than LoL. Not that that is a bad thing, it just is what it is. To learn a MOBA/Dota game like LoL and get past the level of complete "WTF I have no idea what just happened" you basically need to learn all the heroes, and all their 4 abilities + 1 passive, and there are like what 50+ heroes and a ton of items, so getting over the initial learning curve for LoL is a lot harder than Sc2 where you need to know the fewer and simpler units. Obviously Sc2 has probably more depth strategically, and has like a looooooooooooooooooooottttttttt more room in terms of mechanics, but that does not make LoL casual friendly. Moba games are always very casual unfriendly in my opinion because of the way the community and the games work, and any new player is flamed and wished death upon for every game they enter. That being said, LoL is still far from any form players performing perfectly, or any form of skill cap, and as other casual friendlygames ( take WoW Arena as an example) that tons of esports veterans flame, and throw away as 'jokes' because they are not as mechanically challenging as an FPS or a RTS, still will Never ever ever have any lone/single player reaching the 'skill cap' always playing perfectly and never making a mistake. Add that to the fact that this is not a single playing game, but the most important part of it is team play not the performance of a single player, and the "skillcap" is even more impossible to reach. Looking at the games casted today, all of these players are the top of the LoL community basically, many of which practice several hours a day (Like several.) and there are still tons of mistakes being made, and some teams simply dominate others because they are better, even though they are both good teams\players. So are you saying absolutely all of the LoL players are just worse overall gamers than Starcraft players, and if a half decent starcraft player decided to move to LoL he would just instantly crush face and become the top of all brackets and tournaments? If this is the case then why dont 'you' just start A LoL team and dominate the world, I mean dreamhack is just 1 event\tournament and it has a 100k(?) prizepool. On June 19 2011 01:08 Nqsty wrote:
Its very difficult to view high level play in LoL due to the design's limitations, no replays, VoDs etc; hence the second everyone can grab some insight on how high level matchs work, they jump on it, I myself have had the stream on all day.
Compare that to SC2 where no-one gives a sh*t about watching live because you can get all the replays and/or commentaries the next day.
Boom, there's your 150k viewers.
Just throwing out a guess here but i think probably like 70-80+% of the people watching the streams are watching them more for entertainment value than to get insight on how high level matchs works (e.g more educational value), no? I call the game casual when to learn it and be able to compete in high level you'll need around a week or even few days. I would qualify LoL as one of those games. For example in SC2 in 1 week you'd still be in bronze league, even after month of playing you won't pass diamond level, its takes time, patience and a lot of practice. I got nothing against LoL , or any other game, if you like it, go play it. You simply cannot compare the difficulty of SC2 to LoL, where you control a unit with 4 abilities i mean , do you really need to hear why ? "Sc2 has probably more depth strategically" Probably ? It definitively got more depth, its RTS for a reason. As i said if you like the game , go ahead play it.But comparing LoL and SC2 its like comparing chess and checkers. On the other hand i don't really care if numbers are real, i'd like to see DH total numbers from all the stream from all the games, because in the end that what matters for eSports to continue to grow. I agree with you that SC2 is much more competitive and has a higher skill cap, but to say ANY game with even a tiny competitive scene or pitiful competitive scene takes only a few days to be at a top level at is an ignorant statement, LoL and SC2 is a game played by humans, and humans error, the goal of both games is to make the least amount of errors, both games theoretical skill caps can not be reached, if I play a game all the time and practice with my team mates, and you play for a week, and I actually practice and discuss the game, and you just show up after a week of play... yeah, there is a reason korean players consistently do better than foreigners in the starcraft scene, Practice makes perfect.... The players playing right now as we post on this forum discussing this issue are playing for 50,000 dollars, to play a video game, with 150,000 people watching them play.. a video game. If it's so easy why are you not there winning that money and getting all that attention. It was a paid trip for those that qualified, not really any excuses you can make... How is that an ignorant statement ? Note that i say high level, lets say Diamond in SC2, compare the time you need to reach Diamond in SC2 to LoL equivalent of that if that make more sense to you. I glad that you like the game you play, that's the reason you play it in the first place. But going as war as comparing SC2 to it, its as you well sad - ignorant. Also for the name of the thread SC2 vs eSport is never the case, SC2 is with eSports.
You compared the games not me.. The game is a team game, I don't think people realize what goes into a team game without ever playing one competitively. I have played quite a few MLG Halo events and tons of local video game events with team mates, and they are not the joke that most people here seem to think they are, and neither is LoL. LoL does not take the mechanics SC2 or SCBW does, it requires a different unique skillset and revolves around teamwork, leadership, positioning, basic mechanics, quick reaction time and thinking, etc etc. The game does not take 3 days to master like you think it does, Like I said that's a ridiculously ignorant thing to say and I stand by it, it will never be mastered, just like no competitive game has been mastered, please go re-read my post not going to go over the same simple concepts. Why are you not in this top level match I'm watching right now if it's so easy for you, like I said qualified players got their trip paid for, you really don't have an excuse to not be playing for this 50 grand right now.
It's for the good of e-sports, I'm not saying League of Legends is the better game, the harder game or the game with the higher skillcap, I'm just defending League of Legends from being called the joke your saying it is, stop coming in here and posting that ridiculous stuff that you've been posting, maybe think a little more.
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People saying it is boring are ignoring the fact that there is like 2-3 times more people watching LoL than there is sc2 right now. And people who say it is easy to reach the skillcap in LoL are damaged, no human will become skillcapped in LoL, nor will any human ever become skillcapped in Starcraft 2, so for humans the skillcap for both is essentially unlimited and there will always be room for improvement for any player.
The game is also reasonably balanced and non random, in the way that the team that plays better overall is very likely to win. The heroes are not balanced against each other, but thats like saying the units are not balanced against eachother in Sc2 (e.g colossi > marines = sc2 is imbalanced) As a lot of the game revolves around picking heroes, countering eachother and finding a good team comp, in the way that in sc2 finding the right mix of units is important. All good LoL players can play lots of heroes so their team has a versatile composition.
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On June 19 2011 02:29 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 02:18 Greem wrote:On June 19 2011 01:34 BlueBird. wrote:On June 19 2011 01:29 Greem wrote:On June 19 2011 01:09 Earll wrote:Kind of annoys me that everyone is calling LoL Casual. What does that even mean? How does one qualify a game as 'casual'? Because they removed some of the more annoying\harder to control mechanics from Dota, such as denying, LoL is suddenly a casual game and not worthy of the hardened e-sports core? I Would actually goes as far as to say by my definition of casual, Starcraft (2) is a lot more geared towards casual, and more 'casual' friendly, than LoL. Not that that is a bad thing, it just is what it is. To learn a MOBA/Dota game like LoL and get past the level of complete "WTF I have no idea what just happened" you basically need to learn all the heroes, and all their 4 abilities + 1 passive, and there are like what 50+ heroes and a ton of items, so getting over the initial learning curve for LoL is a lot harder than Sc2 where you need to know the fewer and simpler units. Obviously Sc2 has probably more depth strategically, and has like a looooooooooooooooooooottttttttt more room in terms of mechanics, but that does not make LoL casual friendly. Moba games are always very casual unfriendly in my opinion because of the way the community and the games work, and any new player is flamed and wished death upon for every game they enter. That being said, LoL is still far from any form players performing perfectly, or any form of skill cap, and as other casual friendlygames ( take WoW Arena as an example) that tons of esports veterans flame, and throw away as 'jokes' because they are not as mechanically challenging as an FPS or a RTS, still will Never ever ever have any lone/single player reaching the 'skill cap' always playing perfectly and never making a mistake. Add that to the fact that this is not a single playing game, but the most important part of it is team play not the performance of a single player, and the "skillcap" is even more impossible to reach. Looking at the games casted today, all of these players are the top of the LoL community basically, many of which practice several hours a day (Like several.) and there are still tons of mistakes being made, and some teams simply dominate others because they are better, even though they are both good teams\players. So are you saying absolutely all of the LoL players are just worse overall gamers than Starcraft players, and if a half decent starcraft player decided to move to LoL he would just instantly crush face and become the top of all brackets and tournaments? If this is the case then why dont 'you' just start A LoL team and dominate the world, I mean dreamhack is just 1 event\tournament and it has a 100k(?) prizepool. On June 19 2011 01:08 Nqsty wrote:
Its very difficult to view high level play in LoL due to the design's limitations, no replays, VoDs etc; hence the second everyone can grab some insight on how high level matchs work, they jump on it, I myself have had the stream on all day.
Compare that to SC2 where no-one gives a sh*t about watching live because you can get all the replays and/or commentaries the next day.
Boom, there's your 150k viewers.
Just throwing out a guess here but i think probably like 70-80+% of the people watching the streams are watching them more for entertainment value than to get insight on how high level matchs works (e.g more educational value), no? I call the game casual when to learn it and be able to compete in high level you'll need around a week or even few days. I would qualify LoL as one of those games. For example in SC2 in 1 week you'd still be in bronze league, even after month of playing you won't pass diamond level, its takes time, patience and a lot of practice. I got nothing against LoL , or any other game, if you like it, go play it. You simply cannot compare the difficulty of SC2 to LoL, where you control a unit with 4 abilities i mean , do you really need to hear why ? "Sc2 has probably more depth strategically" Probably ? It definitively got more depth, its RTS for a reason. As i said if you like the game , go ahead play it.But comparing LoL and SC2 its like comparing chess and checkers. On the other hand i don't really care if numbers are real, i'd like to see DH total numbers from all the stream from all the games, because in the end that what matters for eSports to continue to grow. I agree with you that SC2 is much more competitive and has a higher skill cap, but to say ANY game with even a tiny competitive scene or pitiful competitive scene takes only a few days to be at a top level at is an ignorant statement, LoL and SC2 is a game played by humans, and humans error, the goal of both games is to make the least amount of errors, both games theoretical skill caps can not be reached, if I play a game all the time and practice with my team mates, and you play for a week, and I actually practice and discuss the game, and you just show up after a week of play... yeah, there is a reason korean players consistently do better than foreigners in the starcraft scene, Practice makes perfect.... The players playing right now as we post on this forum discussing this issue are playing for 50,000 dollars, to play a video game, with 150,000 people watching them play.. a video game. If it's so easy why are you not there winning that money and getting all that attention. It was a paid trip for those that qualified, not really any excuses you can make... How is that an ignorant statement ? Note that i say high level, lets say Diamond in SC2, compare the time you need to reach Diamond in SC2 to LoL equivalent of that if that make more sense to you. I glad that you like the game you play, that's the reason you play it in the first place. But going as war as comparing SC2 to it, its as you well sad - ignorant. Also for the name of the thread SC2 vs eSport is never the case, SC2 is with eSports. You compared the games not me.. The game is a team game, I don't think people realize what goes into a team game without ever playing one competitively. I have played quite a few MLG Halo events and tons of local video game events with team mates, and they are not the joke that most people here seem to think they are, and neither is LoL. LoL does not take the mechanics SC2 or SCBW does, it requires a different unique skillset and revolves around teamwork, leadership, positioning, basic mechanics, quick reaction time and thinking, etc etc. The game does not take 3 days to master like you think it does, Like I said that's a ridiculously ignorant thing to say and I stand by it, it will never be mastered, just like no competitive game has been mastered, please go re-read my post not going to go over the same simple concepts. Why are you not in this top level match I'm watching right now if it's so easy for you, like I said qualified players got their trip paid for, you really don't have an excuse to not be playing for this 50 grand right now. It's for the good of e-sports, I'm not saying League of Legends is the better game, stop coming in here and posting that ridiculous stuff that you've been posting, maybe think a little more.
I think you didn't read my answers, since you saying i compared the games, i stated that you cannot compare this 2 games. You also stated that i said it takes 3 days to master the game, while i said it will take probably a week of few days to be a high level , Diamond level LoL equivalent. So what exactly is a point you trying to prove while saying things i didn't say ?
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Diamond level in SC2 is not high level so I'm just going to take your statements with a grain of salt, it took me an extremely short time to get to Diamond in SC2 with very little actual rts experience(I watched bw, not played). I'm not even sure what the equivalent would be, but I would say it would be about an equal amount of time at least for me.
Also I confused your comparing chess and checkers statement, with what people actually do, and what people actually do is compare chess to checkers. So I figured you were in the chess >>>>>>>>> checkers camp. In this scenario we are discussing I do not consider SC2 to be Chess too League of Legend's checkers.
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On June 19 2011 02:07 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 02:01 chenchen wrote:On June 19 2011 01:33 Legatus Lanius wrote:On June 19 2011 01:21 InvXXVII wrote:On June 18 2011 18:56 GizmoPT wrote:
Its a free and easier game off course it will attract more people than starcraft xD It's free and easier, and that is why it will not attract more people than SCII. It requires less commitment and mental stimulation, and that is exactly why people will tend to be less passionate towards this game. And given that it is easier to play, I have found that it is also easier to get bored while playing it. if thats true, then why has sc2 attracted more people than bw despite requiring less commitment? It really hasn't. I'm almost sure that more BW games are played around the world than SC2 games. lawl no
You're kind of wrong. BW is still vastly more popular in East Asia and the Korean pro scene is soooo much more vibrant than anything SC2 has to offer.
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I see a long term future for SC2. Firstly, the game was well hyped before release - yet we all had the taste of how it was, since a lot of beta testers (including me) posted videos on YT, showed it to friends and such.
And of course it's the successor to SC:BW - it kind of had it coming.
And thankfully forums like these, the media and more embraced SC2 giving it a great kickstart for not only the game, but eSports post 2010.
Sadly, SC2 teamgames haven't been that popular (yet?).
There was a little in BW. I kind of wish for that to become big as well.
Imagining two massive eSport scenes coming from one game alone.
But for the eSports or SC2 to become a money machine, it all depends on the media worldwide and the sponsors, so reading that Coca-Cola is going to sponsor team IM is great.
Great sponsors -> more money -> more media -> more interest -> bigger scene.
Duh.
Edit; Typos.
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I may be crazy, but I believe Day[9]'s stream has 46k viewers right now... LoL is still around 80k last time I checked.
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Are people really complaining that the numbers are "inflated" because the creators of League of Legends had the foresight to build the game so tournament streams could be accessed through their game client? Christ.
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Really, LoL is more popular than SC2. So what? Get over it, its just life. So LoL is the mainstream game and SC2 somewhat more of a cult game. Less popular, arguably more refined. Thats how media in general works.
On June 19 2011 02:58 InvictusFTW wrote:
I may be crazy, but I believe Day[9]'s stream has 46k viewers right now... LoL is still around 80k last time I checked.
Uhh, LoL is hitting 200k with main stream + second stream as we speak..
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Yeah almost 200K ppl watching LoL. Kinda crazy. But as has already been said, advertising the stream in the game has a huge impact. Blizzard should do the same.
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imho. everyone who logs in will count as a viewer.
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yeah i think there must a lot of people not even watching the stream.
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On June 19 2011 03:07 Michaels wrote:
imho. everyone who logs in will count as a viewer.
Yeah thats what was posted on the first page. Yet the thread is at this many pages lol.
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Nobody has reached the skillcap in LoL yet, even the "top" scene makes tons of mistakes and misplays (kinda like SC2 lol) and the game has a lot of potential...sadly Riot games is not the best company...poor client, meh updates...
Rofl at the people trying to demean the game by saying the stream viewers number is wrong... Every single day there are around 30 to 40k people at all time watching league of legends streams on own3d.tv, and numbers went up to 100k for ESL finals of go4lol and such...
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I've read about 50 different explanations for why the viewer count for the LOL stream is so high: it's advertised in game, counter is bugged, every person logged in the game counts as viewer, their cloud streaming feature exaggerates numbers...
So who's right?
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On June 19 2011 02:41 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 02:07 7mk wrote:On June 19 2011 02:01 chenchen wrote:On June 19 2011 01:33 Legatus Lanius wrote:On June 19 2011 01:21 InvXXVII wrote:On June 18 2011 18:56 GizmoPT wrote:
Its a free and easier game off course it will attract more people than starcraft xD It's free and easier, and that is why it will not attract more people than SCII. It requires less commitment and mental stimulation, and that is exactly why people will tend to be less passionate towards this game. And given that it is easier to play, I have found that it is also easier to get bored while playing it. if thats true, then why has sc2 attracted more people than bw despite requiring less commitment? It really hasn't. I'm almost sure that more BW games are played around the world than SC2 games. lawl no You're kind of wrong. BW is still vastly more popular in East Asia and the Korean pro scene is soooo much more vibrant than anything SC2 has to offer.
Look at how much inhabitants Korea has
Now look at how much inhabitants the USA & Europe have
On June 19 2011 03:16 dizzy101 wrote:
I've read about 50 different explanations for why the viewer count for the LOL stream is so high: it's advertised in game, counter is bugged, every person logged in the game counts as viewer, their cloud streaming feature exaggerates numbers...
So who's right?
How about: It's just a very popular game? These conspiracy theories are just from butthurt SC nerds who can't deal with the fact that a 'non legitimate E-sport title' has a lot more viewers than SC2.
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On June 19 2011 03:16 dizzy101 wrote:
I've read about 50 different explanations for why the viewer count for the LOL stream is so high: it's advertised in game, counter is bugged, every person logged in the game counts as viewer, their cloud streaming feature exaggerates numbers...
So who's right?
The simplest and most obvious: it's a very popular game. I don't know why it's such a bitter pill for SC2 fans to swallow but there you
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