On June 03 2011 11:09 BackHo wrote: And one thing I think a lot of critics tend to fail to realise is this - women at the firm young ages of their 20s are generally not actually looking to settle down. So whilst some white knighters may say: "Pickup is unethical. Why would you ever want to hurt your girlfriend by getting into a threesome," is failing to recognise that many girls around those prime years are just looking to have fun, more than a long-term relationship.
Pickup will help you get threesomes if that's what you want. But if you're looking to develop meaningful, close relationships where you eventually end up marrying the girl, then wait 'til you're 30 and wait 'til she's 30, because before a girl starts losing her looks she still wants to be doing things like partying and having threesomes, only a small minority of girls are looking for something serious in their early years.
Not all girls desire threesomes! Some yes but not all, tiger
Just be your freaking self guys. You'll get experience from failures. The key is to learn from failures and to not be afraid to fail. It's hard as hell though. Just relax and be yourself
On June 03 2011 10:11 Daigomi wrote: Thanks for the repy! My main problem with PUA techniques is that there's a big difference between being based on psychological principles and being scientific. I do research on social psychology, and in my experience, for every social psychological "principle" out there, there are at least ten caveats or requirements. The bias I am currently studying has had more than a hundred research articles investigating and confirming its effect, and still there is a legitimate concern that it will not be observed in my population. More damning still is that social psychology (and clinical psychology) are much better researched than most fields of psychology. Evolutionary psychology, on the other hand, is more philosophical and less experimental than most fields of psychology which makes the application of its principles even more questionable. As such, when psychological principles are implemented three degrees of separation away from their original, complex form, I can't help but wander if they really are more effective than a theory ignorant of psychological principles.
It absolutely isn't strictly scientific, and anyone who suggests otherwise is overstating the case. It's more accurate to say that this is a field that has been well-researched by amateurs and experts in a trial-and-error manner based on scientific principles, similar to how teamliquid members try out different build orders and styles of play and gradually come to a (non-scientific, but useful) consensus.
On June 03 2011 10:11 Daigomi wrote:This leads to a question I have. You mention that PUA is more useful than mainstream dating advice. Does this mean you feel like the PUA techniques are useful in and of themselves (meaning you exclude the placebo confidence they give)? That is to say, if two people with exactly the same levels of confidence/looks/etc. approached the same number of women, but the one flirts in the old-fashioned way and the other using PUA skills, do you think the one using PUA skills would do better. If yes, why do you believe so?
It's observational consensus of an expert group, e.g. for the same reason that most of the experienced members of teamliquid would tell you that 3 Base Spire -> 5 Hatch Hydra is a strong ZvP option when executed correctly, and 1 Base Ultras is not. The seduction community actively tests out different ideas and reports back on what works and doesn't. And as people develop expert knowledge, they can also evaluate strategies without necessarily testing them, based on their understanding of the general princples based on how Zerg play (or seduction) works.
Individually, I can tell you that mainstream dating advice is useless compared to seduction community advice based on my own experiences (if we run with the Starcraft analogy, I've tested the different build orders extensively).
what pisses me off is that people make it too complicated. girls aren't only attracted to money and power, as i read in one article a couple years ago that was kinda bad for me.
heres 1 way to get a chick, be yourself, be interesting, be assertive. after that you can do whatever the fuck you want.
On June 03 2011 11:15 jambam wrote: Just be your freaking self guys. You'll get experience from failures. The key is to learn from failures and to not be afraid to fail. It's hard as hell though. Just relax and be yourself
How about if you "be yourself" and don't improve? There are guys who spend their entire lives not being good with women even though they try to improve in that area. Are you saying there were "never themselves?" You can tell someone to improve and learn from failures but how about if they don't know how? I can tell someone who is not that knowledgeable about working out " hey just improve and learn from your failures!" but that's not going to help them be a stud in the gym unless they know when they fail, can identify it and know how they are failing, how to prevent it, and WHAT to do to improve.
Furthermore, how about if your "true self" sucks socially speaking and needs an overhaul? I hate this disney line. Some men need to learn to understand women.... how to socialize and interact with women in an attractive way.. when they haven't learned these things when they were younger for whatever reason(s).
On June 03 2011 11:25 shawster wrote: what pisses me off is that people make it too complicated. girls aren't only attracted to money and power, as i read in one article a couple years ago that was kinda bad for me.
heres 1 way to get a chick, be yourself, be interesting, be assertive. after that you can do whatever the fuck you want.
On June 03 2011 11:25 shawster wrote: what pisses me off is that people make it too complicated. girls aren't only attracted to money and power, as i read in one article a couple years ago that was kinda bad for me.
heres 1 way to get a chick, be yourself, be interesting, be assertive. after that you can do whatever the fuck you want.
women aren't puzzles lol, you can't solve them.
It's not complicated, you are right but it doesn't mean it's obvious to all. Algebra is easy when you learn the simple underlying mathematical concepts but you have to put it all together etc.
And being yourself, being interesting, and assertive can still land you in the dreaded "friend zone"
On June 03 2011 11:15 jambam wrote: Just be your freaking self guys. You'll get experience from failures. The key is to learn from failures and to not be afraid to fail. It's hard as hell though. Just relax and be yourself
How about if you "be yourself" and don't improve? There are guys who spend their entire lives not being good with women even though they try to improve in that area. Are you saying there were "never themselves?" You can tell someone to improve and learn from failures but how about if they don't know how? I can tell someone who is not that knowledgeable about working out " hey just improve and learn from your failures!" but that's not going to help them be a stud in the gym unless they know when they fail, can identify it and know how they are failing, how to prevent it, and WHAT to do to improve.
Furthermore, how about if your "true self" sucks socially speaking and needs an overhaul? I hate this disney line. Some men need to learn to understand women.... how to socialize and interact with women in an attractive way.. when they haven't learned these things when they were younger for whatever reason(s).
The impetus is on them. There's few things that anyone can say to make a person learn how to act in an attractive way. It's a personal journey. I do not think that I can help anyone by telling them what to do. Its like everything in life. You need to practice. It's just that this type of practice can be emotionally taxing. I'm saying that the only way to learn something fully is through experience and that requires personal trial.
Personally, I've had about 7 failed relationships. Each one got farther than the last. I slowly learned what girls liked, and I learned it through being afraid and saying stupid things and not being upfront enough. It was hard as hell emotionally, but each time I came out more mature. The only thing that was ever holding me back was fear. Fear is only defeated through experience and by being calm within your own skin.
TL:DR Find a girl and go for it! Life is too damn short to be held back by fear
On June 03 2011 11:15 jambam wrote: Just be your freaking self guys. You'll get experience from failures. The key is to learn from failures and to not be afraid to fail. It's hard as hell though. Just relax and be yourself
How about if you "be yourself" and don't improve? There are guys who spend their entire lives not being good with women even though they try to improve in that area. Are you saying there were "never themselves?" You can tell someone to improve and learn from failures but how about if they don't know how? I can tell someone who is not that knowledgeable about working out " hey just improve and learn from your failures!" but that's not going to help them be a stud in the gym unless they know when they fail, can identify it and know how they are failing, how to prevent it, and WHAT to do to improve.
Furthermore, how about if your "true self" sucks socially speaking and needs an overhaul? I hate this disney line. Some men need to learn to understand women.... how to socialize and interact with women in an attractive way.. when they haven't learned these things when they were younger for whatever reason(s).
The impetus is on them. There's few things that anyone can say to make a person learn how to act in an attractive way. It's a personal journey. I do not think that I can help anyone by telling them what to do. Its like everything in life. You need to practice. It's just that this type of practice can be emotionally taxing. I'm saying that the only way to learn something fully is through experience and that requires personal trial.
Personally, I've had about 7 failed relationships. Each one got farther than the last. I slowly learned what girls liked, and I learned it through being afraid and saying stupid things and not being upfront enough. It was hard as hell emotionally, but each time I came out more mature. The only thing that was ever holding me back was fear. Fear is only defeated through experience and by being calm within your own skin.
TL:DR Find a girl and go for it! Life is too damn short to be held back by fear
Not everybody can or will find their way on their own lol. You were fortunate in such. I had to learn from others to become solid with women and attract high value ones at that. Not everyone is a natural and just gets it at an early age or come across opportunities where they can learn (there are guys who can't even get into a relationship to begin with).
On June 03 2011 11:25 shawster wrote: what pisses me off is that people make it too complicated. girls aren't only attracted to money and power, as i read in one article a couple years ago that was kinda bad for me.
heres 1 way to get a chick, be yourself, be interesting, be assertive. after that you can do whatever the fuck you want.
On June 03 2011 04:05 Daigomi wrote: Just a question to people who have read books on PUA, is there any scientific evidence to support it? Specifically, are there scientific studies published in respectable journals supporting it? From what I've read (mostly on TL), PUA seems to be based on evolutionary psychology which, at its best, is borderline scientific (most claims aren't falsifiable). If this is the case, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the books are ineffective. Giving people confidence in their ability to attract the opposite sex and telling them its ok to approach lots of women can only increase their chances to get laid. I'm just wondering if the actual methods they employ help.
Short answer is no. The seduction community includes a minimal number of academics, and to my knowledge, there hasn't been a publication that has explicitly went out and tested the information provided by PUAs. Rather, the appeal of PUA gurus is that they more or less have a monopoly on the (good) dating advice market; mainstream dating advice is often pretty useless if not downright counter-productive.
However, I would point out that the seduction community tactics generally draw support from existing scientific research in psychology, sociology, and sexuality/gender studies. For example, the study found here provides scientific evidence that in many cases, merely having the courage to ask an attractive stranger girl out will succeed about half the time for typical college guys (and secondarily, opening with a proposition for sex fails almost all the time). Although the methodology is slightly questionable (in that I suspect that some of the 'yes's' weren't going to be followed up), the general idea seems accurate and matches up with real people's experiences.
On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc.
Game isn't about faking confidence; it's about gaining enough experience and success that you actually become legitimately confident with women. When you've approached hundreds of hot women and dated/slept with dozens, it's difficult to be feel nervous or insecure around girls. Additionally, confidence with your life doesn't always translate directly into confidence with women (though I agree that it often does).
When new Starcraft players are scared to ladder, do you tell them that they should practice other competitive games so that they aren't so insecure anymore? Or do you try to teach them to get over it, as well as provide concrete strategies and tactics so that they know what to do in a game and won't be so afraid? Just like with pick-up, you can't fake confidence and skill in a Starcraft game, but if you do some homework and practice, then you can have those for real.
I agree with most, if not all, of what you said here. One of the main reasons I decided to be more outgoing and pick up some notes from the PUA style is because I've witnessed it "work" through others personal experience. A majority of them were simply doing it to overcome fear and gain experience so that they honestly do start feeling confident around and with women. Once you have that confidence it opens up opportunities for all kinds of relationships.
Personally (and for loads and loads of others), alcohol is a nice accelerator of this process for me. Whether people have something against that or not is not the discussion here, but you can't deny it helps people relax and become comfortable. I like to compare it to nicotine patches for helping people quit smoking. It's not a substitute for the experience, it's an accelerator.
NO. That's NOT a good example of PUA. Not at all......
This is more of a satire version of it.
Ok, watch their video of the legit pickup. I feel really bad for the girls in that one
Why? The girls don't seem to feel bad for themselves, in fact they appear to be quite happy with the outcome. I think the girls would more feel bad about what you've written here, saying that scoring is something you feel bad for them about. Girls want to get with guys as much as guys want to get with girls. Most guys just lack the courage to do it.
Why? The girls don't seem to feel bad for themselves, in fact they appear to be quite happy with the outcome. I think the girls would more feel bad about what you've written here, saying that scoring is something you feel bad for them about. Girs want to get with guys as much as guys want to get with girls. Most guys just lack the courage to do itl.
Because I'm guessing those girls weren't interested in being filmed for an online quasi-tutorial on how to quickly escalate physically with women. They most likely thought that they were making a real connection and--this is just my opinion--that they probably became furious when they saw themselves in that video.
If they actually had no problem with being filmed that way and discovering that their entire interaction was completely fake for everyone but them then maybe I am missing something here.
EPT
