EPTThe PUA community - Page 14
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:15 ToxNub wrote: IMO most of this shit is just common sense. And I don't think any of the people behind it believe otherwise. They learned some skills and they've just passed it on. I do, however, dispute certain things about it, for one, the success rate, and two, the assertion that these skills are really the most important thing. Three, that all women work the same way. Some of the shit that gets recommended would send some of my female friends into hysterical laughter. Ok, so allowing that... Common sense isn't always as common as you might think, but you're on the mark there. The success rate claimed by people varies and is sometimes overinflated; I personally have a lot of extraneous factors going my way and I'm still only able to seduce the girls I want a little over half the time. The skills really are the most important thing, whether you're aware of it or not. It's easy to blame things on your looks because skills are more intangible, but always remember that there's a Dunning-Kreuger effect in play when it comes to any skill, including seduction. Not all women work the same way and I don't believe the seduction community claims otherwise. Calibration and eliciting values are important concepts for this reason. That said, there are things that are similar across the majority of women, just as there are things that are similar across the majority of men or humans. On July 15 2011 03:15 ToxNub wrote: I can get laid, but not by attractive women. I'm pretty sure I'm ugly, based on the way women have treated me my whole life. I work out 3 times a week, hard. I'm in great shape. I dress damn well. Mostly european clothing. I'm a young professional with a CS degree. I'm smart. I'm funny, and clever, and easy to get along with. I like the outdoors, I like travel, I like going to the gym, I'm cultured. I enjoy wine, art films, fine food. I don't smoke, I love alone and I keep my apartment immaculate. I'm also pretty good in bed, as far as I can tell. My cock is enormous (sorry TMI). And really, I'm pretty humble, despite how this might appear  To be completely frank, either you're being disingenuous or there's something (or multiple things) that you are doing really wrong. Your attitude is one warning sign, and the fact that you 'form crushes' is another indicator of major problems with your frame. If you have any recorded interactions between yourself and a girl that you were interested in (video, recording, chat log, etc.), feel free to PM them to me for a constructive critique. I might not be a guru, but Diamond league players can still help out Bronzes, and it's free =P. On July 15 2011 03:24 Wr3k wrote: Honestly I feel like 95% of all of the PUA advice can be simplified to one line: "Don't be a giant pussy". It's a big part of it, though I wouldn't say 95%. Avoiding chasing/neediness/desperation might even be considered the opposite of that, as it's perceiving when you should actually make a tactical retreat. The concept of attraction and comfort before seduction also runs counter to being completely reckless. General/advanced social skills also have a lot more to do with finesse than mere courage. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:52 sunprince wrote: [To be completely frank, either you're being disingenuous or there's something (or multiple things) that you are doing really wrong. Your attitude is one warning sign, and the fact that you 'form crushes' is another indicator of major problems with your frame. If you have any recorded interactions between yourself and a girl that you were interested in (video, recording, chat log, etc.), feel free to PM them to me for a constructive critique. I might not be a guru, but Diamond league players can still help out Bronzes, and it's free =P. I may take you up on that. However, I don't believe it will dispute my experience. If women don't approach me, online or otherwise, it's obviously not my attitude or what I say. It's something with my appearance or mannerisms. Yes, I understand most women want me to approach them. But the complete lack of outliers gives me a clue. There's other things I notice too, like how women often direct their gaze elsewhere to avoid looking at me (even though I saw the first glance). I don't know what's wrong with my attitude... I'm good natured and I put in effort, without getting desperate. Crushes are harmless, imo. Usually they are on people outside of my social circle or people I only meet in poor situations for an approach (eg. my waitress), girls with boyfriends, girls that are not interested that I sitll have a boner for, etc. | ||
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iamho
United States3345 Posts
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:24 Wr3k wrote: Honestly I feel like 95% of all of the PUA advice can be simplified to one line: "Don't be a giant pussy". 100% of all dating advice can be simplified to one line: "Become a man." That's something you can't learn from others, you can only let them show you and then decide to become who you want. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
On July 15 2011 04:27 KurtistheTurtle wrote: 100% of all dating advice can be simplified to one line: "Become a man." That's something you can't learn from others, you can only let them show you and then decide to become who you want. Except advice like this is so overly simplistic is quite ambiguous. Many people might have different views on what a man is supposed to do, what qualifies as being a pussy... including women. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 15 2011 04:22 ToxNub wrote: However, I don't believe it will dispute my experience. If women don't approach me, online or otherwise, it's obviously not my attitude or what I say. It's something with my appearance or mannerisms. Yes, I understand most women want me to approach them. But the complete lack of outliers gives me a clue. There's other things I notice too, like how women often direct their gaze elsewhere to avoid looking at me (even though I saw the first glance). The problem with not approaching is that this takes away from most of the advantages that you say you have, and places a greater emphasize on exterior value displays such as looks, body language, and socio-economic signalling. If you know that your advantages with women involve your theoretically cultured personality, then why aren't you exploiting that to your benefit? The only reason to play a passive game with most women is if you've been blessed with good looks, celebrity, or sick wealth (and are willing to display it in a conspicuous but refined manner). There are some things you can do to make a passive game more effective, such as open body language, social vibing, and using social proof if you have close female friends to use as pivots, but still, you're not going to want to compete with the guys who do have those advantages. The small minority of women who do approach men are mostly either (a) desperate/unattractive/older, (b)high-status girls who can have their pick of alpha men, or (c) members of subcultures with unusual gender norms (doms, sex-positive feminists,etc). You probably don't want the first group and you don't have a chance with the second group without more experience, so unless you're into the last group, you're not gonna get anywhere with this. On July 15 2011 04:22 ToxNub wrote: I don't know what's wrong with my attitude... I'm good natured and I put in effort, without getting desperate. Crushes are harmless, imo. Usually they are on people outside of my social circle or people I only meet in poor situations for an approach (eg. my waitress), girls with boyfriends, girls that are not interested that I sitll have a boner for, etc. The main attitude problem that I'm picking up on is that (a) you know what doesn't work for you, but don't do anything change it, and (b) you have way too many mental hang-ups getting in the way. If I had one piece of advice for you based on what you've said, it's to get out of your comfort zone and try new things. If you're not willing to approach girls, and you're not attracted to the few girls who approach you, then obviously you're going to end up celibate. | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:24 Wr3k wrote: Honestly I feel like 95% of all of the PUA advice can be simplified to one line: "Don't be a giant pussy". QFT. Memorizing scripts and doing weird things to show how "alpha" you are is just retarded. Get some cash, bitches. It's that simple! | ||
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squattincassanova
United States650 Posts
1. "Just be a man. Dont be a wuss". That's like telling a 500 pound person, to look great, just eat right and work out. So easy right? You think that's really useful advice? if that's the case, I am Anthony Robbins at everything. 2. Scripts are training wheels. Its not the pinnacle of pickup. Very rarely will good PUAs depend on scripts. When you can't swim, use a floatie. When you dont know wtf to say, use a canned opener. The training wheels come off when you get the hang of it. People think pickup is just purely remembering lines. Yeah, like I'm talking to a girl for hours and I'm going to be stringing thousands of canned lines right? Please. | ||
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squattincassanova
United States650 Posts
 Here is a recording of me in field.Debrief at Dennys. The girl in here is gonna be a lay this weekend. Mark my word. Gonna get it recorded. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On July :57 Emon_ wrote: QFT. Memorizing scripts and doing weird things to show how "alpha" you are is just retarded. Get some cash, bitches. It's that simple! in the last 5 years noone teaches to memorize scripts | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
On July 15 2011 04:54 sunprince wrote: The problem with not approaching is that this takes away from most of the advantages that you say you have, and places a greater emphasize on exterior value displays such as looks, body language, and socio-economic signalling. If you know that your advantages with women involve your theoretically cultured personality, then why aren't you exploiting that to your benefit? The only reason to play a passive game with most women is if you've been blessed with good looks, celebrity, or sick wealth (and are willing to display it in a conspicuous but refined manner). There are some things you can do to make a passive game more effective, such as open body language, social vibing, and using social proof if you have close female friends to use as pivots, but still, you're not going to want to compete with the guys who do have those advantages. The small minority of women who do approach men are mostly either (a) desperate/unattractive/older, (b)high-status girls who can have their pick of alpha men, or (c) members of subcultures with unusual gender norms (doms, sex-positive feminists,etc). You probably don't want the first group and you don't have a chance with the second group without more experience, so unless you're into the last group, you're not gonna get anywhere with this. I completely agree. I'm not arguing with you at all, I only say that since neither a) b), or c) approach me that this seems to indicate a problem with my appearance. I'm not advocating passive game, quite the opposite. I'm just saying that despite my best efforts, I have little faith that being charming is really effective if by default nobody is attracted to you. This is just my experience, but I've messaged hundreds of women in the last 6 months on dating sites, and I've put up my best pictures, and I've got 3 dates out of the whole deal. Even the biggest idiot can manage to say something charming in that many messages. | ||
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squattincassanova
United States650 Posts
On July 15 2011 05:44 ToxNub wrote: I completely agree. I'm not arguing with you at all, I only say that since neither a) b), or c) approach me that this seems to indicate a problem with my appearance. I'm not advocating passive game, quite the opposite. I'm just saying that despite my best efforts, I have little faith that being charming is really effective if by default nobody is attracted to you. This is just my experience, but I've messaged hundreds of women in the last 6 months on dating sites, and I've put up my best pictures, and I've got 3 dates out of the whole deal. Even the biggest idiot can manage to say something charming in that many messages. FYI Most girls wont approach you unless you are REALLY hot or you are from Jersey Shore. I'm 6 feet tall, 200 pound 8% body fat and I look like Asian GQ. I wear nothing but True Religions, Ferragamo's and Hugo Boss fitted shirts when I go out. STILL rarely do girls approach me. It would be ridiculous to hope that girls will approach you and escalate on you. There is NO ALTERNATIVE to cold approach. Cold approach is king. If you aren't cold approaching, you're doing it wrong. If you aren't going out 3 nights a week and opening at least 15 sets a night, for an average of 45 sets a week. You are doing it wrong. There is no substitute to practice in the field. If you aren't dedicating at least 10 hours to go out every week, you probably will never get good unless you are a natural and you have amazing looks to begin with. Reading books is garbage, I read 4 years of pua material before I finally decided to stop being a bitch. Guess what happened when I went to the club for the first time? I froze the F*** UP. Did 4 years of being a keyboard jockey help me? Not at all. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 15 2011 05:44 ToxNub wrote: I completely agree. I'm not arguing with you at all, I only say that since neither a) b), or c) approach me that this seems to indicate a problem with my appearance. Or the way that you present yourself socially, your body language, etc. On July 15 2011 05:44 ToxNub wrote: I'm not advocating passive game, quite the opposite. I'm just saying that despite my best efforts, I have little faith that being charming is really effective if by default nobody is attracted to you Being charming is highly effective, but there's a difference between being actually charming and thinking you're charming (illusory superiority). It's not inconcievable that you're merely grossly overestimating your charm and scapegoating your looks. On July 15 2011 05:44 ToxNub wrote: This is just my experience, but I've messaged hundreds of women in the last 6 months on dating sites, and I've put up my best pictures, and I've got 3 dates out of the whole deal. Even the biggest idiot can manage to say something charming in that many messages. Which is, again, why I asked for some sort of documentation to analyze, in order to see if you're doing something you're not aware of. For example, you could be coming off as creepy or weird without knowing it. I don't personally have all that much experience with dating sites, but the general experience the seduction community has with it is that they're a low time-investment, low-success mass numbers game that is only good if you're lazy and unselective (or as a supplement to use time that can't be spent on regular pick-up if you're that bored). | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
 "For example, you could be coming off as creepy or weird without knowing it." That could certainly be. Here's a random 1st message I wrote to someone "Hi there. My name's Aaron. I hope your night is going well. I'm sitting in a restaurant with my bill paid 30 minutes ago while the waitress and I have a scowling competition. Don't fret your pretty little head... I'll win. Many long years of coffee drinking and morning commutes has perfected a glance that could cut steel. I like to ramble, and I hope you do too. The fairtrade stuff... does that mean you are addicted to coffee too? Or are you just addicted to writing about it? I hated " the alchemist", honestly. It felt like I was reading cosmo, and it was giving me 10 tips to please my man. I had the sense that i couldnt trust this advice any more than any other list in another magazine. No more insightful than "the secret" or effective than 2 week miracle bikini body. " Yeah, I dissed her favorite book. Tips? edit: one more .. this one is a chocolate/bacon loving science nerd "So... if bacon was traveling into a super-dense chocolate black hole and nobody is close enough to be within particle horizon of the observable universe, would it still be delicious? Hi. I'm Aaron! I like zombies and bacon and science and risk and netflix and portal and excessive use of "and". I'm level-headed, goofy, and notice you enjoy "BAM!"-ing (which is in my deal-breaker list). I heard master's students have no life, personal hygiene, or social skills. Is it true? I work at the university for a research group, but the masters students are suspiciously absent so I can neither confirm or deny. I just hope, for their sake, that they are not trapped beneath a stack of papers that toppled from their desk. That's enough rambling for now. Ramble back, if you like. " | ||
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insaneMicro
Germany761 Posts
Can't tell you exactly why, but it seems to long winded. You have to walk a fine line between not giving a single fuck and conveying interest at the same time. I'm sure squattincasanova is gonna weigh in on this though | ||
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zimz
United States510 Posts
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
However I did manage to take a lot out of it. I learned that confidence and some openness are basically the most important things to get across when meeting a person, and that how you come across is so much more crucial than the looks you're born with. So if you're interested in PUA and are willing to go into it with an open mind, then you can absolutely get a lot out of it. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 15 2011 06:04 squattincassanova wrote: There is NO ALTERNATIVE to cold approach. Cold approach is king. If you aren't cold approaching, you're doing it wrong. If you aren't going out 3 nights a week and opening at least 15 sets a night, for an average of 45 sets a week. You are doing it wrong. I wouldn't necessarily say that there's no alternative. Cold approach is definitely important and a solid part of my game, but I've also found that as my skills developed I learned how to use an on-going passive state to esentially induce approaches from women. A basic example might be that when I'm out with friends on the street, at a (quieter) bar, or at a party, I'm conscious of any interesting girls that end up nearby and selectively project my voice and deliberate say socially provocative or hilarious things in order to encourage girls to join in. Meanwhile, I project open body language and position myself in order to make it easy for them to do so. It's worked out fairly well for me in saving time on low-percentage cold opens in favor of spending more time hanging out with the friends I go out with while simultaneously soliciting approaches. In a way, it's not that different conceptually from peacocking or eliciting ioi's before approaching. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
I feel bad for people who actually take this advice to heart. | ||
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