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On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote:
I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad.
I would like to thank you for pointing out a 4gate as a defense to a 4gate to avoid doing a 4gate. You sir are a winner.
Seriously though, if you dont find the probe/pylon with the 3 stalker rush...you lose. 2 gate pressure can also be easily thwarted if scouted by them. There is no question 4gate is a defining factor in PvP. If you aren't doing an agressive 4gate, the best defense is a defensive 4gate with sentries. Either way all you are worrying about early game PvP is a 4gate or maybe a cannon rush.
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On April 23 2011 04:05 tooPrime wrote:
I've always said that warp gate warp in time should increase the father away you are from the warp gate. So if you warp in your base it's like 3 seconds, and across the map it's like ten. That's not a huge difference but it would give a defenders advantage in PvP as opposed to nothing like it is now. Like the idea...
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I like the idea that gateways build faster than wg's, I think that as a macro mechanic it would add tremendously to the required skill level of protoss, which as a random player I find to be far easier than both T and Z.
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On April 22 2011 17:45 dacthehork wrote:
The concept of early game warp technology was a flawed one
1. Warp Tech is required and happens at the beginning of the game
2. Warp Tech removes defenders advantage in terms of production timing / walk distance.
Who could have foreseen that Warp Gate would create rush imbalances
Warp Tech as a lategame upgrade just makes far more sense and fosters macro / skilled games (can't have that). Instead of moving warp gate to a much higher tier instead they have spent the last year balancing around having protoss able to eliminate map distance/size.
Most sensible suggestion I've read in ... forever
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On April 23 2011 04:09 JediGamer wrote:
As a toss player I always thought turning a gate into a warpgate should cost 50/25 or 25/25. Seems more balanced then buffing regular gateways...
good point actually
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On April 23 2011 04:17 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:09 JediGamer wrote:
As a toss player I always thought turning a gate into a warpgate should cost 50/25 or 25/25. Seems more balanced then buffing regular gateways... good point actually
If by "good point actually" you mean "worst suggestion ever", then I agree with you.
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This will just screw up the other matchups, I mean look, are they trying to make a fix so that teching and defending will give you an advantage over a 4 gater? Not really, unless this change decreases build time from gateways that much in which case it'll just screw over PvZ and PvT's early game, and will severely benefit proxy 2 gaters and other cheese builds.
What they should have done is give the defender the advantage. If you warp units in your own base, then the cooldown is 10 seconds less than warping it in cross map, make it vary from 0-10 seconds depending on warp distance.
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Canada13431 Posts
On April 23 2011 04:17 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:45 dacthehork wrote:
The concept of early game warp technology was a flawed one
1. Warp Tech is required and happens at the beginning of the game
2. Warp Tech removes defenders advantage in terms of production timing / walk distance.
Who could have foreseen that Warp Gate would create rush imbalances
Warp Tech as a lategame upgrade just makes far more sense and fosters macro / skilled games (can't have that). Instead of moving warp gate to a much higher tier instead they have spent the last year balancing around having protoss able to eliminate map distance/size.
Most sensible suggestion I've read in ... forever
Thanks for quoting that it was a very good point made by dacthehork. Kudos for that insight 
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On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote:
I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad.
I think you may have stumbled upon the wrong site by accident. The main focus of TL is following the pro scene. This isn't an AAU site. Watchability > gameplay.
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On April 23 2011 03:51 Mastermind wrote:
I dont think this change is needed. I use to hate pvp, but now that I know how to play it properly I am starting to enjoy it. Getting past the 4gate stage really isn't that difficult. Mid game pvp has a lot of options and is quite interesting and fun to play.
I must agree with you, the more you learn to play PvP the more you enjoy it. I think that it ultimately will become a very interesting and fancy match to watch because of the constant agression that it leads to.
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On April 23 2011 04:20 Zlasher wrote:
This will just screw up the other matchups, I mean look, are they trying to make a fix so that teching and defending will give you an advantage over a 4 gater? Not really, unless this change decreases build time from gateways that much in which case it'll just screw over PvZ and PvT's early game, and will severely benefit proxy 2 gaters and other cheese builds.
What they should have done is give the defender the advantage. If you warp units in your own base, then the cooldown is 10 seconds less than warping it in cross map, make it vary from 0-10 seconds depending on warp distance.
What? How can you define the object "your base"? What if I proxy?
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From a spectators perspective (since I don't play P) I would like to see some kind of trade-off be implemented between Gateways and Warp Gates. It would, IMO, make mid-game timing attacks like the 6-gate a lot more interesting to watch with the addition of players having to time when its beneficial to switch to warp gates on each map.
I somehow doubt they're going to heavily modify the warp-in system or do any kind of fundamental design change to the Protoss race though. Most likely we'll get some sort of build time nerf.. which is far less interesting and may actually cause more problems than it'll solve.
Still I'd gladly trade in the 4 Gate for the return of the Proxy 2 Gate strategy. 2 Gate has far more risk associated with it.. just as an early rush should.
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I just don't think that Blizzard should change the game because it is "boring" because that is sooooooooo subjective and people will complain about one thing or another. I mean, people complained about MC proxy 2gating WhiteRa at dreamhack ffs...
Balance issues are something completely different though, and to say that something is imbalanced in a mirror matchup is somewhat unfounded.
Some good points have been brought up about stagnant play that I would like to address. The threat of 4gate provokes the opponent to automatically counter it, but i kind of consider this to be the way that starcraft as a whole plays out. If you are not prepared for an early game rush that will kill you because you are cutting corners to take advantages in the later game, you are dead. Similar to if you don't wall off to prevent early pool rushes vs Zerg, you are dead. I like to consider gameplay like this "soft" countering.
Now, indeed there are rushes that do not require "soft" countering, and should only be reacted to once confirmed such as cannon rushes and proxy 2gates because "soft" countering these builds will put you behind if they are not doing these builds.
This brings me to 4gate. I consider 4gate to be a build that is necessary to soft counter but not necessarily blind counter and what pros (or all protoss players) should do is develop a build or strategy that takes this into consideration. Blind countering 4gate is bad because it will put you behind if the opponent is not doing a 4gate. This makes it necessary to develop builds that will absolutely stomp/crush 4gate while not sacrificing much of anything and coming out ahead of your opponent.
The only reason Blizzard would want to change PvP and 4gate is if soft countering 4gate is impossible, which I do not think is the case. The 3 stalker rush that Artosis does is what I believe is a stepping stone in innovation to developing a build that can pave the way for the future of PvP:
+ Show Spoiler +
Although there are problems to the build, it is proof of concept, and I think people shouldn't be so hasty to result to changing the actual game.
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Hmm I really like this. Now it will probably make more sense to keep all your gateways as gateways if you are just marching in your base assuming warpgate research time is increased. It does kind of suck for other matchups though throwingnin a four warpgate here or there would be interesting. Kinda feels like yet another nerf to me. We will see how they approach it.
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Instead of adjusting the build times, how about adjusting the costs? Perhaps add an additional 25 gas or mineral cost to any unit that you warp in. Somewhere so that a toss can only afford warping in units from in between 2 and 3 gateways every warp cycle. That would encourage the toss to make a mixture of warpgates and gateways. This would also address the problem in ZvP where the P is on three bases, makes 10+ gateways, and can reinforce their army just as fast as the Z.
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4 gate is the dominant strategy in PvP, because if you don't 4 gate and the other guy does, you will most likely lose. No one is saying you have to 4 gate, but your highest chance of success is in 4 gating.
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Great to know they are aware of it! I happend to whine a bit about it in a blog lately and got warned for it xD I spend alot of time to figure out a build that beats 4 gate in pvp but found none.
Even White-Ras special tactics fail when it comes to PvP. The suggested fix sounds reasonable to me, but it has to line up perfectly with CBoost timings etc. to get some good builds out for it.
Thats my opinion.
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The 3 Stalker build has been created by IMYonghwa not by Artosis. Just sayin because i have seen people calling it the Artosis build.
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What 4gate issue? The one that exists in the numbers or the one created by culture? On a normal size ramp it is already possible to defend 4gate, not going 4gate. I see that as the key point, and people will agure that point, but blizzard has not even bothered. Blizzard saying they are changing 4gate for pvp sadly just looks like appeasing the masses to me. Many people would just be happy with not being able to warp up a ramp, which will kill the 4gate. Who knows, lets see what they do, but sounds like zealot rush is good again though.
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On April 23 2011 04:20 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:17 Golgotha wrote:On April 23 2011 04:09 JediGamer wrote:
As a toss player I always thought turning a gate into a warpgate should cost 50/25 or 25/25. Seems more balanced then buffing regular gateways... good point actually If by "good point actually" you mean "worst suggestion ever", then I agree with you.
i love the idea actually. it doesnt screw up any build times or game designs, but it cuts the gas on someone who is rushing warp gates compared to someone who is getting gateway robo...
tell me your reasoning lol
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EPT
