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On April 23 2011 03:51 Mastermind wrote:
I dont think this change is needed. I use to hate pvp, but now that I know how to play it properly I am starting to enjoy it. Getting past the 4gate stage really isn't that difficult. Mid game pvp has a lot of options and is quite interesting and fun to play.
I have to ask, are you serious? 4 Gate is insanely hard to hold off if your opponents are the same skill as you. Even the 3 Stalker build completely dies if you miss the pylon somehow (which on maps like Xel'Naga is VERY easy to do).
The mid game consists of Colsi vs Colsi or MAYBE Colsi/Stalker vs. Colsi/Pheonix.
I think there is a reason probably 80% of the pro PvP's you see end up in 4 gate vs 4 gate....
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I know this sounds crazy, but I'm a real fan of PvP at the moment. Probably because I don't have to play it... and I'm always of the assumption that the players are good enough that the game would evolve by itself over time. If that were 100% impossible- ya I guess they should change it.
Some of the Z/Stalker 4 gate micro is some of the most exciting stuff I've seen in SC2 so far.
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On April 23 2011 03:59 cursor wrote:
I know this sounds crazy, but I'm a real fan of PvP at the moment. Probably because I don't have to play it... and I'm always of the assumption that the players are good enough that the game would evolve by itself over time. If that were 100% impossible- ya I guess they should change it.
Some of the Z/Stalker 4 gate micro is some of the most exciting stuff I've seen in SC2 so far.
Play 100+ games of it and you will hate it... Games often come down to losing 1-2 stalkers which is very brutal.
I think at this state the players cannot evolve. Every single aspect of Protoss play has improved in leaps and bouncs since beta, but 4 gate has been the standard PvP since mid beta. People have tried almost EVERY counter, and when they find one, players learn to 4 gate better.
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Looking at this tread and ignoring all of the is toss imbalanced and differant races cheese talk then i feel you end up in a situation that people seem to generally agree that a slower WG research time would allow for differant builds to be more effective in pvp however theyre scared that the fewer units toss can make out of standard gates in the same time then early game toss will be verry vulnerable.
This is where the reduced build time for Gateway units come in as it wont have to be a massive reduction to allow toss to get an extra round of units out (10 secs for instance would allow 1 extra round every 2 mins) and make it a bit safer for the toss player.
Their are some concerns about 2 gate proxy but this is less of an issue on the larger maps as just finding your opponent on tal'darim can take a while if you scout the wrong way round. Ok on other maps its differant but we arent talking steps here.
Honestly i think Blizz has thought about this and seen this as the best way to shake up the matchup while not breaking toss vs the T and Z. The discussion about War of the Worlds style pvp is also a bit out i feel as the NASL game between Axslav and Squirtle showd that pheonix can deal with collosus and then help out in the battle with lifts and harass aswell.
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If they do this I think a small stalker buff is in place
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Shouldn't you be concerned about balance first though? I really think that they should be paying attention to the other, nonmirror matchups before looking at one which is 100% guaranteed to be balanced... and watching a Protoss make a huge ass deathball and attack is more boring to watch than 4gate wars - in 4gate wars you at least get to watch intense micro battles to determine the victor.
Blizzard should be concerned about all aspects of their game.
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On April 23 2011 03:49 Bulldozor wrote:
Everyone is talking about PvP, but how is this gonna change PvT?
Proxygate will be tremendously strong with a faster buildtime on zealots and the longer buildtime on bunker last patch..
Thoughts?
Scout the proxy gates better maybe ? =/
we have no real info what its going to be changed yet so not sure why this thread is so long already 
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Talking about XvP (where X is not protoss), you would hope everyone does their due diligence on balance. If they go through with any of this, I'd imagine there would be a public test again.
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I've always said that warp gate warp in time should increase the father away you are from the warp gate. So if you warp in your base it's like 3 seconds, and across the map it's like ten. That's not a huge difference but it would give a defenders advantage in PvP as opposed to nothing like it is now.
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Enemy Pylons don't apply power fields within x range of your nexus
PVP devolves to who can sneak a nexus into your base!
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On April 23 2011 03:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:51 Mastermind wrote:
I dont think this change is needed. I use to hate pvp, but now that I know how to play it properly I am starting to enjoy it. Getting past the 4gate stage really isn't that difficult. Mid game pvp has a lot of options and is quite interesting and fun to play. I have to ask, are you serious? 4 Gate is insanely hard to hold off if your opponents are the same skill as you. Even the 3 Stalker build completely dies if you miss the pylon somehow (which on maps like Xel'Naga is VERY easy to do). The mid game consists of Colsi vs Colsi or MAYBE Colsi/Stalker vs. Colsi/Pheonix. I think there is a reason probably 80% of the pro PvP's you see end up in 4 gate vs 4 gate....
I just hold off 4 gate with my own 4gate. You have the advantage of being above a ramp and the other player has to funnel through that tight choke allowing you to get a couple free shots in. After that I go phoenix which dominates 1 base robo play. The intense micro in pvp is fun for me.
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Canada13410 Posts
Does anyone else have the sneaking suspicion that the warpgate change might just lead to a leter 4 gate v 4 gate or some sort of 6 or 7 gate timing?
I mean FE into 6 gate timing would probably kill a tech past immortals :/ (oh dear god .... )
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I think a better fix would be to prevent warping in on an elevation above your pylon. I think if that happened, it would basically kill the 4gate because people could hold their ramp with ~2-3 sentries till their immortals or other tech of choice start popping. I think a change to WG research time is tricky because a lot of 2 racks pressure defense is completely dependent on warpgates popping. + It's a bit of a nerf to PvZ just because zerg will feel safer droning hardcore, but some 4gates will probably still work in the MU so long as the timing nerf isn't super big.
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As a toss player I always thought turning a gate into a warpgate should cost 50/25 or 25/25. Seems more balanced then buffing regular gateways...
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On April 23 2011 04:07 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 23 2011 03:51 Mastermind wrote:
I dont think this change is needed. I use to hate pvp, but now that I know how to play it properly I am starting to enjoy it. Getting past the 4gate stage really isn't that difficult. Mid game pvp has a lot of options and is quite interesting and fun to play. I have to ask, are you serious? 4 Gate is insanely hard to hold off if your opponents are the same skill as you. Even the 3 Stalker build completely dies if you miss the pylon somehow (which on maps like Xel'Naga is VERY easy to do). The mid game consists of Colsi vs Colsi or MAYBE Colsi/Stalker vs. Colsi/Pheonix. I think there is a reason probably 80% of the pro PvP's you see end up in 4 gate vs 4 gate.... I just hold off 4 gate with my own 4gate. You have the advantage of being above a ramp and the other player has to funnel through that tight choke allowing you to get a couple free shots in. After that I go phoenix which dominates 1 base robo play. The intense micro in pvp is fun for me.
Yeah but then they just camp the bottom of your ramp and throw pylons up by it until they get one off and can warp up your ramp. Plus it's sort of lame to have to have a rush build be the best macro opening for the MU. It'd be like if you HAD to 4 gate goon in PvP as your best chance of expanding.
Plus most PvP's now are 4 gate into tech where you have a 13 minute 1 base vs. 1 base game which again is sort of lame. It's the same reason people bitched for better maps, macro games are very cool and fans want to see them which you will rarely see in PvP.
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I think the idea is not to kill the 4gate but to make sure it does not dominate the match up
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if they go through with this change it sounds like anything more than 5 seconds increase in T1-1.5 build time will cause gateways to produce units faster than warpgates (since it takes ~5 seconds to warp in a unit)
i hope this is true, then macro will be 30 million times easier as protoss
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As a T im very happy for this change, I think its funny that blizz is saying this will only affect pvp when its very obvious that this will greatly affect all the MU"s for P. The amount of options protoss has right now on the newer maps is just far to great. Being able to all in on Tal'darim Altar is kind of bad design.
This change could bring alot more macro to the table which would be great to see, Ive always thought warp gates were just a bit gimmicky. I like the idea of protoss choosing which to use and switching between the two, That would put alot more decision making and strategy to the race. Then what T and Z are faced with currently. And would definately stop some boring as fuck GSL finals cough MC cough.
You guys need to stop bitching about proxys,
1) We have new maps No more stepees
2) Very easy to scout, and both races have ample ways of dealing with it with the way the meta game has shifted from Auguest.
3) Proxys always involve risk of being scouted and is far more exciting then, "And we can see MC put his proxy pylon up..........
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On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote:
I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad.
Here's the problem, if you do any of those builds (aside form the artosis thing but that has it's own issues of missing the pylon on bigger maps) and the guy's not 4 gating you're behind against every other opening that is harder to stop a 4 gate with.
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EPT
