EPT
PvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 29
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:09 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Colossus are slow!?! for gods sake, they are the same speed as marines/marauders (units that are considered mobile) and have good mobility being able to cliff walk. They're considered mobile because of stim, which Collosi thankfully don't have. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:26 gnutz wrote: The Warpgates never were a solution to random poking of Terrans. Indeed, the random poking did occur most of the time before warpgates were finished. They were a problem because the sentry was not out, the sentry you needed to build in a gateway. I think so. DQ is a good example. But that still has nothing to do with warpgates. It had to do with the bad maps. And even this change would make it better for Protoss on small maps, because their sentry and stalker would get out faster. Or what do you mean by random poking? And when were proxy gates undefendable? oO But what many suggested, if you don't change the buildtimes of Zealots (/change the buildtimes not completely) but only of stalkers and sentry, i don't think it will work out bad. I don't know why i'm defending Blizzard,lol. But i think it is a good idea. But obviously requires lots of testing. Hmm the timings for the more aggressive pokings 15-20 seconds before Warpgate is done for majority of builds, which gives toss enough time to delay with their one forcefield and get 2-3 Gateways transforming. The builds like the one Select/Fenix/QXC do will most likely be much much harder to defend, that instant warpin bypassing a production cycle is sometimes crucial when trying to survive, especially if you go double sentry to try and be "safe", you might just die going double sentry. Most likely he means if the terran happens to get up the ramp now, it can screw over the Protoss pretty badly since units will be streaming out of gateways longer and will be much easier to catch units, especially with more aggressive builds that will get up your ramp even if you get 2 sentries, I think Fenix did something like that--the protoss narrowly skirted death when his warpgates finished and was able to bypass a production cycle and warp-in sentry instantly to throw another FF whilst his last one was running out. The version Select does that is almost impossible to scout because he leads with an SCV+Marine to clear out Xel'Naga towers might be brutal :o | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:02 hitman133 wrote: I hope it won't affect PvT in early game, 2 raxes marauders pressure is very difficult now already Yes, but by the time the 2 rax is over, you (can) have 3 warpgates out, and the production starts to come in (which causes the 2 rax to stop basically.) Also, i think some top protoss are already figuring out timings in pvp. but hopefully this will fix the mu for good. | ||
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Sahand
United Kingdom114 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:02 hitman133 wrote: I hope it won't affect PvT in early game, 2 raxes marauders pressure is very difficult now already if anything you should be able to squeeze out another sentry to block your ramp a 2nd time so it would balance out anyways | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:44 N3rV[Green] wrote:+ Show Spoiler + The thing that I have a problem with is, I HAVE A SOLUTION that does nothing to the game and simply changes the mindset of early protoss in the early game. At first it was a more cutesy build with two cannons if they 4-gate and going for phoenix harass. This had some holes in that that I found playing with masters level players, but the idea of an early forge for safety and upgrades are amazing no matter what was solid IMO. Then I saw Naniwa play PvP, and use his gateway wall in. I adapted the two gates, and replaced the pylon with a cannon. I'm now invincible vs a 4 gate push with proper control (1 zealot outside the wall to keep other zeals off the cannon, sentries produced as needed but prioritizing stalkers off 3 gates) With good scouting you can figure out what he's doing expanding wise, and you are in a position where you have 1/1 nearing completion, blink either done or getting started, and the option of taking an expand or punishing an expand. I feel that it's a very solid way of playing, and things like this are what we need to fix PvP, not fucking balance changes.... replays: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204811.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204812.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204813.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204814.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204815.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204816.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204817.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204818.jpg) That's a really good point, but the fact of matter is, nothing concrete has been said at all so we don't even know what balance changes are coming, if any at all. They only said that they were looking at it. Until we have more information though, what you're doing is what everyone should be doing: using what they have to deal with this problem. | ||
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:44 N3rV[Green] wrote: The thing that I have a problem with is, I HAVE A SOLUTION that does nothing to the game and simply changes the mindset of early protoss in the early game. At first it was a more cutesy build with two cannons if they 4-gate and going for phoenix harass. This had some holes in that that I found playing with masters level players, but the idea of an early forge for safety and upgrades are amazing no matter what was solid IMO. Then I saw Naniwa play PvP, and use his gateway wall in. I adapted the two gates, and replaced the pylon with a cannon. I'm now invincible vs a 4 gate push with proper control (1 zealot outside the wall to keep other zeals off the cannon, sentries produced as needed but prioritizing stalkers off 3 gates) With good scouting you can figure out what he's doing expanding wise, and you are in a position where you have 1/1 nearing completion, blink either done or getting started, and the option of taking an expand or punishing an expand. I feel that it's a very solid way of playing, and things like this are what we need to fix PvP, not fucking balance changes.... While this play is o.k, (ive seen response do this type of hold a bunch), its not ok vs blink, or robo, which are 2 very common openings/transitions. And if you do either of those builds, then you are again, made vulnerable to the 4 gate. | ||
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ShotoElite
United States79 Posts
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:26 gnutz wrote: The Warpgates never were a solution to random poking of Terrans. Indeed, the random poking did occur most of the time before warpgates were finished. They were a problem because the sentry was not out, the sentry you needed to build in a gateway. I think so. DQ is a good example. But that still has nothing to do with warpgates. It had to do with the bad maps. And even this change would make it better for Protoss on small maps, because their sentry and stalker would get out faster. Or what do you mean by random poking? And when were proxy gates undefendable? oO But what many suggested, if you don't change the buildtimes of Zealots (/change the buildtimes not completely) but only of stalkers and sentry, i don't think it will work out bad. I don't know why i'm defending Blizzard,lol. But i think it is a good idea. But obviously requires lots of testing. lol proxy gates are defendable now but are you not thinking at all about what would happen if gateways produced units faster than WG, like the blizz mod suggested? that is why he is saying it would be very hard to stop proxy gates. | ||
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bpork
United States23 Posts
But like previous posters said, we do not have anything concrete. I do give props to Blizzard to for looking into what seems to be a pretty bleh matchup from a player and spectator perspective.. hopefully what they come up with will move the game forward  On April 23 2011 03:18 ShotoElite wrote: so....why are they trying to change it? PvP is not broken and doesn't need any fixing whatsoever. There are plenty of counters to 4gate, there is nothing to fix if you are just lazy or unwilling to practice these counters. I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? | ||
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DNA61289
United States665 Posts
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote: I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? Being better than your opponent. So is what is being said that warpgate research time will be increased, while slight changes to the buildtimes of the units, and then warpgates will take time off of those build times like it already does? Maybe have warpgates not take time off of any unit, unless Im wrong that they take 5 seconds off of the buildtimes. Anyway glad they see 4gate pvp as a problem. Because it is already hard enough to avoid colossus wars | ||
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ShotoElite
United States79 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:20 Tor wrote: Because 4gate defines the match-up, which isn't good for the game. I don't understand? If players choose to repeatedly do 4gate even with valid strategies to stop it, doesn't that make the matchup subjectively player defined? There is no 'right' way to play the game. Noone says you HAVE to 4 gate. Blizzard once said that they don't want to balance around the metagame, but this is precisely what I think they are doing. | ||
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TT1
Canada10046 Posts
1st of all 4gate is not an issue and there are several builds u can do that can easily counter 4gate 2nd of all if they really did want to fix 4gate this could have been done by simply fixing the FF bug where a zealot can spot on top of the high ground by going to the corner of an FF, which then ables the 4gater to warpin units on top of the high ground | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
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Scruff
Singapore509 Posts
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote: I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? Lol yea me too, 4 gates come before every things else finish so 4 gates just fucking kill you already | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:54 Dommk wrote: Hmm the timings for the more aggressive pokings 15-20 seconds before Warpgate is done for majority of builds, which gives toss enough time to delay with their one forcefield and get 2-3 Gateways transforming. The builds like the one Select/Fenix/QXC do will most likely be much much harder to defend, that instant warpin bypassing a production cycle is sometimes crucial when trying to survive, especially if you go double sentry to try and be "safe", you might just die going double sentry. Most likely he means if the terran happens to get up the ramp now, it can screw over the Protoss pretty badly since units will be streaming out of gateways longer and will be much easier to catch units, especially with more aggressive builds that will get up your ramp even if you get 2 sentries, I think Fenix did something like that--the protoss narrowly skirted death when his warpgates finished and was able to bypass a production cycle and warp-in sentry instantly to throw another FF whilst his last one was running out. The version Select does that is almost impossible to scout because he leads with an SCV+Marine to clear out Xel'Naga towers might be brutal :o It's far too early to say. If build time is reduced by enough, pokes will be even easier to deal with, because rather than having, say, 1 zealot/1 stalker out when T gets to your ramp, you will already have the sentry as well. My personal opinion though, is that P could hold against pokes perfectly fine even without the gateway buff. I really think a lot of to P players do not adequately time their builds to deal with T pokes, and there a wide variety of P openings building a 2nd gateway on 22 that are unexplored by most players. These openings crush early T pressure very hard. | ||
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