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United States7483 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:02 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 02:00 Whitewing wrote:
Easy mode fix: Have warpgates warp in units near your nexus or a warp prism, and require a separate upgrade to warp them in from pylons.
*BAM* That would greatly hurt the toss early game. where would the pylon WG upgrade be located? Council tech? robo? gate?
It wouldn't hurt them that badly, they'd lose the 4 warp gate timing that eliminates defender's advantage, but they'd still be able to pump out the same number of units at that time, and walk them over to the enemy base if they wanted to. There would be no difference defensively, and for the mid-late game you'd research another upgrade, no biggie. You could even make the other upgrade really cheap, probably put it on the cybernetics core still. The idea is just to slow the 4 gate timing sufficiently to hinder the warp gate rush.
As for why 4 warp gate is so strong: it isn't that the protoss gateway units are better than other race's units, it's the sudden influx of a large number of units. The enemy is generally caught teching or expanding when a 4 warp gate hits (or else they hold it off no problem) and just doesn't have enoguh stuff. It has nothing really to do with the strengths or weaknesses of the units.
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I'm kind of sad if Protoss plays like terran with gateways being just like barracks for a long period of time. There has to be a better way to fix the mirror match than to delay or destroy a fundamental race characteristic. Personally I think the immortal should be the "defenders advantage" unit, but how do you change anything without changing balance versus the other races.
Hopefully it will end up being a small change and not make new windows of huge strength of weakness for toss, or change their coolest attribute, warping stuff in.
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On April 23 2011 02:11 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So proxy gates will become undefendable again, and terrans will win games by random poking at Ps ramp, again.
Sounds like fun.
I hope it works out better than it does in my mind lol
The Warpgates never were a solution to random poking of Terrans.
Indeed, the random poking did occur most of the time before warpgates were finished. They were a problem because the sentry was not out, the sentry you needed to build in a gateway.
I think so. DQ is a good example.
But that still has nothing to do with warpgates. It had to do with the bad maps.
And even this change would make it better for Protoss on small maps, because their sentry and stalker would get out faster.
Or what do you mean by random poking?
And when were proxy gates undefendable? oO
But what many suggested, if you don't change the buildtimes of Zealots (/change the buildtimes not completely) but only of stalkers and sentry, i don't think it will work out bad.
I don't know why i'm defending Blizzard,lol. But i think it is a good idea. But obviously requires lots of testing.
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On April 23 2011 02:04 masterbreti wrote:
this sucks tbh. How else will i get into masters without my 4 gate. sucks for those of us stuck in a crappy league and have only our 4 gate to get us out. Hope this does not change protoss chesse potential.
maybe will have to get good at cannon rushes T_T
Uh..what? "Sucks for those of us stuck in a crappy league?" I'm not trying to be a jerk but you should practice P's incredibly powerful timings within a macro setting. 4 gating into Masters is a shallow path and you'll get decimated once you arrive if that's all you have (unless you've got the timing and control of White Ra...doubtful).
You're in a crappy league because you're not good enough to get promoted out of it, 4 gate or not. Your answer is practice / analysis / tutorial....not 4 gate.
On topic: as a Z, I feel like proxy gate shenanigans will become viable again, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion. I'd rather defend that with good scouting than get hit with a deadly 5-6 gate timing. "Just made a round of drones, looking goo--oh shit, toss is pushing out at weird timing."
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i really dislike the planned idea of reducing the standard build time of gateway units.
how is a terran ever supposed to put on early pressure against a protoss if we need 60+ seconds to cross a map and our units have the same build time? terran will be FORCED into playing long games, which i think is bad for the game overall.
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I understand balance will be an issue for things like 2 gate proxy, but in terms of game play other than those situations, I think having the gateway as a viable alternative to warp gates is great and I have actually wanted it like that for awhile.
Now units can be queued (I'm not saying spam 5 zealots per gateway, but that a second one can be queued when the first is 3/4 the way done leading to more efficient macro during battles) but warp gates will still obviously be very useful. I think it would also be cool if they allowed HTs to spawn with a bit more energy if they are made from a gateway... but I guess that's another topic so I will just leave it at that.
Hopefully they don't make proxy gateways ridiculously good... though I'm sure we will see plenty at least for a little on ladder if they decrease the build time of zealots.
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i'm glad they are looking for answers, i would take the one example given with a huge grain of salt. blizzard knows the problems it may cause so im sure that they wont do anything rash
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On April 22 2011 23:33 AlBundy wrote:
Also I noticed that a lot of people are playing "game devs" in this thread. Any balance / number tweaking suggestion is utterly USELESS ok, thank you very much. I appreciate the effort but it's really useless.
How is it useless? I have a BFA in product design, and I don't even feel that non-designers' input is useless. As a designer, I support the idea of reversing gateway and warp gate cooldowns, and nerfing the colossus as opposed to the HT.
'USELESS' suggestions?
Numbers? Sure.
Balance? Maybe.
Suggestions on how to make SC2 even more enjoyable for players and spectators? Of course we can make those suggestions, and we have collectively validated some pretty good ideas that improve SC2 based on Blizzard's own goals (strategic variety within PvP and other matchups).
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Not even a day since that topic came up and yet 28 pages of comments. I feel some kind of impatience about patching "the race that is not imbalanced" :O
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People complain sooooo much about PvP and when Blizzard say that they're doing something about it people complain even more.
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Hell its about time they started trying to implement some changes to 4gate. Just hope this doesn't turn into the bunker equivalent for Protoss where blizzard is just switching numbers back and forth each patch and never actually stick to the change.
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Best suggestion I have ever heard. Build time reduction on immortal. the only thing abusable by that is a 3 gate immortal push against a close pos fe terran. But it would only be 5 secs or something like that and 15 secs is still gonna kill the terran if he wasnt ready.
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it would be pretty funny if these proposed changes made toss even better haha
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On April 22 2011 17:46 dezi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns? I think the might decrease the no-warp-time by 5sec each or sth. like this. I would prefer to see the warp technology removed and the up only giving the decreased buildtimes. No more off pylon warpin (maybe only allow this at warp prisms > makes them so much more usefull) and one could also give the Amulet back to the Toss (no instant storms cause you now have to build "normal").
maybe warp in only within the ''sensor tower'' type range centered around the nexus.
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The thing that I have a problem with is, I HAVE A SOLUTION that does nothing to the game and simply changes the mindset of early protoss in the early game. At first it was a more cutesy build with two cannons if they 4-gate and going for phoenix harass. This had some holes in that that I found playing with masters level players, but the idea of an early forge for safety and upgrades are amazing no matter what was solid IMO.
Then I saw Naniwa play PvP, and use his gateway wall in. I adapted the two gates, and replaced the pylon with a cannon. I'm now invincible vs a 4 gate push with proper control (1 zealot outside the wall to keep other zeals off the cannon, sentries produced as needed but prioritizing stalkers off 3 gates)
With good scouting you can figure out what he's doing expanding wise, and you are in a position where you have 1/1 nearing completion, blink either done or getting started, and the option of taking an expand or punishing an expand.
I feel that it's a very solid way of playing, and things like this are what we need to fix PvP, not fucking balance changes....
replays:
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On April 23 2011 02:39 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:46 dezi wrote:On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns? I think the might decrease the no-warp-time by 5sec each or sth. like this. I would prefer to see the warp technology removed and the up only giving the decreased buildtimes. No more off pylon warpin (maybe only allow this at warp prisms > makes them so much more usefull) and one could also give the Amulet back to the Toss (no instant storms cause you now have to build "normal"). maybe warp in only within the ''sensor tower'' type range centered around the nexus.
Nice idea. Make more sense if it was an area around the the specific gateway though. Make for some interesting and very risky proxy gate strats that'd no more powerful than 4wg is now.
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STOP TRYING TO MAKE BLIZZARD CHANGE YOUR INADEQUACIES!
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All Blizzard needs to do is make sure that all maps have a ramp and change it so a Force Field also blocks vision of the whole ramp.
Done.
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OK this seams like it'd be really good for pvp, but I play zerg annd its kinda frustrating knowing they are balancing something that wasnt a problem to me at all in the ZvP matchup. Where I(and presumably most zergs) are having trouble with is the late game toss.
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Put warpgate in robo, reduce research time of warpgate a bit.
Using the blizzard fix, i dont see why gateway research time should be lowered. they can still produce units and defend with forcefield.
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EPT
