EPTThat's not his point.
PvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 26
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
That's not his point. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:42 oxxo wrote: Very true. In fact it seems like people complain about P T1 being weak when they are going against upgraded T1 w/out their own upgrades (stim/conc, ling speed/roach speed, vs no charge/blink). P T1 is more than fine. The problem is that our unit specific upgrades are part of one of the weaker lategame tech paths(generally, robo > templar > stargate in terms of safety) and is significantly harder to reach. We can't go straight into teching because we need to pour a lot of resources into early units to deal with fast roaches/marines(stutter step effectively neutralizes zealots without charge and they're incredibly cost effective against stalkers, our only hope is to split up the ball with sentries which cost 100 gas per). It's basically equivalent to needing an armory to get stim/concussive. Partially related, stalkers have the worst upgrade scaling in the game. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
At least it ends fast. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:44 Golgotha wrote: in a pvp having that WG research finish asap is life or death. Well unless one of you is playing post patch and the other is playing pre patch that isn't going to matter in PvP b/c your both still going to get warp gate ASAP. I was talking about the other match ups where marauders run up your ramp and you're screaming for warp gate to get done. If that's a common thing that goes down then this would be a problem. My guess is you can chrono a sentry out and probably be fine. (probably) | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:41 Numy wrote: Warp in doesn't define Protoss. Saying it does is ludicrous. Er, pretty sure it is. Wasn't in stressed in the Alpha/Beta that Warpgate wasn't supposed to be a choice and they balanced engagements given that Protoss has warpgates? Mid/Late game gateway units won't work without Warpgates as Protoss builds purely based on reaction. There is a fine line in balance between Stalkers, Sentries and Zealots. If you see a ton of Lings then you need to warp in a sentry or zealot asap, if you have to wait 30-40seconds then it can be too late. Not to mention they would have to bring KA amulet back and maybe increase sentry starting energy to compensate for the new build times. Warp gates mean Sentries get 40seconds of energy they would not have got if built from a gateway, + have to buff Protoss gateway units because in almost every single end game fight, Protoss always relies in warp-ins to support their army. Too big of a mess getting rid of Warpgates | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
*BAM* | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:55 ampson wrote: If this does go through, I'm gonna make a bunch of proxy 2 gates vs every race but terran. It will be kinda hilarious if they decrease zealot build time. Only it will be more all-in than makarax because gateways can't lift off. lol i hate you. imma have to scout my base even more now cuz once that gate is down the zealot pretty much comes out immediately. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:51 Daralii wrote: The problem is that our unit specific upgrades are part of one of the weaker lategame tech paths(generally, robo > templar > stargate in terms of safety) and is significantly harder to reach. We can't go straight into teching because we need to pour a lot of resources into early units to deal with fast roaches/marines(stutter step effectively neutralizes zealots without charge and they're incredibly cost effective against stalkers, our only hope is to split up the ball with sentries which cost 100 gas per). It's basically equivalent to needing an armory to get stim/concussive. Partially related, stalkers have the worst upgrade scaling in the game. Well, this is not the thread to articulate the "my units are weaker" myth/argument, but I cannot help but emphasize the point that if Protoss early game units were in fact the weakest, then why is the 4gate such a ridiculously hard thing to deal with? If all three races have defender's advantage, shouldn't the 4gate often end in a wash? Heck, we've even been seeing 3gate pressure ending games, as well as the newly popularized 4gate expand play. Instead you'll generally see the entire opposing army dead, and the Protoss player with X# of zealots and X# of stalkers remaining, waltzing into your main, with no hope of your reinforcements stopping them. The risk/reward ratio for rushing to warpgate aggression is skewed too heavily in the favor of warpgate rushing. I think this is what Blizzard wants to "fix". | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
Be much better off moving it over to the Twilight council; I'd say Templar Archives but that would completely screw over DT's, unless they get rid of the Dark Shrine. Makes sense to be more to the "energy" tech since Warp Gates is a hidden boost to energy units; while on cool down they gain energy -- while in build time they don't. If I'm not mistaken that is ~20 energy. Additionally it would attempt to balance PvP mass colossus as the warp gate army would be extremely mobile. | ||
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djcube
United States985 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:00 Whitewing wrote: Easy mode fix: Have warpgates warp in units near your nexus or a warp prism, and require a separate upgrade to warp them in from pylons. *BAM* That would greatly hurt the toss early game. where would the pylon WG upgrade be located? Council tech? robo? gate? | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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bingobango
26 Posts
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
maybe will have to get good at cannon rushes T_T | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
Why not revert zealot build time to produce faster and just buff zerglings so they're not so useless against zealots. If I remember correctly in Broodwar it took 3 zerglings to beat 1 zealot but in SC2 it takes 4. And I think this is because SC2 zerglings have slower attack speed compared to BW lings. | ||
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Cataphract
United States69 Posts
Done. 4gate is still viable against other races(lol), but if you are 4gating another toss, they will get reinforcements faster. Gateway build time for Zealot: 33 seconds Warp Gate time for Zealot: 28 seconds cooldown, 5 second warp in (33 seconds total) Gateway build time for Zealot with Warp Gate upgrade: 28 seconds So that way, if you are getting 4 gated, if your macro is up to snuff, you will get your units out and attacking 5 seconds earlier. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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