EPT
Definitely a fan of delaying warp gate tech and buffing gateway speed (it doesn't make sense that warp in is faster??) -- how it's implemented though, I will leave it to Blizz since really, that's all we can do.
PvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 30
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bpork
United States23 Posts
Definitely a fan of delaying warp gate tech and buffing gateway speed (it doesn't make sense that warp in is faster??) -- how it's implemented though, I will leave it to Blizz since really, that's all we can do. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Improve gateway units, put warpgate on dark shrine. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
If this actually helps develop a more macro oriented game I'm all for it. If they only tack 30 seconds or so on top of the warp gate timing then the only builds that will come of it are fast robos for early immortals (that actually work). | ||
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kvn4444
1510 Posts
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
I don't understand? If players choose to repeatedly do 4gate even with valid strategies to stop it, doesn't that make the matchup subjectively player defined? There is no 'right' way to play the game. Noone says you HAVE to 4 gate The problem is when a strategy is so powerful that you are forced into playing to counter it. All of a sudden you are limiting playstyles that make for more interesting games. With 4gating you create a situation where neither player can expand. You create a situation where if you decide to defend you are forced to turtle excessively or react using 4gates of your own (and from what i've seen even the slightest delay in your reaction leads to a 4 unit smaller army and you lose) Also, when I watch pro level players consistently lose to 4gates in pvp I find it hard to believe that there are tonnes of counters to 4gate. And I certainly dont want to watch 4gate vs 4gate even at the highest level of play. It's not about balancing, because you can't typically say a mirror match is imbalanced. It's about creating a good fun game, that is dynamic and interesting not only to play but to watch. | ||
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ShotoElite
United States79 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote: I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:09 Kenod wrote: You ever played a little game called Starcraft 2 and not Starcraft Brood War ? You claimed that warp-gate mechanics define protoss. Which is not the case at all. Protoss are defined by higher food cost and more powerful individual units (ie 1 zealot vs 1 marine). By your definition BW protoss are terran. Which is completely inaccurate and illogical. SC2 protoss are far more like terran than BW protoss ever were. Warpgates have always been kind of stupid lorewise because a gateway is actually warping in units already. So a warpgate shouldn't alter the build time at all, really. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:36 DarkRise wrote: Would 7RR into speedlings be a problem? The only issue will be for poor Protoss players who don't know how to make constant unit production needing that insta Sentry and dieing because of it. | ||
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Karn3
United Kingdom134 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote: 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad. Are you trolling? | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:39 Tor wrote: The problem is when a strategy is so powerful that you are forced into playing to counter it. All of a sudden you are limiting playstyles that make for more interesting games. With 4gating you create a situation where neither player can expand. You create a situation where if you decide to defend you are forced to turtle excessively or react using 4gates of your own (and from what i've seen even the slightest delay in your reaction leads to a 4 unit smaller army and you lose) Also, when I watch pro level players consistently lose to 4gates in pvp I find it hard to believe that there are tonnes of counters to 4gate. And I certainly dont want to watch 4gate vs 4gate even at the highest level of play. It's not about balancing, because you can't typically say a mirror match is imbalanced. It's about creating a good fun game, that is dynamic and interesting not only to play but to watch. Shouldn't you be concerned about balance first though? I really think that they should be paying attention to the other, nonmirror matchups before looking at one which is 100% guaranteed to be balanced... and watching a Protoss make a huge ass deathball and attack is more boring to watch than 4gate wars - in 4gate wars you at least get to watch intense micro battles to determine the victor. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote: 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad. Ok if it's so easy to hold why each time we see a PvP the guy who don't 4 gate die in painfull way? Do you think someone can hold a perfect executed 4gate from a player like MC. I don't think so, that's why they try to fix it. | ||
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Bulldozor
Denmark74 Posts
Proxygate will be tremendously strong with a faster buildtime on zealots and the longer buildtime on bunker last patch.. Thoughts? | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
One other way blizzard could protect against 4-gates...is with the map designs. What if each base had a xel-naga watch tower inside of their base? This would make it so much easier to defend proxy pylons and 4 gates (not to mention cannon rushing, proxy racks and the other cheese out there). They could also get rid of the stupid weeds/smoke screens that really facilitate a lot of these cheesy strategies. SC2 should be a strategy game like chess...not a game of hide and seek of the pylon. Then if Blizzard is desperate...they could introduce a new unit to counter this problem. What about the shield battery coming back? Would make defending 4 gate (and cheese in general) much easier? Blizzard is ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room...and that is colossi. There is a fix... Buff the stupid immortal. Presently it isn't a very cost effective unit...it is meant to counter roaches but due to its build time easily gets overrun by roach spam. Same vs rauders...it's just not super effective vs them. As for PvP on paper they should be great! They can blast stalkers and colossi...reality is a different story though because of their lousy range. The Immortal needs to have decreased build time and possibly a range increase (it's lousy range is a huge liability in big confrontations). Maybe also to encourage the immortal to be used more in late game situations, decrease it's supply from 4 to 3 as well. The colossi on the other hand...has to have thermal lance nerfed...as a unit itself it's not too bad but their range is just so ridiculous with thermal lance that it discourages micro and encourages mindless stalker/colossi balls. Maybe to compensate increase the range of collosi without lance by 1 to offset a nerf of say 2 to the range upgrade. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Befree
695 Posts
I really look forward to their solution, it's gonna take something creative. | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
Analyzing the current benefits: 1)Faster build time 2)Can warp in wherever theres a pylon or a warp prism We can have one upgrade called warp gate technology at the cyber core that only allows warping in of units and does not decrease the regular gateway build time. The other new upgrade's effect can be to decrease the build time of warping in units to that of the current time. We can tentatively place this at the nexus, with a cyber core requirement to be researched. By splitting upgrades, we decrease the effectiveness of early warpgate pushes in PvP, while maintaining its effectiveness in other matchups. | ||
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bpork
United States23 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote: 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad. I mean, we're on a starcraft forum. If I can't voice out that PvP is boring, then wtf? An opinion is an opinion so to each their own. I loved watching a ZvZ mirror that Sheth played against a random zerg and they had a mirror match of ling/baneling. I also learned a lot too, but I think the difference is the excitement that each unit brings in that situation since lings and banelings are going all over the place microing. A 4 gate is a bunch of zealots and stalkers doing tons of micro. As a protoss, I'd imagine this is great to see for as you said learning etc, but to someone who does not play the race, it is boring to me. I think all the mirrors are micro intensive. Thanks for the examples - I'll see what that looks like. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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