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On April 23 2011 04:28 ShotoElite wrote:
This brings me to 4gate. I consider 4gate to be a build that is necessary to soft counter but not necessarily blind counter and what pros (or all protoss players) should do is develop a build or strategy that takes this into consideration. Blind countering 4gate is bad because it will put you behind if the opponent is not doing a 4gate. This makes it necessary to develop builds that will absolutely stomp/crush 4gate while not sacrificing much of anything and coming out ahead of your opponent.
People have tried over and over to develop build to counter 4 gate. The problem with 4 gate is there is the "dead time" between when your probe dies to the stalker and before you can get an obs where he can drop the other gates freely. There is no way you should be able to totally scout a 4 gate, you should only have strong suspicions. Thus you do have to blind counter.
Let me sort of brief the history of 4 gate as it shows there is a pattern of people just figuring out new better ways to 4 gate.
Start
Korean 4 gate (pylons in mineral line, no units before WG's) emerges.
Protoss players figure out they can just get a Stalker first instead of a sentry and deny the probe, the stalker/zealot combo attack emerges as a counter
Players figure out proper forcefields can negate the zealots, pure stalker 4 gates emerge to directly counter this
Next people realize that if you do a 4 gate all stalkers but with one sentry defensively you can survive pure stalker, players realize you can then warp zealots up the ramp making thier sentry useless.
Then people think that you can work on using your original stalker/zealot to hunt probes and deny the first pylon, players counter by making 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and dropping a backup pylon farther out so losing the probe is only a minor problem.
The YungHwa 3 Stalker build emerges, players realize you can just send 2 probes and there is little to no chance on big maps that both will be found.
End/Current Metagame
The only reason Blizzard would want to change PvP and 4gate is if soft countering 4gate is impossible, which I do not think is the case. The 3 stalker rush that Artosis does is what I believe is a stepping stone in innovation to developing a build that can pave the way for the future of PvP: + Show Spoiler +Although there are problems to the build, it is proof of concept, and I think people shouldn't be so hasty to result to changing the actual game.
It dies if you don't find the pylon, and it dies if they send 2 probes. It was a cool thing on paper, but as demonstrated in 4 gates history above, people will just figure out better ways to 4 gate.
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Canada13378 Posts
On April 23 2011 04:44 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:28 ShotoElite wrote:
This brings me to 4gate. I consider 4gate to be a build that is necessary to soft counter but not necessarily blind counter and what pros (or all protoss players) should do is develop a build or strategy that takes this into consideration. Blind countering 4gate is bad because it will put you behind if the opponent is not doing a 4gate. This makes it necessary to develop builds that will absolutely stomp/crush 4gate while not sacrificing much of anything and coming out ahead of your opponent. People have tried over and over to develop build to counter 4 gate. The problem with 4 gate is there is the "dead time" between when your probe dies to the stalker and before you can get an obs where he can drop the other gates freely. There is no way you should be able to totally scout a 4 gate, you should only have strong suspicions. Thus you do have to blind counter. Let me sort of brief the history of 4 gate as it shows there is a pattern of people just figuring out new better ways to 4 gate. StartKorean 4 gate (pylons in mineral line, no units before WG's) emerges. Protoss players figure out they can just get a Stalker first instead of a sentry and deny the probe, the stalker/zealot combo attack emerges as a counter Players figure out proper forcefields can negate the zealots, pure stalker 4 gates emerge to directly counter this Next people realize that if you do a 4 gate all stalkers but with one sentry defensively you can survive pure stalker, players realize you can then warp zealots up the ramp making thier sentry useless. Then people think that you can work on using your original stalker/zealot to hunt probes and deny the first pylon, players counter by making 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and dropping a backup pylon farther out so losing the probe is only a minor problem. The YungHwa 3 Stalker build emerges, players realize you can just send 2 probes and there is little to no chance on big maps that both will be found. End/Current MetagameShow nested quote +The only reason Blizzard would want to change PvP and 4gate is if soft countering 4gate is impossible, which I do not think is the case. The 3 stalker rush that Artosis does is what I believe is a stepping stone in innovation to developing a build that can pave the way for the future of PvP: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb_X8Jlfj5g&feature=channel_video_title Although there are problems to the build, it is proof of concept, and I think people shouldn't be so hasty to result to changing the actual game. It dies if you don't find the pylon, and it dies if they send 2 probes. It was a cool thing on paper, but as demonstrated in 4 gates history above, people will just figure out better ways to 4 gate.
Very succinct description diamond lets hope this changes in coming weeks :D
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IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example).
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On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example).
People have tried to use 3 gate and sentries to defend but then you will not have enough DPS to take out the pylons at your ramp then they warp up zealots and you will never be able to keep up in production.
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Shit hit quote instead of edit sorry.
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On April 23 2011 03:45 ShotoElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 03:21 bpork wrote:
I'm curious - what are the many counters to 4 gate? 3 stalker rush that Artosis does 2 gate pressure that adelscott does with no gas defensive 4gate of your own just owns offensive 4gate I don't understand those who complain about dying to 4gate. It is easy to stop, and you are way ahead when you do stop it. As for the spectator perspective....who cares what they think about gameplay? I think golf is boring to watch so I don't watch it. I think baseball is boring so I don't watch it. I don't complain that golf should be played differently because I don't like the way it looks as a spectator. I LIKE watching PvP because I learn tons from it as a player and it is easily the most micro intensive and exciting matchup in the game. If you don't like it, then too bad.
White-ra does 3 stalkers rush and lost to MC easily.
2 gates pressure follow up with 4 gates for sure, There's no other transition because of late gas.
defensive 4 gates, well, oh wait does that mean 4 gates vs 4 gates ? You sir, are a winner.
I'm a protoss, and any time when I scout no 2nd gas, it mean 4 gates already. The only chance to response is steal his 2 gas then make my own 4 gates + late 2nd gas and only 1 probe on that, so if i could defend, i could have quicker robot or tech than him.
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On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example).
The very first game I loaded up on your history was you losing to a 4 gate while attempting to tech to blink on a 3 gate. Please don't suggest you know how to handle 4gate better than high level pros.
And I don't think that Blizzard is overreacting at all. I was the creator of that thread that they replied to and it's just a mirror of every concern and frustration that has come with PvP since beta. I guess they finally realized that it's just embarassing to leave a MU that broken and terrible for almost a year. And the worst thing about it is that I don't think it will come remotely close to fixing it as expansions are probably still going to mean death due to the nature of the race.
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On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example).
4 gate is a massive problem on both taldarim and scrapstation. You 4gate, AND micro better than the other guy, or you die. There is no other non-cheese option, and on taldarim, you basically have to 4gate because finding the other guy in time is going to be a problem. It's only less of a problem on other maps, but even then it's almost impossible.
If it makes it past the 4gate stage, life still sucks because the 3 tech options hard counter each other. stargate>robo>council>stargate. Also, if you decided to expo and the other guy has a robo, you get rolled 99% of the time by a 2 colossus rush. It's not even a close fight unless you pull a LOT of probes, which defeats the purpose of expoing in the first place.
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Hell, it's about damn time.
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On April 23 2011 05:02 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example). The very first game I loaded up on your history was you losing to a 4 gate while attempting to tech to blink on a 3 gate. Please don't suggest you know how to handle 4gate better than high level pros.
Ouch, owned..... Yea 3 gate is not really a counter to 4 gate.
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On April 23 2011 04:54 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example). People have tried to use 3 gate and sentries to defend but then you will not have enough DPS to take out the pylons at your ramp then they warp up zealots and you will never be able to keep up in production.
Actualy, quite a lot of pros defend 4 gate by defensive 3 gate. The key is knowing when to Forcefield.
If they try to go up your ramp with the initial zealot + 6 stalkers, just FF the army in half and kill off easily 2 stalkers and a zealot. From there on, they are 3 units late = 3 warp cycles late, and they can't afford a 4th cycle of production so you should be equal in units and you have the ramp advantage.
If they wait for the next 4 zealots, know the timing on when they can warp in zealots (it's usually right when the pylon on the bottom of the ramp finishes for a perfect 4 gate). Just FF as he pushes up, you will be facing 4 zealots + 1 zealot or 4 zealots + 1 zealot + 1 stalker vs your 7-8 stalkers. Just micro away from your ramp, kill off a hand full of zealots and a stalker, and then you are good to go when your FF wears off. If they are not doing the 4gate perfectly, you can even have an extra FF after that.
The problem with defensive 3 gate is not that it is hard to hold 4 gate, it is that it is hard to scout if he is actually doing 4 gate... and you can fall a bit behind if he does some other greedy build. But that is the problem for all PvP builds I think, Blizzard should work on that rather than changing the Warpgate mechanism.
On April 23 2011 05:02 Resilient wrote:
The very first game I loaded up on your history was you losing to a 4 gate while attempting to tech to blink on a 3 gate. Please don't suggest you know how to handle 4gate better than high level pros.
LOL, actually I'll send you the replay if you want, I owned the 4 gate in that game  The guy saw my sentry and didn't even try to go up my ramp because he was a bit off on his timing. I then proceeded to lose the game in the Mid game because my opponent knwe I was ahead and cheesed some DTs ^^ I was pretty angry losing that game But yeah, don't attack me on a game that really proves my point
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Interesting to see how they implement changes without making proxy Gates really strong.
2Gate (chrono zealots)in beta was pretty damn strong, vs. Zerg specifically, I wonder if it will make a comeback
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Warpgates have always been an additional random factor. The tech should be postponed to the mid game. It could be researched in the forge or the twilight council. Or the research time could be increased very much.
The biggest problem in PvP has always been, that the warpgates negate any distance. There was no cooldown to supply the frontline with new troops. That shifts the strategies. You can't rely on a delay until the troops get to you. Instead, you are immediately under pressure. I always had the impression that this fact locks in the strategies.
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I don't remember 4 gate being a problem. It may be really fucking hard to pull off offensively and hard to pull of defensively, but that is part of a game that is challenging.
hmrpf.
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On April 23 2011 05:07 DreamSailor wrote:
Interesting to see how they implement changes without making proxy Gates really strong.
2Gate (chrono zealots)in beta was pretty damn strong, vs. Zerg specifically, I wonder if it will make a comeback
Just increase the build time of the gateways while decreasing the build time of the tier 1 units.
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Just make it so warping in units take additional damage again. Why was that even removed? Oh, you're warping up my ramp by my stalkers? Well now your zealots died. Good luck, try again.
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You guys need to stop theorycrafting solutions and just go with the flow, especially since most of the changes proposed needlessly complicate the game/change more things than you guys realize/are just plain bad.
And besides they said they are looking into that matchup, its not 100% certain the change they gave as an example will actually be the change. Lets just chill and hope it improves the games.
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On April 23 2011 05:07 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:54 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example). People have tried to use 3 gate and sentries to defend but then you will not have enough DPS to take out the pylons at your ramp then they warp up zealots and you will never be able to keep up in production. Actualy, quite a lot of pros defend 4 gate by defensive 3 gate. The key is knowing when to Forcefield. If they try to go up your ramp with the initial zealot + 6 stalkers, just FF the army in half and kill off easily 2 stalkers and a zealot. From there on, they are 3 units late = 3 warp cycles late, and they can't afford a 4th cycle of production so you should be equal in units and you have the ramp advantage. If they wait for the next 4 zealots, know the timing on when they can warp in zealots (it's usually right when the pylon on the bottom of the ramp finishes for a perfect 4 gate). Just FF as he pushes up, you will be facing 4 zealots + 1 zealot or 4 zealots + 1 zealot + 1 stalker vs your 7-8 stalkers. Just micro away from your ramp, kill off a hand full of zealots and a stalker, and then you are good to go when your FF wears off. If they are not doing the 4gate perfectly, you can even have an extra FF after that. The problem with defensive 3 gate is not that it is hard to hold 4 gate, it is that it is hard to scout if he is actually doing 4 gate... and you can fall a bit behind if he does some other greedy build. But that is the problem for all PvP builds I think, Blizzard should work on that rather than changing the Warpgate mechanism.
What pro games are you watching? I know you what you are saying but any sentry heavy builds die as you will be short on stalkers. Remember for every one sentry you have you are down 2 stalkers in a way.
I can't remember a sentry heavy 3 gate defending 4 gate in any recent major pro game....
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On April 23 2011 05:09 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 05:07 DreamSailor wrote:
Interesting to see how they implement changes without making proxy Gates really strong.
2Gate (chrono zealots)in beta was pretty damn strong, vs. Zerg specifically, I wonder if it will make a comeback Just increase the build time of the gateways while decreasing the build time of the tier 1 units.
But then you may break some of the current balances, its already incredibly hard to hold 6pool and the like as Protoss if you scout it late.
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On April 23 2011 05:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 05:07 Geiko wrote:On April 23 2011 04:54 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 23 2011 04:51 Geiko wrote:
IMO, Blizzard people are a bit overreacting here due to the amount of QQ from protoss players who find it easier to blame there loss on game design rather than their own flaws.
4 Gate is only really a problem on Tal Darim Altar and Scrap Station where you don't have a small ramp. On other maps, a three gate with one or two sentries and stalkers beat a 4 gate easily (don't believe me ? Geiko.813 on EU server) so I wouldn't worry too much about high level PvP. Pros only lose to 4 gate because a) they are too greedy sometimes and 4 gate punishes that b) Tech paths in mid game hard counter each other (robo vs blink vs stargate) and encourage point a).
If they feel it is really much easier to 4 gate then to defend 4 gate at lower levels, a quick and easy fix would be to prevent warping in behind a ForceFielded ramp. But I don't feel even that should be necessary, there are plenty of other all ins in this game much harder to deal with than 4 gate in PvP and they aren't doing anything about that (3 racks before orbital in TvP for example). People have tried to use 3 gate and sentries to defend but then you will not have enough DPS to take out the pylons at your ramp then they warp up zealots and you will never be able to keep up in production. Actualy, quite a lot of pros defend 4 gate by defensive 3 gate. The key is knowing when to Forcefield. If they try to go up your ramp with the initial zealot + 6 stalkers, just FF the army in half and kill off easily 2 stalkers and a zealot. From there on, they are 3 units late = 3 warp cycles late, and they can't afford a 4th cycle of production so you should be equal in units and you have the ramp advantage. If they wait for the next 4 zealots, know the timing on when they can warp in zealots (it's usually right when the pylon on the bottom of the ramp finishes for a perfect 4 gate). Just FF as he pushes up, you will be facing 4 zealots + 1 zealot or 4 zealots + 1 zealot + 1 stalker vs your 7-8 stalkers. Just micro away from your ramp, kill off a hand full of zealots and a stalker, and then you are good to go when your FF wears off. If they are not doing the 4gate perfectly, you can even have an extra FF after that. The problem with defensive 3 gate is not that it is hard to hold 4 gate, it is that it is hard to scout if he is actually doing 4 gate... and you can fall a bit behind if he does some other greedy build. But that is the problem for all PvP builds I think, Blizzard should work on that rather than changing the Warpgate mechanism. What pro games are you watching? I know you what you are saying but any sentry heavy builds die as you will be short on stalkers. Remember for every one sentry you have you are down 2 stalkers in a way. I can't remember a sentry heavy 3 gate defending 4 gate in any recent major pro game....
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, I warp in only 1 sentry and only stalkers after that.
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EPT
