I havent read all of the post so im sorry if this suggestion has come up before.
From what I've read people have been discussion the reduced time on forcefields and more consumtion of energy on sentries when used.
How about adding HP to forcefields instead? To take them down you will need to target them invidually and not just A attack them. The timer of forcefields will ofcourse stay but by attacking them down you can get them down much faster and to make this fair for Protoss, Zerg has to either focus on taking the forcefields down and getting damaged during it or try to survive with forcefields around while trying to engage the protoss army in the best position avaliable.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
Are you brain dead?
Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to)
Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
Are you brain dead?
Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to)
Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post
Yeah, and I said "That's not a good reason to nerf something". And you said you never gave a reason, but clearly you're using my statement as a reason. look wahtever, I'm not getting into an argument about semantics.
Final statement I'm going to make here: If you can't deal with forcefields, that's tough shit for you. Forcefields aren't some magic superweapon that guarantee a win. If they were, we'd have 100% protoss win-rate. It takes skill to use them, and skill to fight them. That's what good pro-level sc2 is about... skill. FFs are as much as aspect of the protoss army now as zealots. Deal with it, and stop QQing over something that isn't as uber-powerful as everyone seems to be making it out to be.
It doesn't need a nerf. Toss have been nerfed enough since the beta, thanks.
imo just reduce the casting range of the sentry, this turns the battle into ways where if he wants to use the ff offensively, his sentries will be in front more for more easy picking. This will still not change the defensive capabilities of FF as well. You can still FF and back away. I really believe the real problem lies with the casting range of the FF able to be casted in a safe distance without having penalties of using it offensively.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent.
Is it fun to comment on balance when you don't play? A 6 pool hits before the cyber-core is even started
On March 21 2011 00:40 Co-lol-sus wrote: toss imba against himself, removes his own ability to micro
lol.
If you get an ad, skip to 7:30
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
IdrA said there are no good NA Zerg....
Tunneling, Burrow..roach would have destroyed that ball (among other things)
ok peeps. like i said before, just make queens massive it solves the problem of blocking the ramp. while, P can still use FF as a means of defense in their own base, cuz no one will try to move queen all the way across the map with the chance of getting it sniped. problem solved.
plus there was just way too many things that July couldve done better. MC was just a more solid player.
On March 22 2011 06:48 ReDeSCh wrote: ok peeps. like i said before, just make queens massive it solves the problem of blocking the ramp. while, P can still use FF as a means of defense in their own base, cuz no one will try to move queen all the way across the map with the chance of getting it sniped. problem solved.
plus there was just way too many things that July couldve done better. MC was just a more solid player.
While I like the pretty cool idea of queens breaking FFs, this would make queens unliftable by phoenix and very vulnerable to void rays.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
My thoughts exactly, either way I think you end up behind. You need spinecrawlers to be able to hold off some of these pushes, especially if they get +1, and guess what they're at your natural. Perfect FF destroy zerg, decent FF make it difficult for zerg.
The crux of the issue is that sentries come too early and overlord speed, drops, burrow, burrow movement, hydralisks, and overseers come too late. You can't scout it well enough and the solid counters for it come way too late.
The problem is that if you build enough spine crawlers and roaches and he isn't going for it, you're behind. If he is going for it and you can't scout it, which you can't against any good protoss, you die.
My solution is not a nerf to the sentry, but instead move overlord speed to hatch tech. That way you can reliably scout what he is going for for a reasonable cost. You could also keep more overlords alive if he is going for a stalker heavy push or a void ray push instead making those all in plays a little easier to deal with.
This way zerg gets to stay alive a bit easier in the early game without making them anymore aggressive(in fact they're less aggressive because that 100 gas and minerals could be 4 more banelings or most of 4 more roaches) and their lair tech is delayed a little bit as well to balance out the fact that they'll more likely get to it in a better position.
Why the fuck was Stallonezone banned for his comment. It was a spolier, and this is beaten to death.
Good post, I've just seen the same thing about 100 times.
EDIT: Just to add something positive, I really enjoyed the idea to make the forcefield cost more enrgy and have them spawn with enough energy to pop a sheild.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
This, and/or forcefield gets cancelled if you unburrow under it ?
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
That's why you scout better. You'll find that the top end players are always running lings up the ramp to see what they can, sacrificing overlords when possible, and keeping lings outside the front to see the forces pushing out. You have speed, you should be running lings all over the place checking for proxy pylons and watching movement paths. The faster you detect a push, the faster you can react to it, giving you more time.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
This, and/or forcefield gets cancelled if you unburrow under it ?
That really wouldnt make much sense, I mean... there's a reason thats not there. You couldn't just dig a hole under a 40 foot concrete barrier and pop up under it. Now, you could go past, so maybe give roaches the ability to crawl underneath and pop up under the army.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
That's why you scout better. You'll find that the top end players are always running lings up the ramp to see what they can, sacrificing overlords when possible, and keeping lings outside the front to see the forces pushing out. You have speed, you should be running lings all over the place checking for proxy pylons and watching movement paths. The faster you detect a push, the faster you can react to it, giving you more time.
No, I mean that in order to defend a 4gate you have to drone before making units or else you have far less workers than the protoss and you're behind before any attack even arrives, and the units you get to defend come out too late to be proactive.
Also, any zerg who wants to get out of gold league will use a ling at the front and control watchtowers - and you can't make a sacrificial overlord go any farther before dying just because you're a better player.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
It shouldnt destroy them both, but if two FF's overlap to much then the old one getting destroyed would be a good idea, if for nothing else then to make more precision and decision into the FF spam.
On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote: and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game. lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo. its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE. 2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that. so you choose.
Yeah this goes back into scouting problems.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
How about Zerg just gets burrow and prepares burrowed Zerglings and Roaches for the Protoss push?
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote: Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.)
The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!
Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
No, 2 base protoss 6gate timing push is designed specifically to counter muta build, if it is done well, it comes to your gate before your mutas arrive. Every zerg knows that you need to scout the protoss between 5 & 6 min, because that's the moment where he commit to something. You don't have overlord speed nor muta at 6min.
Who said anything about mutalisks? Mutalisks take two minutes longer to get than Overseers, which are a fast enough flying unit to scout the Protoss base.
And I contest the need for Zerg to scout Protoss in that window. You don't need to see what your one-base opponent is doing inside his base if you can block every one-base push anyhow.
Zerg players 'know' they need to scout the Protoss between 5 and 6 minutes because they don't build Queens.
On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote: @Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
Zerg can negate the one-base aggression builds without knowing which one is coming, provided the Zerg knows that timing at which each build CAN show up. And Zerg can afford to do so because Protoss is on one base. Once Protoss goes to two bases, Zerg can easily saturate his natural long before the Protoss, and start thinking about a third.
Warp Prism or Blink Stalker plays could be an issue since they skip over a defensive line - those might be more map-dependent. But they're also slower to hit the table, and vulnerable to Zerglings.
EPT
