|
On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
good FFs prevent micro from anyone no matter how good, the onus is completely on the forcefielder. Its hard to empirically prove imbalance, but from the feel of it as a protoss it feels like I've beat a lot of zergs who are way better than me, making far less mistakes than me
|
On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
|
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
|
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote:
There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
I was tossing ideas around in my head, but found that any energy manipulation interacted too much with the other 2 sentry abilities. This idea however accomplishes a lot of the goals we're looking for, but still leaves blocking the ramp nearly indefinitely in a mid-game push extremely strong vs a zerg.
I would say make spine and spore crawlers also crush forcefields (simply making them massive may unablance VRs vs them, but it could be fine) This on top of the 1 forcefield per sentry would allow zerg a better chance at defending those mid-game pushes, as well as an additional benefit to having creep spread.
|
On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
|
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
If that happens, there will officially be no reason to play as protoss.
|
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
|
On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
not to mention you can make mistakes while throwing ffs. I mean I throw down bad ffs all the time (put 3 when i could have had 2, throw one in a stupid spot by accident etc.) that doesn't really matter when any time I move out I'm gonna have at least 10 ffs
|
On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
Then you are truly playing as skilled player vs skilled player, instead of one race vs a different race.
|
On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
|
On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
EMP and feedback are as useful for zerg to deal with FF as your other suggestions.
|
On March 22 2011 04:07 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out. If that happens, there will officially be no reason to play as protoss.
except for, you know, the fact that something being changed doesn't make it useless...
stop crying that the sky is falling at every single nerf, it's getting as tiring as zergs below pro level whining about game balance being the main reason they don't win.
|
Sweet theorycrafting / balance discussion we got going on here.
Seriously, I don't know if there's an answer to this 'problem' people are putting forward. I would stop tossing around ideas of how awesome things could be and instead talk about techniques to mitigate such use of forcefields.
|
On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
|
On March 22 2011 04:08 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out. which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent.
If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
|
On March 22 2011 04:09 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. EMP and feedback are as useful for zerg to deal with FF as your other suggestions.
Does the thread title contain the words "Advice for Zerg Only: Dealing with FF" in it? No. Not everyone on these boards plays zerg. Sometimes terran and *gasp* other toss have trouble against it too.
|
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
They'll probably look at sentries the same way they looked at marines after MKP won the GSL. I honestly can't think of a way to paralyze protoss more than by messing with FF. Not to mention that most of the bitching in this thread is related to not being able to scout what they're supposed to be reacting to (not the lack of a reaction itself) - which is an issue with the game in general and completely unrelated to forcefields.
If I had to guess based on past trends, I'd imagine they'll nerf Colossi, Forcefields and blink before they say "hey wait - maybe these rush builds would be easier to defend against if you had some clue what your opponent is doing, huh?" I just hope that in the midst of any considerations they make, they consider Terran, whose all-in scv rushes against toss have only just recently started being defended on a regular basis, and largely due to FF use.
BTW - if you're looking to make it less good in PvZ and not hurt it in PvT, make it a cooldown ability instead of being energy-based. Early ghosts can almost negate a lot of sentry play if you aren't really, really careful.
|
On March 22 2011 04:14 Rob28 wrote:
If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
And that is exactly why we rarely see nydus play yet we see sentry play all the freakin time - zergs just aren't doing a good job of adapting while protoss did such a good job adapting to nydus!
It has nothing to do with sentry being a far more powerful option overall.
|
On March 22 2011 04:14 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:08 Shiladie wrote:On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out. which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game. If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent. If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
While I agree that we should spend more time finding out how to deal with it rather than QQing about it, Comparing FF to a Nydus is silly. If I could just scout my base and stop FF's then I'd not be so frustrated with them.
|
On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
