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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. | ||
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If FF becomes a missile, then the first FF placed in the game (at the Protoss's own ramp, as defense against an early roach or marauder bust) would be easily confounded by the opponent. The Protoss needs to perfectly split the opponent's army. That's true, it would make early forcefield defence harder. But with the relatively fast speed of the projectile I'm imagining combined with the speed of slow roaches off creep (or non-stim marauders), I'm not convinced it will be an issue. Mostly when you get speed upgrades and are on creep will you be able to feign engagements and back up before you get half your army trapped. I know baiting is still possible but it's very predictive rather than reactive. Add those two together and it would make it slightly easier on other players to force drain some of the sentry's energy. I'm not even approaching this from balance perspective. I'd just like to see more skill based micro and spell usage in general and then maybe compensate for whatever balance changes are needed to facilitate it. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:13 Treemonkeys wrote: So people have been saying awhile now that colossus is "too" powerful but it has to be because otherwise toss gateway units are terrible. MC has completely disproved this, with solid FF usage zealot/stalker/sentry cannot only go toe to toe but completely rape roach/hydra. So toss no longer needs to even get colossus tech to counter zerg ground. The "MC doughnut" is just fucked stupid. Nice that he is that good, but stupid that this skill ceiling is only available to one side. Boring to watch and boring to play against. I hate to say it but I'm getting sick of watching this game, it is too one sided. He didn't disprove anything, he thoroughly outplayed his opponents. MC has shown himself to be just plain BETTER at the game right now than his opponents. + Show Spoiler + I mean, Ciara threw over 20 speedlings at 5 zealots and a couple stalkers and didn't get a single kill due to the difference in their micro skills (in a reasonably open area too >_>) You can't draw conclusions about imbalance without eliminating other variables, and rather than eliminate the variable in skill in these games, most people are just choosing to ignore it. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:51 Whitewing wrote: He didn't disprove anything, he thoroughly outplayed his opponents. MC has shown himself to be just plain BETTER at the game right now than his opponents. + Show Spoiler + I mean, Ciara threw over 20 speedlings at 5 zealots and a couple stalkers and didn't get a single kill due to the difference in their micro skills (in a reasonably open area too >_>) You can't draw conclusions about imbalance without eliminating other variables, and rather than eliminate the variable in skill in these games, most people are just choosing to ignore it. Zerg has no option to outplay someone of MCs caliber. To outplay MC, you have to combine correct guesses with good spawn positions. He also proved you can steamroll a GSL finals level zerg without ever building a colossus. | ||
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Crackensan
United States479 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. Problem solving is at the heart of any RTS. Most of the people I find that cry IMBA are players that don't think outside the box. We have tools at our disposal for working around FF's, O-Lord drops, Nydus play, multi-pronged attacks against the slow deathball, but nobody seems to take advantage of Zergs Speed and Mobility compared to the slower, clumped up, and thus, more powerful T and P armies. This is where I arrived at my statement. If you give enough though about a problem, you can find ways to either circumvent it completley, or deal with it in an efficiant manner. Also, I'm not saying the above solutions are efficiant. I'm saying they are SOLUTIONS that, if worked into a playstyle or build properly, could be used to gain an advantage. Remember that Zerg is not designed to take an army head on. They are the masters of gurilla warfare, and should be used as such. The Swarm mentality of just 1a'ing forces into a DeathBall with Sentry support is silly. And yes, I also acknowledge that early, solid FF use is hard to combat before any of the aforementioned solutions are useable. Again, we have the fastest units in the game for a reason. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Applying problem solving to the game as a whole is fun and all, you can look at a wide range of games and see ways to win. However in the reality of a single game, you are left trying a solve a problem when you don't even know what the problem will be. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:40 Co-lol-sus wrote: toss imba against himself, removes his own ability to micro lol. If you get an ad, skip to 7:30 This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier. For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main. Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...) And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier. For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main. Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...) And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted. Did he even lose a single unit? It's cool if the game has micro abilities that require high skill but it's not cool when the opponent can't affect it much | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier. For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main. Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...) And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted. 1. IdrA should have been harrassing Minigun's base with those slings, not attacking into colossi. 2. Minigun used colossi + storm + FF play, not just FFs. 3. No mutas? 4. No burrow? | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote: Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier. For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main. Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...) And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted. despite the fact that im glad idra actually tried to add some variability in his play the only one who knows why not researching the OL drop upgrade is himself seriously this game is not a good contribution to the ff discussion - to deal with the forcefields you have the options to avoid it(muta), go over or under (roaches and droptech) or kill it (ultra) - none of those were used here (at this point i want to mention that im a zerg player) | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: 1. IdrA should have been harrassing Minigun's base with those slings, not attacking into colossi. 2. Minigun used colossi + storm + FF play, not just FFs. 1. How exactly? He runs in, and gets shredded at the choke. If you watch it, minigun had his natural choke narrowed down to 1 hex with a zealot and a sentry in there and a cannon or 2 guarding. So Idra couldn't go into the natural. Only remaining option would be to take the third and it's cannon, but then minigun stands in Idra's choke, can keep Idra's forces out for a long enough time to take out the second or third hatch and then move on to the main with an even smaller choke to kill that off. 2. Yes, he used colossus and HT, too. In the largest battle, where the FFs were one decicive factor among others. Before he walked out with only gateway units and encircled himself after being surrounded and after that he had lost the colossi and morphed the HT into archons. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote: Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. Losira won against toss today, statement proved false. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:34 pezit wrote: Losira won against toss today, statement proved false. OMG you guys are so dense. | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
On March 22 2011 02:18 pezit wrote: I started watching sc:bw quite late, but hasn't that game had periods of time where some race dominates? Not that i would say protoss dominates in sc2 just yet, but let's say that happens. Maybe it'll just take a while to figure out how to beat it? Indeed. Toss was considered underpowered against for a long long time until FE -> cors became standard and different timing pushes evolved. There has been periods where every race have dominated at separate times just because of popular strategies that were seemingly impossible to beat, but were figured out in the end. I don't think this is any exception. + Show Spoiler [GSL spoiler] + The GSL finals is a horrible example if you want to prove FF's are imbalanced. July sat in his base most of the games just waiting for MC to come to him, which really isn't a good way to counter mass sentries. Hell, one game he even a-moved his army of clumped up roaches straight towards 11 sentries without it even being necessary. The one were his ramp was blocked could've probably been won if he proplerly read MC's strategy earlier and threw down some spines or ran around with lings on the field. Zergs can't sit still in their base and wait around, they need to be active with baiting FF's away from their base, use some speedlings and stall. Effective flanking, splitting, and static defense all combat FF's when you really need to engage. Droning for too long is also a reason to why using FF on ramp is efficient - stop drones earlier and you won't be stuck on your ramp. There's so many calls for nerfing in this thread, so few suggestion how to actually go against it. As always when someone of a high level uses something efficiently in a tournament, people go batshit insane about how imba things are. Was like that in BW, and it sure hasn't changed. Thought most complaints about FF's died out around launch, but I'm not surprised it popped up again, like many other things will when the next trend starts. -_-;; | ||
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Time2Shine
Canada12 Posts
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