I originally posted this in another thread, but now I feel that it is better suited to it's own discussion. Sorry if it's a little hastily written, it's late (early?). Thanks to H0i for the original topic.
GSL Spoilers!!! Sorry I forgot this before, it's actually what woke me up this morning. I never care about spoilers, but of course many people do so again, I do apologize.
I believe it was Louder who said during the beta that forcefields were the most broken thing in the game. I definitely think that in many situations he's right.
Some observations to consider; The better the user, the greater the advantage Stopping an opponents ability to micro Blocking ramps; Strategical advantage (rush survival/cutting off reinforcements) Bunching up units; Tactical advantage (melee disadvantage/range advantage)
The better the user... Skill ceilings are essential to the success of a competitive game. If there were a very low skill ceiling, SC2 would get stale very quickly (some say it has- I disagree that the ceiling is too low, though). If a player cannot physically outplay an opponent, then all that's left is strategy, something that develops slowly, but is disseminated quickly. Basically everyone would be at just about the same level. It is not the fact that one player possesses higher skill than another, it is the ability to activate that skill that is a problem. If one race has built in mechanics that allow them to outplay their opponent through physical skill and the other does not, then one race is at a disadvantage. Likewise, if one race must actively activate more skill to gain an advantage or stay on par with another race, there is a problem there as well, unless the other races are able to similarly take advantage of physical skill (think Terran in SC:BW).
They stop the opponents ability to micro. I don't think this is a problem in itself, as long as it is something that can be avoided. Basically, it takes good micro to successfully use and successfully avoid forcefields. The impetus is on Protoss to gain an advantage. However, the opposing race does not gain an advantage from successfully avoiding being forcefielded. However, if sentries are seen as an investment (which they are) and a compromise between more powerful units (which they are), their failure to be utilized properly does put the Protoss at a disadvantage. the important question here is "does failure to utilize the investment of sentries put me at as much of a disadvantage as my opponent failing to properly avoid my forcefields." I think the answer to this question might very well be "no" in many circumstances.
Blocking Ramps. The ability to instantly create impassable terrain is, on the surface, really really cool. That's probably why Blizzard likes it so much. It's a really novel idea and I think it deserves recognition. That being said, forcefields being used to strategically block a ramp (as opposed to being used tactically to gain an advantage on the battlefield) greatly change the strategical make-up of SC2. It messes with some of the fundamental concepts of an RTS game (as do a few other SC2 innovations). I'll start with the obvious. Not being able to reinforce your units (or utilize a large chunk of your army) during a key fight completely changes the advantage disadvantage balance of the game. One of the fundamental choices in SC2 is whether to build units or build economy. Each of those decisions has benefits and consequences for all of the races. When you are denied the benefits of the decision to build an army at a specific point, you are forced to cope with both the inherent disadvantages (not building an economy) and the lack of immediate advantages (which can turn into a permanent lack of advantage. This can be incredibly bad, as we've seen. Players should never be punished for making good decisions (as July was when he decided to build roaches to defend MC's push- as obvious of a decision as that was). The decision to invest in military, economy, or technology is also fundamental to any rts game (as far as I know there are no games with only a single type of un-upgradeable attacking unit). The decision to rush is basically a decision to focus on military might as quickly and as aggressively as possible. It comes with advantages (I kill my opponent, I survive a rush) and disadvantages (putting off economy and tech). Forcefielding a ramp to survive a rush eliminates this inherent and necessary compromise in many situations; My opponent decides to rush, I decide to tech to gain an advantage. For a small price (the significance of which needs to be questioned), I am able to completely negate my opponents decision and immediately and completely punish him for making another good (in the sense that it should have to be reconciled appropriately by the opponent) decision. This is a bad thing. However, if forcefields are absolutely necessary for the survival of a race against certain strategies (meaning there are no other options that don't put the defender at a disadvantage), then it is perfectly fine as long as the benefit of making the proper decision is appropriately rewarded (meaning that you don't immediately win the game by defending the rush or whatever). I think in this respect forcefields, while annoying, are mostly okay (defensively). Now lets go back to the offensive aspect of forcefields being used to block an opponents reinforcements. The interesting thing here is that Protoss has another HUGE strategic advantage. The warp-in mechanic (which deserves it's own thread), fundamentally changes another basic aspect of RTS play, the rush distance, or better, the unit reinforcement period. Since time is the most valuable of all resources in any rts game (more on that some other time), eliminating the reinforcement period through warp-in should be considered a major modification to the usual mechanic of the game. The odd thing here is that Protoss has both of these advantages. Putting these two things together seems incredibly risky from a balance perspective. Of course, if these things are counter-balanced by advantages in the other race, it is fine. Zerg certainly has many advantages, but the question is does Zerg have a reasonable advantage at the right stages of the game to make it balance. An interesting thought; since Protoss clearly has the offensive advantage with warp-in, wouldn't it make more sense for the Zerg to have a defensive advantage (they do have one key one- flexibility)? From a strategic perspective it almost seems like Zerg should have the forcefield ability (or course this makes no sense from a narrative perspective).
Finally, the tactical use of forcefields; Forcefields have two tactical uses on the battlefield. First, it has the ability to artificially lower the number of enemy units in an engagement (by cutting them in half and the like). There are other abilities that do this (Vortex) and certain tactical maneuvers can accomplish it (good concaves, engaging at chokes). The other is that it can situationally remove the opponent's ability to deal damage, while still allowing them to take damage. Again, fungal growth can do the same thing (while also dealing damage) and the high ground advantage also simulates this. These are both very powerful advantages that can determine the outcome of games and of course, should be very carefully considered. The first one is not of as much interest because it is fairly straight forward and doesn't depend much of unit composition or other tactical advantages/disadvantages. A smaller army is a smaller army. It's the second situation that I think is really notable because it has the potential of greatly amplifying other advantages. One of the basic disadvantages of a melee unit is that it cannot deal damage if it cannot get in range of a target. Forcefields coupled with units of higher range essentially turn any unit into a temporary melee unit. A roach has range 4, a stalker has range 6. A forcefielded roach essentially has range 0 versus a stalker and can obviously do no damage while being itself killed. There is nothing complicated about it. What is interesting, however, is the fact that a hydralisk has only base range 5, but can be upgraded to range six to equal a stalker. Hydralisks are also higher tier units than stalker and are extremely slow moving whereas stalkers are extremely fast. While they do good dps to stalkers and stalkers do slightly limited damage to hydras, stalkers are naturally more strategically advantaged to hydralisks, a fact that I'm sure is no accident on blizzards part. This strategically advantage is normally balanced by the fact that hydralisks have a statistical advantage on stalkers: they are cheaper and they do more damage. But with forcefields and the fact that stalkers outrange hydras and roaches (pre-upgrade), stalkers can literally kill an infinite number of hydralisks. Add to that the fact that hydras are much too slow to micro against forcefields and you have the recipe for the kind of carnage that July experienced at the hands of MC. If hydras are the natural response to mass stalker, yet sentries with forcefields can completely nullify them, one must carefully consider the timings and situational options that a Zerg has to deal with such a scenario to see if it is too situationally slanted in one races favor or another.
Do I think that forcefields are broken? Yes. Do I think that that is necessarily bad? No. Forcefields add a really interesting element to the game. However, they seem to change some of the fundamental aspects of the game, and that is something that definitely needs to be considered. If forcefields are necessary to defend a rush, then they need to be available for that, but if they give too much advantage to one player without the other player having an appropriate response or a similarly powerful advantage, they need to be dealt with.
One possible solution- increase the energy requirement for using forcefields while at the same time raising the starting energy of the sentry. This would mean that a single sentry would still be enough to defend a rush while not having so much energy as to become overly useful later in the game. Only a thought.
If Gateway units were as good as stimmed marines and marauders then sure take FF away. But the fact of the matter is that without it, kite and stim would spell every TvP game.
There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
I think FFs have a very high skill cap; pretty much illustrated by the difference between huk and mc who go for a similar strategy.
On the other hand, i think its too easy for terrans to emp the whole clump (patched to -100 energy, yay) and too hard for the zerg to do anything for lack of ranged units to snipe them.
zerg needs something in that regard, i think it will be more entertaining if they do get something to use against it rather than just nerfing the sentry more (it once was a pretty powerful unit in itself)
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
I as Protoss agree that FFs are very very strong, maybe too much. They however require some skill. Problem is, that if you remove them, Protoss doesnt stand a chance against Terrans. Protoss win and die with forcefields, if you know what I mean
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
Whats the point of stacking energy??? 1 FF per sentry is kinda ridiculous, 100 gas is a lot of investment and the unit it self don't deal much damage. There are a lot of ways to counter forcefields, Morrow/idra use tunneling claws to counter this And if you know a sentry heavy 4 gate is coming you can have lings intercept these slow sentries or bait forcefields. Also you need skills to execute this and without them gateway units are pretty useless. Roach/MM play is basically soo good against gateway units and will delay your expandsion.
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
So sentrys should basicly be ramp blocker with a guardian shield?
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
So sentrys should basicly be ramp blocker with a guardian shield?
8 sentries can still make 8 ffs, which is easily enough for most ways on the maps... but it would be much harder b/c they all need to be in the right position. probably too hard on P :E
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
because clearly one way of avoiding spoilers is by surfing TL. I think you asked for it.
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
There's no way you honestly thought July was going to win. There wasn't a soul on the planet that did.
On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game.
A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents.
I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes.
Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine.
One thing that can be used to apply pressure to a sentry-heavy build is banelings. Against banelings, the protoss player needs to completely wall off with forcefields, or risk letting the banelings hit his precious sentries.
With a bunch of banelings in play, you can actually successfully bait forcefields, which is one of the reasons the ling/bling style of play seems to have so much potential in ZvP.
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
I like forcefields, they're fun to watch. I don't think they need to be changed just because someone of MC's skill level used them masterfully in one series.
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
Why were you surfing the biggest Starcraft 2 site on the net a couple hours after the GSL finals if you didn't want to get spoiled? :lol :lol
They stop the opponents ability to micro. I don't think this is a problem in itself, as long as it is something that can be avoided. Basically, it takes good micro to successfully use and successfully avoid forcefields. The impetus is on Protoss to gain an advantage. However, the opposing race does not gain an advantage from successfully avoiding being forcefielded. However, if sentries are seen as an investment (which they are) and a compromise between more powerful units (which they are), their failure to be utilized properly does put the Protoss at a disadvantage. the important question here is "does failure to utilize the investment of sentries put me at as much of a disadvantage as my opponent failing to properly avoid my forcefields." I think the answer to this question might very well be "no" in many circumstances.
Now lets go back to the offensive aspect of forcefields being used to block an opponents reinforcements. The interesting thing here is that Protoss has another HUGE strategic advantage. The warp-in mechanic (which deserves it's own thread), fundamentally changes another basic aspect of RTS play, the rush distance, or better, the unit reinforcement period. Since time is the most valuable of all resources in any rts game (more on that some other time), eliminating the reinforcement period through warp-in should be considered a major modification to the usual mechanic of the game. The odd thing here is that Protoss has both of these advantages. Putting these two things together seems incredibly risky from a balance perspective. Of course, if these things are counter-balanced by advantages in the other race, it is fine. Zerg certainly has many advantages, but the question is does Zerg have a reasonable advantage at the right stages of the game to make it balance. An interesting thought; since Protoss clearly has the offensive advantage with warp-in, wouldn't it make more sense for the Zerg to have a defensive advantage (they do have one key one- flexibility)? From a strategic perspective it almost seems like Zerg should have the forcefield ability (or course this makes no sense from a narrative perspective).
Finally, the tactical use of forcefields; Forcefields have two tactical uses on the battlefield. First, it has the ability to artificially lower the number of enemy units in an engagement (by cutting them in half and the like). There are other abilities that do this (Vortex) and certain tactical maneuvers can accomplish it (good concaves, engaging at chokes). The other is that it can situationally remove the opponent's ability to deal damage, while still allowing them to take damage. Again, fungal growth can do the same thing (while also dealing damage) and the high ground advantage also simulates this. These are both very powerful advantages that can determine the outcome of games and of course, should be very carefully considered. The first one is not of as much interest because it is fairly straight forward and doesn't depend much of unit composition or other tactical advantages/disadvantages. A smaller army is a smaller army. It's the second situation that I think is really notable because it has the potential of greatly amplifying other advantages. One of the basic disadvantages of a melee unit is that it cannot deal damage if it cannot get in range of a target. Forcefields coupled with units of higher range essentially turn any unit into a temporary melee unit. A roach has range 4, a stalker has range 6. A forcefielded roach essentially has range 0 versus a stalker and can obviously do no damage while being itself killed. There is nothing complicated about it. What is interesting, however, is the fact that a hydralisk has only base range 5, but can be upgraded to range six to equal a stalker. Hydralisks are also higher tier units than stalker and are extremely slow moving whereas stalkers are extremely fast. While they do good dps to stalkers and stalkers do slightly limited damage to hydras, stalkers are naturally more strategically advantaged to hydralisks, a fact that I'm sure is no accident on blizzards part. This strategically advantage is normally balanced by the fact that hydralisks have a statistical advantage on stalkers: they are cheaper and they do more damage. But with forcefields and the fact that stalkers outrange hydras and roaches (pre-upgrade), stalkers can literally kill an infinite number of hydralisks. Add to that the fact that hydras are much too slow to micro against forcefields and you have the recipe for the kind of carnage that July experienced at the hands of MC. If hydras are the natural response to mass stalker, yet sentries with forcefields can completely nullify them, one must carefully consider the timings and situational options that a Zerg has to deal with such a scenario to see if it is too situationally slanted in one races favor or another.
Do I think that forcefields are broken? Yes. Do I think that that is necessarily bad? No. Forcefields add a really interesting element to the game. However, they seem to change some of the fundamental aspects of the game, and that is something that definitely needs to be considered. If forcefields are necessary to defend a rush, then they need to be available for that, but if they give too much advantage to one player without the other player having an appropriate response or a similarly powerful advantage, they need to be dealt with.
One possible solution- increase the energy requirement for using forcefields while at the same time raising the starting energy of the sentry. This would mean that a single sentry would still be enough to defend a rush while not having so much energy as to become overly useful later in the game. Only a thought.
With a lot of sentrys made in the early game and good micro you can indeed stop your opponents ability to micro, but so does conc shell and FG with a far less investment.
"Usual mechanic of the game" your talking about sc2 like you know what sc2 should have looked like, gave a disc to bliz and they messed your perfect game up with adding warpgates and FF, however the game is as it is. Dont use "it should have been this and it isnt" as an argument, would make the whole thing easier to read Also with toss having the "offensive advantage" you should consider that unless you dont leave your base till the protoss attacks this advantage isnt all that good. Going with your army to your opponents base, starting to warp in a pylon, waiting until its finished and then attacking isnt as glorious as it seems.
And yes, in some theoretical timing attack with infinite FF and stalkers, retreating not being an option ofc, a protoss wins from a zerg. What are you trying to proof?
this is one of those subjects i wish the community could get a panel of expert opinion on. i think FF is totally broken, thought so in the beta, thought so now. i am also not a pro player, and i think my opinion is totally irrelevant. i might even be wrong. i am just not qualified to say whether at an expert level FF is broken because i am not an expert player.
it would be awesome to have a discussion among experts on this subject. if there already has been such a discussion, i wish i could find it.
barring that, i would love to hear viable counters to FF. i think julyzerg would probably also love to hear some viable counters to FF.
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
Whats the point of stacking energy??? 1 FF per sentry is kinda ridiculous, 100 gas is a lot of investment and the unit it self don't deal much damage. There are a lot of ways to counter forcefields, Morrow/idra use tunneling claws to counter this And if you know a sentry heavy 4 gate is coming you can have lings intercept these slow sentries or bait forcefields. Also you need skills to execute this and without them gateway units are pretty useless. Roach/MM play is basically soo good against gateway units and will delay your expandsion.
1 FF per sentry IS ridiculous. I dare anyone who says to make this change to play Protoss against heavy aggression with this change made in a custom map, it is quite ridiculous. DO you know why people get 7-8 Sentries with a 3gate expand? Because heavy roach aggression out right kills you if you don't have all those force fields, and even then it is possible to be overrun if you screw up a single force field.
Sentries aren't easy to replace either, just because you cut the army in half doesn't mean you have the DPS to compete sometimes, if you lose sentries early game (and it IS easy to lose them sometimes, or if you overstepped) then you would always be required to have 5-6 sentries making it super difficult to actually tech.
With 3gate expand, it is almost an instant loss if you lose your first 6sentries when you try to shark mode, imagine with this change how impossible it would be,
what about sentries starting with 75 energy and force fields cost 75 energy? Therfore you can only use 2 forcefields per sentry with full energy and have to wait a bit longer to cast a 3rd. Maybe that would be too big of a nerf though, cutting forcefield usage from 4 to 2 would be pretty big.
On March 19 2011 21:29 emc wrote: what about sentries starting with 75 energy and force fields cost 75 energy? Therfore you can only use 2 forcefields per sentry with full energy and have to wait a bit longer to cast a 3rd. Maybe that would be too big of a nerf though, cutting forcefield usage from 4 to 2 would be pretty big.
I think you would have to change EMP to compensate. EMP was reduced to 100 energy because early ghost pushes were too strong (assuming this from Naniwas leaked notes), imagine after, you would have energy for 1 force field with every banked force field. Force field may be too strong against Zerg but it is definitely not against Terran, it is almost a necessity to just stay alive. Imagine dealing with all those 1base all-ins from Terran with less force fields..
On March 19 2011 21:26 TheAwesomeAll wrote: With a lot of sentrys made in the early game and good micro you can indeed stop your opponents ability to micro, but so does conc shell and FG with a far less investment.
How in the world is fungal growth less of an investment than building 8 sentries early game and never having to build anymore if you play correctly? Reliably teching to infestors is a much bigger investment, it's not like Zerg gets the ability to make infestors from a reliable tech patch against protoss like protoss gets sentries from the cybernetics core. You don't have to go out of your way to get sentries and you don't have to get an energy upgrade for them to reliably use forcefield. Terrible comparison.
Baneling play would be an answer if the counter to it wasn't already figured out. You just turtle as much as you physically can and keep expanding. Sim city every base on your side of the map and don't move out until you're maxed. Zerg currently has no answer to a late game Protoss deathball with proper upgrades and saturated 3rds/4ths anyway, so forcing protoss into the late game only benefits Toss. If you really wanted to get creative with it you could get a few warp prisms and lift your sentries until the banelings are dead and then wall off their army and retreat.
It was more than godly. MC showed off how easy it is to abuse forcefields.
Everyone knew about blocking the ramp but noone ever built up so many sentries where it can certainly be done with zero risk to the initially weaker protoss army killing off a hatch. "Initially" is an important term here because while a sacrifice is made building so many sentries it only takes a short window of time for the protoss army to switch over to dedicated attacking units and just crush whatever army is thrown at them because overtime the sentries are cutting forces in half.
I think such a situation is more of an anomaly at higher level play. If July had clued in faster to the situation he would've had more of his army already at the bottom of the ramp.
But when MC wasn't abusing a ramp he simply built more sentries to just gratuitously seperate the zerg army with contemptuous ease.
In that situation I think forcefield mechanic needs to change where it acts like a combination of stasis, dweb and the current forcefield. Thus it prevents units from attacking into and out of it, it prevents units moving into the field but any unit under it can move out of it and special abilities still function against units under the forcefield.
Forcefield eesentially needs more tradeoffs in the same manner darkswarm provided tradeoffs even though zerg stat wise was better off taking advantage of dark swarm.
I think zergs need to use their lings to snipe sentries, probes and pylons, and for the zerg to do flank attacks against heavy FF usage, and research burrow early and always burrow units when they get separated by force fields. Am I clueless?
On March 19 2011 21:29 emc wrote: what about sentries starting with 75 energy and force fields cost 75 energy? Therfore you can only use 2 forcefields per sentry with full energy and have to wait a bit longer to cast a 3rd. Maybe that would be too big of a nerf though, cutting forcefield usage from 4 to 2 would be pretty big.
I think you would have to change EMP to compensate. EMP was reduced to 100 energy because early ghost pushes were too strong (assuming this from Naniwas leaked notes), imagine after, you would have energy for 1 force field with every banked force field. Force field may be too strong against Zerg but it is definitely not against Terran, it is almost a necessity to just stay alive. Imagine dealing with all those 1base all-ins from Terran with less force fields..
yeah you're right, what about bringing back burrow on hatchery tech? I think the best way to deal with heavy sentry play is with baneling mines because a lot of sentries usually means no robotics. Just a thought, but perhaps early baneling mines at hatch tech might break ZvT?
The other kind of solution is to make hydras faster off creep either default or through an upgrade. Hydras destroy gateway units but get crushed with proper forcefields.
As others have stated, maybe FF is too harsh against Z - but there just so happens to be a race which we're fucked against without them. Maybe look there first and we'll discuss fiddling with FF. Especially 2 units which start with M.
On March 19 2011 21:47 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: As others have stated, maybe FF is too harsh against Z - but there just so happens to be a race which we're fucked against without them. Maybe look there first and we'll discuss fiddling with FF. Especially 2 units which start with M.
Force fields are to strong against zerg, nerf terran.
What? if anything zerg should get some ability to stay alive against force fields.
thanks for spoiling gsl finals. on another note, protoss could be taken out of the game without ff, since t and z early pushes are not defendable without them.
The main issue that I see with force fields, as has been pointed out by others, is how one-sided the ability is compared to spells from BW. Dark Swarm, Irradiate, Storm, etc are interesting abilities because they pit the ability of the caster vs the ability of the defender. The defender has to react properly to them or they get rolled. That's why in some games these spells would seem completely unstoppable, and in some they would be a wasted investment. The defender's ability to micro out of them determined their effectiveness.
In SC2, each race has a spell that the opponent cannot react to. Fungal Growth, EMP, and FF can all be negated before they are cast (with good units spread, getting burrow, etc etc), but they can't be dealt with on-the-fly at all. That's just bad game design imo. There's no give and take, no reactionary response, it's just "I hope I scout it in time so I can prepare".
On March 19 2011 21:47 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: As others have stated, maybe FF is too harsh against Z - but there just so happens to be a race which we're fucked against without them. Maybe look there first and we'll discuss fiddling with FF. Especially 2 units which start with M.
Force fields are to strong against zerg, nerf terran.
What? if anything zerg should get some ability to stay alive against force fields.
Burrow at hatch tech for instance.
Hey look I agree it's a horrible spell against Z and I play P - I feel for Z players, I really do. However we need FF vs T, that's just how it is. If they can make positive changes for all parties that doesn't make me angry.
I think the queen should be able to cast a spell on the FF to drop it - costing energy of course. I think that might be fair.
Just look at progames and compare expanding speed beetween P and Z, you know the answer, the P simply can safeexpand as fast as the Z can, because of FF. FF is a really great feature which makes the game fun to watch, but early FF combined with warpintech is just so strong in the earlygame. Z has hard times with trying to expand faster then the P, the 1st expand is pretty safe because of FF, and while expanding as fast Z the P can pressure alot because he isnt cutting eco, and all this results from FF and warpin.
Suggestions to reduce this problem: - reduce the earlygame quantity of FF - higher techtime for FF - higher techtime for warpins
I do agree that there is a trend that any time one race wins there is immediate QQ... now i'm not saying that this thread is exactly that but on the bnet forums it is rampant.
TL is really the only place for decent discussion. With that said, FF are needed by Protoss in the current meta game... Terran stim would really break any Toss gateway army with absolute efficiency. I'm certain that most of us have seen how Idra has dealt with them with burrow and tunneling claws... as the game evolves and even with the upcoming expansions... we will, hopefully, look back and see that FF are really not OP.... well hopefully
well i bashed my heads about this skill so much time already, and i only came to one valid conclusion that makes sense (in my brain that is):
1) forcefields arent able to block ramps. so you need lets say at least 2 or 3 forcefields up to build a concave around your or the oponents ramp 2) sentrys need to research a energy upgrade in order to forcefield right after warpin (shouldnt cost much, lets say 50/50 or 100/50 as sentrys are a gasheavy investment) 3) zerg needs a way to deal with the energy units in general (such as ht/sentry). solution: fungal'd units are unable to cast spells (but that might be too powerfull of a skill with the upcomming patch)
I just really think Zerg needs some unambiguous BUFFS, to NUMBERS ie damage, hp, movement speed, -unit cost, etc etc. And not all these weird "philosophy" changes that just shuffle around the specific applications for abilities, changes no one asked for or wanted.
Forcefield seems ridiculous vs Zerg partly because Zerg already struggles with Protoss just based on unit cost inefficiency and the fact that Protoss+micro is far, far more powerful than Zerg+micro.
You need FF against Terran? Fair enough. But it's way too good vs Zergs.
What I mean is, I get really irritated when people scream that someone has really amazing Forcefields, or whatever else. Why? Because I ask this question: What does a Zerg player have that can turn amazing micro into such a crazy advantage?
Like Blink. Yeah it takes some crazy micro to pull off, and it's certainly impressive, but the better micro the stronger your army, to the point where you become nearly unkillable. How is your opponent supposed to deal with it? If you can get sufficient micro are you supposed to be unbeatable? How is that fair, or interesting?
On March 19 2011 22:07 Hollis wrote: What I mean is, I get really irritated when people scream that someone has really amazing Forcefields, or whatever else. Why? Because I ask this question: What does a Zerg player have that can turn amazing micro into such a crazy advantage?
Ling speed, spreading your mass ling group up and individually targeting different sentries, using burrow to burrow all of your trapped units, attacking from flanks.
1. What if FF duration was lowered from 15 to 10 seconds? 15 seconds seems way too long.
orand
2. Have FF become a channeled ability that drains energy (for example 15 energy per second) and the sentry can't attack while channeling
or/and
3. Make FF an aoe ability that surronds said sentry at it's current position? Sort of like a static field that makes the sentry immune to damage, but also takes the sentry out of the battle for the duration? This way they are still viable defensively as the sentry must be in position, say ramp, to turn on or cast it's FF. Offensively the sentry would be need to get in position before opponents notice and opponents would have to snipe or retreat accordingly, making it more of a micro race?
Very new to RTS and sc2 in general, would love some feedback
burrow at hatchery tech is a terrible idea. Picture ZvZ: I get 4 banelings in his mineral line. He runs his drones away, I burrow and he cannot mine again for ages! GG right there.
I think if Queens had the ability to destroy forcefields ZvP would become much more interesting. There no offensive use for this that I can think of, but Z could deny constant ramp blocks and even start sacrificing queens in order to get into good army positions. Losing queens carelessly will still punish the zerg though, because his production after will be reduced. I think it would be great, it encourages micro and doesn't seem to hard on P, while leaving TvP totally untouched.
I have always thought that forcefields have a way too big of a role for a Protoss-player's success. Unfortunately I don't think there's an easy fix to this issue, 'cause fact of the matter is: Protoss suck without FF, and buffing stalkers/zealots would make warpgate-rushes unstoppable.
I always figured FF's should just count as neutral structures with maybe 150 hp and 1 armor. I say neutral so with proper micro a player being stopped by Forcefields or ramp blocked can still use their micro to tear them down, but a basic attack move wouldn't attack them. Seems to me this would actually make the game far more interesting to watch and far more balanced to play.
But then, I'm only about to break in to Silver, so I'm probably wrong, but the concept at least feels right to me.
On March 19 2011 22:14 Immanis wrote: what about if FF is researched? Would that be an adequate solution? As will provide some solution but im not sure how that will play out vs Terran
I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote: I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
This is exactly how it was with stim with the release of SC2, marauders against Protoss during GSL1/2 and Marines after marineking started to micro them vs banelings.
As soon as there is a game where someone does something well with something there is always a thread opening up about how that spell or unit should be changed.
The funny thing is that you are right, If these games (July vs MC) never happened then this thread would never exist and people would be on with their days without being compelled to try get force field nerfed.
Just look at what people are suggesting - Change force field to be channeling, change force field to be researched, change force field so it is one per sentry, this is exactly like a battle.net thread. No this is exactly like a battle.net thread.
On March 19 2011 20:15 ProtossPenny wrote: If Gateway units were as good as stimmed marines and marauders then sure take FF away. But the fact of the matter is that without it, kite and stim would spell every TvP game.
Your answer on the second reply... just to add and PvZ how would you deal with mass roach mid game? When you play Toss for more than five minutes you realise that if you didn't have ff you'd be sat in you base until 200/200 without ever being able to take a third
Forcefields are a powerful weapon in the Toss arsenal in my opinion they are needed and i come from being a zerg player where i've lost countless time to spam forcefields on my ramp whilst they wipeout my nat then dance away but it always was my fault for being out of position.
Most people can't see where they went wrong and lets go complain about forcefields instead of playing the game and working out how not to get owned by forcefields.
If their are changes to be made they will make them intime but they wont/shouldn't be taking advice from the 99.9% of TL lurkers that believe they are in someway of the skill/level to be making threads because they got raped by Johnny Protoss in diamond
Force Fields should stay in the game but the ability to block off an Entire ramp with 1 FF I believe is a bit unfair. Maybe make it 2? or have something where you can't mindlessly spam the same area. Because as MC did he had about 12 sentries? He could have gone for so long endlessly FFing the ramp and July wouldn't have been able to do anything.
Whats the point of stacking energy??? 1 FF per sentry is kinda ridiculous, 100 gas is a lot of investment and the unit it self don't deal much damage. There are a lot of ways to counter forcefields, Morrow/idra use tunneling claws to counter this And if you know a sentry heavy 4 gate is coming you can have lings intercept these slow sentries or bait forcefields. Also you need skills to execute this and without them gateway units are pretty useless. Roach/MM play is basically soo good against gateway units and will delay your expandsion. [/QUOTE]
well spoken if gateway units can stand up to MMM or mass roaches fine take it out....but no the both rape toss witch i find odd for some reason, but still it has to be OP for that reason and FFing does take skill (and a good computer (lag))
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Thats actually an amazing Idea. Would save Zerg early game to Phoenix / Void ray mix where there pretty much have no AA when you lift up there like 2-3 queens.
On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote: I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
This is exactly how it was with stim with the release of SC2, marauders against Protoss during GSL1/2 and Marines after marineking started to micro them vs banelings.
As soon as there is a game where someone does something well with something there is always a thread opening up about how that spell or unit should be changed.
The funny thing is that you are right, If these games (July vs MC) never happened then this thread would never exist and people would be on with their days without being compelled to try get force field nerfed.
Just look at what people are suggesting - Change force field to be channeling, change force field to be researched, change force field so it is one per sentry, this is exactly like a battle.net thread. No this is exactly like a battle.net thread.
Actually, forcefields has been up for discussion more or less all the time since the beta. This is no new issue, it has always been there. Recent events just fueled the discussion.
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote: I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
This is exactly how it was with stim with the release of SC2, marauders against Protoss during GSL1/2 and Marines after marineking started to micro them vs banelings.
As soon as there is a game where someone does something well with something there is always a thread opening up about how that spell or unit should be changed.
The funny thing is that you are right, If these games (July vs MC) never happened then this thread would never exist and people would be on with their days without being compelled to try get force field nerfed.
Just look at what people are suggesting - Change force field to be channeling, change force field to be researched, change force field so it is one per sentry, this is exactly like a battle.net thread. No this is exactly like a battle.net thread.
Actually, forcefields has been up for discussion more or less all the time since the beta. This is no new issue, it has always been there. Recent events just fueled the discussion.
Look at these requested changes, most of them are so absurd.
Force field has no way been near talked about this much.
Not a single thread about trying to get force field changed, but today, after these games it is all over the place. If these games never happened this thread would have never existed
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Thats actually an amazing Idea. Would save Zerg early game to Phoenix / Void ray mix where there pretty much have no AA when you lift up there like 2-3 queens.
I am not sure if this is a good solution. This would make the early Phoenix opening against Zergs too weak in pro games.
I think a better solution might be to have burrow be a tier 1 research or after you get an evo chamber.
Well If FF were to get nerfed in some way I would like to be either making them a lot smaller, costing more energy, not being able to be dropped on units or having a cooldown period in which the sentry that used a forcefield can't use another one for a set amount of time. I also want to suggest an idea for warpgates, right now warpgates are better than gateways in every way, they warp in units everywhere and they do it faster than a gateway would, I want to see gateways making units faster than the warpgate so that warpgates are used only for adding more units to a proxy pylon or warp prism, when the protoss is done with his attack and he want to make units in his base he just turn his warpgates into gateways, I think that would add more depth into the game. Right now FF isn't too strong because people aren't good enough at using it, but in a year or two when everyone has sick good forcefields they will be way too strong.
On March 19 2011 20:15 ProtossPenny wrote: If Gateway units were as good as stimmed marines and marauders then sure take FF away. But the fact of the matter is that without it, kite and stim would spell every TvP game.
Your answer on the second reply... just to add and PvZ how would you deal with mass roach mid game? When you play Toss for more than five minutes you realise that if you didn't have ff you'd be sat in you base until 200/200 without ever being able to take a third
Forcefields are a powerful weapon in the Toss arsenal in my opinion they are needed and i come from being a zerg player where i've lost countless time to spam forcefields on my ramp whilst they wipeout my nat then dance away but it always was my fault for being out of position.
Most people can't see where they went wrong and lets go complain about forcefields instead of playing the game and working out how not to get owned by forcefields.
If their are changes to be made they will make them intime but they wont/shouldn't be taking advice from the 99.9% of TL lurkers that believe they are in someway of the skill/level to be making threads because they got raped by Johnny Protoss in diamond
yes me included...
But the problem here, and with the whole protoss arsenal, is that protoss is balanced around these possibly imbalanced units. Maybe they are, maybe they are not, but it is certainly a high possibility witch makes the P very hard to balance. You cant nerf anything in t1 since then they suck, and you cant buff them since then warpgate make them to powerful in the early game. And the t1 unis suck late game so the t3 units must be super strong.
Gateway units are in general more costly than the early units of both zerg and terran, and they also lose in a straight up battle. The only reason toss can get on par is with forcefields.
Sure, get rid of forcefields, just make sure you make stalkers cost 75/25 and remove stim/conc shells as well.
Whining that you can't get roaches with burrow before 6 gate with 12 sentries come is ridiculous. Protoss spent 1200 gas on sentries only + stalkers, and zerg cant get lair+burrow in time?
This whole drama after GSL finals is just pathetic.
On March 19 2011 22:09 mathemagician1986 wrote: burrow at hatchery tech is a terrible idea. Picture ZvZ: I get 4 banelings in his mineral line. He runs his drones away, I burrow and he cannot mine again for ages! GG right there.
I think if Queens had the ability to destroy forcefields ZvP would become much more interesting. There no offensive use for this that I can think of, but Z could deny constant ramp blocks and even start sacrificing queens in order to get into good army positions. Losing queens carelessly will still punish the zerg though, because his production after will be reduced. I think it would be great, it encourages micro and doesn't seem to hard on P, while leaving TvP totally untouched.
He could morph banes and explode them over your burrowed banes to take care of that .
I think allowing queens to break FF's would be kind of silly aswell. As a zerg FFs do make me rage sometimes, but I think they are pretty much okay. July could have tried bating some ffs out and trying not to engage/ use burrow more effectively to counter MC's play. All in all if force fields really are broken I wouldn't want blizz to make changes just based on one series of games ._. .
If Protoss completely dominates zerg for like a month maybe then they could look into it, but I prefer to see what zergs can come up with before that to counter this kinds of plays.
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote: Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series.
Nobody here is even remotely close to MC's level of understanding the game as it is now. How can you possibly know, that there is no way, that this build can be countered? You guys cannot or do not want to even try to think about that. Hell, just nerf the damn thing, so we don't have to worry about that.
On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote: Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series.
No, he's saying that Blizzard should nerf something because it is overpowered and people are only now starting to tap into its overpowered-ness.
Now granted, I don't believe FF is OP myself (though simply making them into something you can kill would probably help the game). But that's what he's saying.
I always felt that forcefields appeared way too early in the game for such a battlefield changing ability. The Arbiter's statis field in BW radically changes the enemies unit makeup during a big battle, however it doesn't appear so early, and when it finally does the user doesn't just spam it, he has to really think about where it's used. I feel that that is how the sentry's FF should be.
Of course, getting rid of it altogether would be preferable, but if we got rid of everything that I felt wasn't right in sc2 (creep, roaches, concussive shells, warp ins, etc) we'd be back to BW, so.... :D
On March 19 2011 22:14 Immanis wrote: what about if FF is researched? Would that be an adequate solution? As will provide some solution but im not sure how that will play out vs Terran
By the time the research would finish the sentries would be stocked with energy so it would make no difference to late game forcefields.
I don't think FF's should be nerfed. I do believe that in the future you will see ways around FF abusing plays. However I do feel that making the Queen massive so they can stomp down FF's would really help the Zerg when a Protoss is in his natural, giving the Zerg some what of a defenders advantage.
On March 19 2011 23:02 NicolBolas wrote:No, he's saying that Blizzard should nerf something because it is overpowered and people are only now starting to tap into its overpowered-ness.
Actually, I think he is. The first part of my post was more of a rhetorical nature, albeit not being a question.
The fact of the matter is, we do not know, if it is or isn't OP. It has already been established, that Blizzard doesn't balance the game around the top 10 or 5% of players. But somehow, people think it's a good idea to go even further and base their decision on one guy playing another.
Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
On March 19 2011 23:15 BGrael wrote: Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
A great idea. But it shouldn't require Queen collision to destroy the FF. An attack or 2 from the queen should be able to destroy. Protoss will have to dispatch the queens before abusing FF. And we might see more queen used offensively by Zerg.
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas. Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145.
It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength.
Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not.
I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.
This is a huge part of the problem of Blizzard's balancing policy, and the knee-jerk reactions to every strategy ever don't help. Nerfing the immediate problem instead of dealing with the solution.
5-rax reaper was good not because it was overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Pylons/cannons blocking ramp was good not because it was overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Bunker rushing is good not because it's overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Most people only see the strategy as OP and yell, "nerf, I can't deal with it!" without realizing that if Zerg's early game defense was buffed in some way, all of these strategies would be legitimate tactics Z could deal with without breaking the game.
Think about what you're asking: by Blizzard immediately nerfing everything, you're removing the step where players develop solutions to problems and the game and skill cap grows. Nothing may even need to be buffed--the solution could be right there. Do you honestly think that July lost, not because of the decisions he made, but because force fields are OP? Do you honestly think there is nothing that July could have easily done, like get burrow, that could have changed the tide of the game? Do you honestly think that drastic balance changes that haven't been brought up for months should be considered because of the results of one game?
With these types of community reactions to good strategies and the way Blizzard's responding to them (by seemingly nerfing everything that people complain about), it scares me to think of what the game's going to be like in a year or two. A-move into each other with no micro because spells are OP. I'd much rather play a slightly imbalanced game with a ton of strategies and tactics than a perfectly balanced game with next to none.
i'm not going to touch on the subject of whether or not forcefields are balanced because for such a pivotal spell i don't have anywhere close to the necessary skill to comment. however, i would like to say that it feels completely out of place in a game like sc2.
forcefields are the only spell in the game that will literally change the terrain, it can turn an attack into a decent sized choke into an attack into a 1 unit sized choke in less than a second. it can turn a well setup flank into a one sided attack with only half the initial unit amount.
that in and of itself is not bad, what is bad is that it requires almost no sacrifice from the protoss player and it is completely unavoidable by the other player. you can plant a forcefield anywhere you want on the map within seconds. so not only can it change and block terrain it can split armies in whatever way you can imagine. this makes attacking into a sentry heavy army a 100% commitment or guaranteed losses. a unit that can force engagements is an EXTREMELY powerful asset to have in an army, it makes you the initiator and, thus, gives you control of the game flow.
another thing about changing the terrain is that it can block ramps. initially in beta, and perhaps still true now, protoss was dependant on this for early defense against aggression. the thing about this is it's a completely dumb mechanic. it removes a huge portion of early game aggression because you can just ff a ramp or cut armies in half on the ramp. early game ultra aggressive play is dead because of the forcefield. and the idea that you can attack into someone's natural and forcefield their ramp while their reinforceing units have nothing to do but sit there while the nat dies is really dumb. some would say it's easily preventable by just not letting the sentry get in range, but there are about 101 ways to get a sentry in range of a ramp and only one way to stop it.
the other thing that i find frustrating both to watch and play against is that there is absolutely nothing you can do against forcefields except a) as terran emp and prevent them or b) as zerg burrow roach under them. in sc1 spells that hindered unit effectiveness (all spells in general actually), as opposed to just killing them, require a ton of tech or skill to use. things like ensnare were barely used and darkswarm is comparatively hard to use and infrequently used compared to forcefields. there's no interaction needed to use forcefield or fight against it. when an army attacks you, you either block it or split it in half at your whim. when you get forcefielded you either run or commit. there's no such thing as dodging / blocking a forcefield because obviously you can't it just pushes you out of the way and there's no such thing as a truly impressive forcefield because the spell is so easy to use and spammable and you can literally place it anywhere you want.
i think even with all the gripes i have with the spell the worst thing about it is that it ruins the initiation and climax of battles. i mean you watch two armies position against each other vying for map control and choosing areas of engagements carefully and when you finally see the armies advancing towards each other there's that moment of OMFG WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN and then 5 forcefields go off blocking half the other guys army and it's completely anticlimactic and stupid to watch. it's like if someone were to walk towards you with a giant ice cream sundae and at the very last moment throw it at your brand new shoes. i hate forcefields.
i don't have any well thought out solutions for this but i think any good solution would require more player interaction in both placing the forcefield and dealing with them.
i mean take for example psi storm in sc1. the first cast is important but not pivotal what is important is your second cast, that's the moment when the two players are closest to directly interacting, where is he storming next where will he dodge to? in that brief moment of player interaction we see some semblance of skill, this is almost never seen with forcefields and, honestly, is hard to find in sc2 in general.
Of course, getting rid of it altogether would be preferable
Protoss would lose every match to early Terran aggression if FF were removed. I dont mean lose most games vs Terran, i mean lose every game vs Terran.
You need to understand that cost for cost, Gateway units without FF are the worst of the 3 races. MM easily beats Gateway early, as does Ling/Roach (without Sentry) this was done on purpose so that Protoss would play slightly different and rely on a early caster/dps unit like the Sentry.
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Dont forget that July expanded and droned quite alot, without a big defense he shouldnt be able to stop a 1 base attack from any race, it is how the game works.
On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote: baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming.
In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive. They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game. Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense. Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get. /rant off.
I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed." Yikes!
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later.
You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything.
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later.
You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything.
You cannot stop a 1 base Protoss who cuts Probes with 2 half finished Spine Crawlers a few Roaches and Lings, it does not work that way.
July made plenty of mistakes, whereas MC made none in that game, he perfectly tricked July into thinking his own push was weaker than it really was.
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later.
You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything.
You cannot stop a 1 base Protoss who cuts Probes with 2 half finished Spine Crawlers a few Roaches and Lings, it does not work that way.
July made plenty of mistakes, whereas MC made none in that game, he perfectly tricked July into thinking his own push was weaker than it really was.
July already made drones because of expansion, what he gonna do cancel those eggs and waste larvae. Spines take 50 sec to build, July just wasn't prepared. He knows Mc's style but his response was a bit late
On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote: baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming.
In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive. They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game. Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense. Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get. /rant off.
I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed." Yikes!
You're acting as if: -Sentries aren't expensive, and mass sentries aren't really expensive -Sentries aren't really fragile -Investing in drops doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Investing in burrow/tunneling doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Cost-for-cost arguments are ever valid, ignoring the fact that the cost of 400/350 gas is less gas than 4 sentries.
You're just dismissing a bunch of valid options because it's, "unfair you have to work that hard," which is only hurting yourself--pro Zerg players seem to be able to cope fine. Instead you're asking Blizzard to patch and make you a solution when the solution could be right in front of you.
Why do people think it's valid to watch one set between two players and think, "Something needs to be done about this." Would it be the same if MC won with mass blink stalkers, or mass carriers, or really early zealot pressure?
I only saw the first game from the finals, so I don't know how 'broken' FF's are in the other games. But let me tell you. MC could've EASILY lost that game if july didn't drone that much or if his attack came 10seconds later due to the spines. FF's are very fragile and are only deadly in hands of near perfect micro. Hammering about balance changes is the LAST option people should reach out to when faced with a problem. The likelyhood of Blizz changing FF based on on set is near impossible. Many of the changes proposed are very silly and people are often missing the point entirely. 1 FF per sentry? Sentries Channeling FF's? You do understand that they cost a whopping 100gas right? It delays tech insanely and they barely scratch.
In general, people need to stop asking Blizzard to fix things they can't find an immediate solution to, because that's not how a good game will develop in the long run. It's insane that because of one game, over 4 threads have been made about "Force Fields being OP?" and not many people considered that July lost because of his own mistakes and not because of the ability.
Just an idea here.. But what if 2 banelings could break 1 FF? Think about what that would do for the early/mid/late game.
In the early game, toss wouldn't be able to just say "sry gai im techin, you ain't gettin in any time soon", and just go about his business with 0 fears.
In 4-6 gate pushes, banes would cause the toss to have a harder time simply ruining our ability to re-enforce, and killing our dps that our already super short range units have.
It would make the whole 5 sentry 5 zealot early expand thing alot harder on toss, as they couldn't just FF their way to turtleville anymore. They'd have to actually defend their expansion like terrans and zergs do.
and in the late game with death balls, they wouldn't be this wall of death that moves and can't be dented. Force fields would still be used to soak damage, but it wouldn't make them invulnerable to ground forces anymore.
Toss would actually have to become the micro race once again in zvp if this change went through, and not the turtle into a deathball race anymore.
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote: baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming.
In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive. They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game. Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense. Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get. /rant off.
I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed." Yikes!
You're acting as if: -Sentries aren't expensive, and mass sentries aren't really expensive -Sentries aren't really fragile -Investing in drops doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Investing in burrow/tunneling doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Cost-for-cost arguments are ever valid, ignoring the fact that the cost of 400/350 gas is less gas than 4 sentries.
You're just dismissing a bunch of valid options because it's, "unfair you have to work that hard," which is only hurting yourself--pro Zerg players seem to be able to cope fine. Instead you're asking Blizzard to patch and make you a solution when the solution could be right in front of you.
Why do people think it's valid to watch one set between two players and think, "Something needs to be done about this." Would it be the same if MC won with mass blink stalkers, or mass carriers, or really early zealot pressure?
Baneling drops are good vs. sentries but that's not a solution. Protoss has a lot of different all-ins and timings with sentries - you can't have baneling bombs ready in time usually. And it doesn't have much to do with the discussion itself, because people are talking how you can't micro against FFs - and banelings bombs just kills sentries, they do not help dealing with forcefields.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
Forget July vs. MC, everyone decent in masters knows how to make good forcefields and you cannot do anything about that. You don't need to be MC to drop FF on a ramp or choke.
* FFs should cost 75 energy: - Each sentry would be able to cast 2 FFs at most, instead of 4. - Sentries wouldn't be warped with the ability to cast FFs, which result in an endless offensive ramp blocking which, in my view, is stupid. - Protoss would die to a lot of early aggression, this would have to be addressed. - My sugestion is that, somehow, sentries warped inside your base would be able to spawn with 75 energy. Or maybe that sentries from gateways could have 75 starting energy, while warped ones only 50. This would still be a defensive nerf overall, but wouldn't be the end of sentries.
Thoughts? Please do not bash me. I'm only expressing an opinion.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
On March 19 2011 23:59 KrSuma wrote: Ive been reading the OP's words and ive been thinking..
1) how about giving sentrys a limited set of FFs? like 1 or 2 for each? maybe its nerfing them too hard...?
2) how about making FF an upgrade? like erm conc shell?
3) how about giving FF a cooldown? longer? I think this is better.
combining 2 and 3 is a good theory imo... how about you guys?
I don't think those 3 are good fixes to FF, especially no. 3, since that would mean EMP would not work on them.
Personally, as a terran player, FFs are fine as it is, although i'd rather that Blizz get rid of FF entirely and in exchange heavily buff the zealot into a more threatening meatshield unit, like maybe give it +50 shields/hp more, add 20 damage, change speed to 2.5, and replace charge with cheaper leg enhancements that give permanent 3 speed or more, and maybe make them so that they have like 20% resistance to spells and abilities such as conc shells, fungal or storms.
On March 20 2011 00:02 Ingruz wrote: Well make the Queen massive could help but it will make phoenix harrass almost impossible... I still prefer to make the FF a channeling spell...
On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote: I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
What you say makes no sense. The recent games gave light to a possible imbalance, that only very skilled players can pull off. Just because not everyone can do it doesnt mean the imbalance isnt there and shouldt be changed. And the only way you would actually realize the imbalance is there is when someone executes it. Are you saying imbalances are good jsut because only skilled players can pull them off?
You're saying it's odd that people only complain about an imbalance after it was discovered? that seems pretty logical to me, im not sure why you'd complain about something which you didnt know exists.
Im not saying the forcefield is imbalanced, im merely wondering about your view on balance discussions.
Now to my thoughts on forcefield:
It takes good micro to pull off forcefield like that, to get yourself that advantage. But for a mechanic liek that to work you have to give the opponent to equally or better micro to counter it
example: vultures darting in and laying spidermines all around dragoons is hard, but a good spread can really pay off. likewise if the dragoons can run and focus individual mines to negate the advantage of the vultures. a micro vs micro battle, whoever is better wins.
forcefields dont have this. untill you get burrow movement, after the forcefields are cast you just lose a portion of your army, there is nothing you can do about it. 5 roaches fighting vs 10 stalkers, and then 5 roaches fighting vs 10 stalkers is almost the same as only encountering 5 roaches in the first place, what with the shield regen and advantage of greater numbers.
This is why i beliebe forcefields are broken, for the majority of players it's balanced simply because they cant pull off good forcefields, but at higher levels of play it can be imbalanced
Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Thats actually an amazing Idea. Would save Zerg early game to Phoenix / Void ray mix where there pretty much have no AA when you lift up there like 2-3 queens.
I'm not sure Zerg needs more help dealing with pheonix void ray (though I certainly do lose to it frequently).
However the idea of Queens breaking down FFs is amazing, especially considering how slow they are off creep. It adds a "defenders" advantage for Zerg on Creep without breaking the use of a sentry for defense or in the open map. It would also open up some micro opportunities for zerg with queens transfusing one another while they break down a FF wall for the army behind them which would make these engagements actually tense. It also makes early creep spread even more important.
Did you really make another QQ thread? I honestly can't believe thisd is a topic of discussion ATM. Firstly, you stated a pro said in beta how force fields were the most broken thing in the game. Well, you neglected to mention how much more dps the sentries did in beta, and how much bigger the forcefield was. Forcefield is a needed component, much like concuss and stim, and ling speed etc. Please stop mkaing this qq thread with a different name.
On March 20 2011 00:11 Decessus wrote: * FFs should cost 75 energy: - Each sentry would be able to cast 2 FFs at most, instead of 4. - Sentries wouldn't be warped with the ability to cast FFs, which result in an endless offensive ramp blocking which, in my view, is stupid. - Protoss would die to a lot of early aggression, this would have to be addressed. - My sugestion is that, somehow, sentries warped inside your base would be able to spawn with 75 energy. Or maybe that sentries from gateways could have 75 starting energy, while warped ones only 50. This would still be a defensive nerf overall, but wouldn't be the end of sentries.
Thoughts? Please do not bash me. I'm only expressing an opinion.
- How can toss handle early aggression if you nerf sentries? Make gateway units stronger? Which inherently increases the power of the 4gate. - Roughly 0% of the games at high level are normal gateways being used. If you suggest warping in 3 warpgates and 1 normal gate, it totally screws up the toss mechanics. For what? To nerf a skill that is quite difficult to pull of? I don't know if you play toss or not, but good FF's aren't as easy to pull off as you think. - The endless FF at enemy ramp can only happen if you have 4+ sentries. Those things die insanely fast in direct encounters due to the range and shoddy HP. Warping in new sentries mean less firepower overall and heft gas sink. - Higher energy cost is just not good at all. Sentries already cost a shitload of gas while doing bad dps to a lot of units.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
What if sentries did 4 damage instead of 6? Zoning and splitting is the major problem with forcefields, but it's necessary due to the vulnerability of Protoss in early game. Reducing the damage done by sentries would at least reduce the effectiveness of delayed 4gate and 6gate pushes that have mass amounts of sentries with little stalker/zealot support.
I like the idea of massive queens, its something I've never thought of before but could really help zerg deal with these ridiculous 8~ sentry midgame pushes. That said with decent creepspread (as in ALL THE WAY TO THEIR BASE) I can't help but feel that zerg should be meeting these big pushes as close to their base as possible and doing little pick offs / fake attacks on the ball to burn energy on sentries before it gets too late. That said I'd like to see how changing queens to massive changed these midgame pushes, whether it'd be too much or too little to even matter.
Either something like this or making forcefield an ability (ala 250mm cannon) and giving sentries their 2 damage back seems to make a lot of sense if you ask me, though I'm by no means a "pro".
Oh and my "whining" has very little to do with MC himself, its more to do with playing / watching PvZ as an overall matchup, I don't know how anyone can say forcefields haven't been incredibly strong for months and months when they have basically led to PvZ being the most depressing matchup, I mean I even enjoy watching mirrors over a forcefield ridden PvZ.
On March 20 2011 00:19 maybenexttime wrote: Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
What do you think, guys?
The problem is if they start with only 50 energy, 3rax terrans will win 95+% vs protoss. Then if sentries were let to store up energy, offensive ramp blocks would be like 5x more effective than before. The best idea I've seen is OP's idea (increase energy requirement for FF and increase sentry starting energy)
I think the real solution to the problem is giving forcefield a cooldown. That way they retain their offensive usefulness, but at the same time their placement actually matters and you can no longer just cast FFs semi randomly and win.
Although, I'd also beg to look at this the other way around. MC and ONLY MC has been able to successfully abuse sentries in this way. Huk's build is not nearly as powerful or well executed, as seen in code A. No one else has been able to pull this kind of push off this effectively, which also speaks volumes of how powerful a player MC is. Otherwise everyone would do this, which doesn't happen.
Also, I'd like to repeat something that Tyler said in SotG. When things like these happened in BW, the community, in particular this community, set out to find strategies that would counter the new kid on the block. When this happens on the SC2 community, they set out on a quest for blizz to rebalance the game, or more like a whining quest. I truly believe this strategies are beatable and very skill-dependant. I don't know. I remember BW and I can't help but imagine the gigantic shit threads it's spells would produce. I mean, plague???, Reavers??, Siege tanks??, Cracklings?? Effin DARK SWARM ANYONE??. Those skills, and particularly the latter one, were grossly overpowered, Dark swarm is actually a crazy skill terran can hardly even counter if well used. Hell, defilers even insta-regen energy for endless swarms.
I'd like threads to discuss STRATEGY around these world-shattering events. MC totally outplayed July, outside of any forcefield balance discussions.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy.
On March 20 2011 00:19 maybenexttime wrote: Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
What do you think, guys?
The problem is if they start with only 50 energy, 3rax terrans will win 95+% vs protoss. Then if sentries were let to store up energy, offensive ramp blocks would be like 5x more effective than before. The best idea I've seen is OP's idea (increase energy requirement for FF and increase sentry starting energy)
Like I said, if it turns out P can't deal with earlygame pressure, Sentry's starting energy would get increased.
What do you mean by storing energy? Never said anything like that. ;o
People complaing for the almost abusive use of ff from MC must really need to see the other pros out there. Why? To realise the fact than MC's is seriusly a total beast. No other protoss play nearly like him, i bet that July can rape any other P on earth, but MC make it look so easy that seems unfair. I agree that the matches MC plays look boring, even as a toss player. But i really think is not a balance problem, as i said before, I've never seen other protoss won with such superiority "a la MC", he´s not even close to the other P's, he is the first "Flash" of the Sc2 generation.
And for the record, P's live and die with ff. Good ff's may win games, but bad ff placement, means you're dead. Still, i think in some time pros will raise their level reaching MC's actual level and beyond, and we will have to see if better level from other races pros can deal with this ff abuse, or it will have to be rebalanced.
Let's also note the LACK of high ground advantage, specifically no miss-rate %. For zergs that like to 3 RR into mass speed ling, bringing in an overlord gives them vision of high ground and that can spell GG to your buildings trying to block. Without forcefields, weak gateway units would die even more quickly. It's not necessarily the FF that's at fault, it's the weak gateway units that need it.
If a protoss builds 7-10 sentries in the early game that's a giant investment, it delays tech, and the sentries are not all that great by themselves they're a support unit. The problem as I see it is that zerg is very limited in being able to punish protoss for doing this. Terran can do early pokes and try to get the protoss to waste forcefields or they can fast tech to ghost but what is zerg's response short of doing some kind of ling all-inish play? I don't really know.
Aquanda's mass ling build with lots of little ling pokes would probably be the best bet but if the protoss micros well and protects the sentries that won't work. A burrowed roach rush seems like a good idea because detection will be delayed but it's very common for the protoss to drop a forge for the quick +1 and then make a cannon or two which negates that. Burrowed roaches are still probably needed though to circumvent this. If the protoss techs to observer that's less gateway units that they'll have.
Another issue here is the variety of things that protoss can do to zerg from their fe with lots of sentries position. Are they going to go two stargate, are they going to go colossus or make a bunch of immortals, are they going to do what mc mainly did today which is go mass gateway, they can tech to blink, dt, or hts too. Zerg really has to be on the ball scouting and preparing pretty exacting counters. It's just a tough position to be in and I hope that zerg is able to do more to solve it soon.
I wouldn't really be opposed to forcefields costing 75 mana with sentries starting at 75 mana (forcefields are needed in the early game, particularly against terran ramp busting aggression with mm). The ability to walk into the zerg base and cast like 7 forcefields in a row on the ramp as well as forcefielding the army like we saw in g1 of mc july was a bit ridiculous.
Buffing hydras would help a lot too (when have we heard that before lol). With range 7 it's a lot harder to forcefield them to the point that they won't do anything, range 4 roaches isn't nearly as hard. Increase their speed please lol.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy.
He needed to do a double scout on the expansion. Why talk about zerg all-inning? Though MC cancelled as the thing was nearing completion, that was more MC winning out in the mind games than the entire match being utterly impossible.
It's so funny all this comes up now suddenly when oGsMC becomes the GSL 5 Champion! Before it hasn't really been all that much about this but it often comes in periods.
It's a essential need for the protoss army to be able to use forcefields.
it came allready up before... u hear zergs everywhere complain about the state of zvp... something needs to be done, lets hope the infestor buff is move in the right direction
Guys, I am a 3200 SEA , 3500 NA random player. I do not want to be bias to any race but as a player who've played both Zerg and Protoss, I wish to clarify some issues with fellow TL'ers.
First, Forcefield IS indeed too strong a spell. But does that mean it is imbalanced? Maybe. The key in its strength is versatility. Defensively, forcefields ARE required by the protoss to tech up to a comfortable position against Terrans.Forcefields are so strong because of its ability to dissect an entire army.
Many trolls QQ about gateway units being weak, but in fact, it is not the case. In realistic scenarios, DPS per unit area is much more important and stalkers being the tanks they are deal the maximum DPS per unit area over an extended battle due to most of them surviving. Many people often often misconceive that the deathball is strong because of the colossus, but in fact, a stalker ball is one of the strongest armies in SC2. 6 range heavy hp benefits most realistic scenarios. Couple that with sentries splitting effective army size and decreasing DPS per unit area of other races through force field placement.
I have played Protoss against zergs countless times and it is INDEED hard to perfect forcefield placement. BUT is perfect placement really needed? Most times, with a stalker ball, and 6 gate sentry push, I dictate where my battles take place. I set the rules of engagement and positioning of enemy. It doesn't matter whether the zerg has a good arc or a bigger army, all i do is section the front most portion and destroy the enemy part by part.
I really like the Protoss race as it is unique, but guys, Protoss players especially, please admit that forcefield is too versatile of a spell. It prevents repair, it dissects any army which does not have its counters, it prevents reinforcements, prevents scouting, harass and allows the game flow to be controlled by the Protoss. I play Terran and find that Protoss does need defense against early marine marauder pressure, but don't you think forcefield should be more punishing to its user?
IMO, Forcefield should be changed to a spell which can only be placed on empty hexes. It disallows army splitting and rewards planned play. It would also not allow a player like JulyZerg, who saw the push coming from afar to be helpless in reinforcement. July could then use Zergling micro on the ramp to prevent forcefield placement. It becomes a more fair micro battle for both players. One player can then try to deny forcefield placement and the other would have to seek opportunities. Starcraft should be a game which rewards planning and not instant decisions. Warp in is already instant defence and reinforcement. comeon guys, lets not be defensive of our races and admit a tweak to forcefield would result in a better metagame in the future.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote: This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy.
He needed to do a double scout on the expansion. Why talk about zerg all-inning? Though MC cancelled as the thing was nearing completion, that was more MC winning out in the mind games than the entire match being utterly impossible.
Agree here.
July had sufficent enough defense (even with godly Forcefields against him) to hold against MCs attack.....had it actually been the attack July was expecting.
Cancelling Nexus gave MC enough ressources to just push his push (queue in Xzibit) to overwhelm July.
There is no doubt in my mind that July could have easily defended any push as long as he knew what was coming, but MC one-upped him by simply tricking him.
It is similar to when Idra lost on Lost Temple to...some Protoss? Where Idra scouts a Robo bay in the center of the guys base while half across the map, the guy made Void rays and won.
Mind games, trickery, magic etc is a part of BW and this game. It can work against you (if your opponent scouts it) but it can also pay off, in this series it paid off.
On March 19 2011 23:15 BGrael wrote: Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
Perhaps if it gets transfused the FF will dissapear then terran has a chance witch medivacs with some good micro to get rid of it as well.
This is the thing about forcefields. It makes or breaks your army. If you have bad/none forcefields you lose early and mid game. Gateway units are so weak once people start getting upgrades thats why forcefields are necessary. They are a little strong at times that we can see but nerfing FF's could make gateway units weaker n it becomes a big yellow snowball
On March 20 2011 00:21 Arkless wrote: Did you really make another QQ thread? I honestly can't believe thisd is a topic of discussion ATM. Firstly, you stated a pro said in beta how force fields were the most broken thing in the game. Well, you neglected to mention how much more dps the sentries did in beta, and how much bigger the forcefield was. Forcefield is a needed component, much like concuss and stim, and ling speed etc. Please stop mkaing this qq thread with a different name.
Yes sentries are necessary against Terran. But it seems that PERFECT forcefield play negates literally everything a zerg player can do to counter it. MC is amazing, which is exactly why this topic is created. If perfectly casted, forcefields can seemingly negate anything a zerg player can do. If this is the case, as Protoss players approach MC levels of skill, Zerg will be unable to win. It is a potential imbalance exposed by his tremendous skill.
Also, as you mentioned they have tweaked the sentries numerous times, which should indicate you that the ability is strong enough to require significant tweaking to get right. True the sentry certainly is not as good as the beta sentry and it has taken, but does that mean it's properly balanced now? Perhaps it just took this long for toss player to reach a level of skill where the forcefield's ability to abuse zerg mechanics is really becoming apparent. This should be up for debate.
If anything, a change needs to be made for the sake of SC2 as a spectator sport. It was very boring to watch even if it was technically excellent. It isn't fun watching a player literally helpless despite doing a lot of things right, you need some sort opportunity for July to micro his way to a victory to keep you on the edge of your seat. Once his main was ff'd off in the first game though it was gg. A confrontation that ends right when it begins is pretty boring IMO.
All in all though, MC deserved to win. I think we all just wish it was a little more entertaining.
Also, I'd like to repeat something that Tyler said in SotG. When things like these happened in BW, the community, in particular this community, set out to find strategies that would counter the new kid on the block. When this happens on the SC2 community, they set out on a quest for blizz to rebalance the game, or more like a whining quest. I truly believe this strategies are beatable and very skill-dependant. I don't know. I remember BW and I can't help but imagine the gigantic shit threads it's spells would produce. I mean, plague???, Reavers??, Siege tanks??, Cracklings?? Effin DARK SWARM ANYONE??. Those skills, and particularly the latter one, were grossly overpowered, Dark swarm is actually a crazy skill terran can hardly even counter if well used. Hell, defilers even insta-regen energy for endless swarms.
I'd like threads to discuss STRATEGY around these world-shattering events. MC totally outplayed July, outside of any forcefield balance discussions.
You forget that in BW (not normal SC1), each race had the tools to manage all those abilities, and it was possible to formulate strats to beat them due to this wide array of tools each race had at it's disposal.
In SC2, the Zerg is lacking in tools. The removal of certain units and spells, and shifting of tech, and abundance of needed upgrades to gain effectiveness, and a lack of hard counters, and nerfs to certain units, have left them hurting on a serious level in SC2.
Now, this could just be like back with SC1, the tools to get the jobs done wern't there until BW, and we'll have to wait until HoTS to see them added in.. but that's besides the point.
The nerf crusades happen because Zerg is under developed. Even day9 has said it himself on the SOTG podcast show that you're talking about. Infact, he's expressed his frustrations with playing Zerg and their design a number of times now since SC1's release, as have many many other pro's.
People call for change, and not strategy, because the strats just aren't there to counter the issues without the race getting more utility/balance added to it first.
It's not that I don't understand the solution; it's that you haven't successfully established the problem.
Yes, FFs are strong; and yes, in certain situations, when microed absolutely perfectly (as MC did, and as other Protosses often fail to do) they become dominating...but this is a situation where I'm pretty darn confident that players will find a way around it. It's barely imbalanced to start with, and it is counterable.
The community is starting to rely way, way too much on Blizzard's balance team, to the point where it's getting to be a massive psychological crutch. Every single time any unit, ability, or race is used successfully in a way that appears dominating, we cry imba...whereas in BW, if an ability or a unit is used in an utterly dominating fashion, everyone shouts about how amazing it is and how good the player is. It's an utterly wrong-headed approach to take to balance, in my opinion.
Blizzard is not going to fix every part of the game for us; Blizzard is not going to make the game "fair." And it shouldn't try.
If there IS a problem, then it's up to US, the players, to solve it. And by solve it, I don't mean posting theorycrafted crap about how to alter the FF ability to make it "fair" when we're not Blizzard and have no way of implementing our untested ideas. Expending that same energy as players talking about the ability and how to counter it and deal with it is actually helpful...which is why almost no one is actually doing it.
And I find it amusing that directly after the finals we have two threads discussing how FF is imba and how to fix it.
Wow i bet that every post created on the subject of forcefields, or almost every, is created by people who have not even played at a level near that of MC or Masters or even diamond for that matter. I also do not understand why people are so stupid as to only see forcefield as an issue, and completely ignore the reason that it has been implemented. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BIO BALL STIM AND KITE GATEWAY UNITS???????????????????? The cost efficiency of Bio balls against gateway units is RIDICULOUS. How about you try playing some games without making ANY sentries, then tell me that forcefields are "broken and imbalanced". You can feel free to post the videos here or make a new thread with them. Oh but sorry i won't be accepting any play below high masters level, as there are too many obvious mistakes that can be made by your opponent which would skew the game into your favor.
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
You actually just balanced ZvP. I'm being 100% serious, fantastic idea man.
The best way to beat FF's is to deplete energy, and the best way to do that is 3-prong attacks, or FF baits, which force over FF's (see wut I did thar o___O), or less-than-perfect FF's.
Easier said than done, but I think it's valid. (Coming from a Z myself)
OP, so you are saying that stim and concussive shells don't prevent the other race from microing? I mean, when you have a shit load of slow zlots and stalkers, can you really MICRO against stim and cshell? ur argument countered by the other side of the coin.
Give the forcefield 300 hp. It loses 20 hp per second, so after 15 seconds it dies. That way if you get forcefielded up your ramp you can attack it reducing its duration. Same if you get FF'ed out of positions so several units are rendered useless you can micro them to attack FF's until they can pass/retreat.
all 3 races have almost the same win ratio therefore they are balanced therefore nerfing any race significantly will disrupt the balance imo it was a mistake to remove khaydarin amulet for example
all 3 races have almost the same win ratio therefore they are balanced therefore nerfing any race significantly will disrupt the balance imo it was a mistake to remove khaydarin amulet for example
I am a terran player
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not....That's a common argument and it doesn't work because it just means that the matchmaking system is working correctly (goal of the matchmaking system is to have everyone hover around 50% win rate). It's possible that a 2k diamond zerg is at the same skill level that a 3k masters protoss is and racial imbalance prevents that from advancing up. I doubt it's that extreme but you get the idea.
On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote: I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
What you say makes no sense. The recent games gave light to a possible imbalance, that only very skilled players can pull off. Just because not everyone can do it doesnt mean the imbalance isnt there and shouldt be changed. And the only way you would actually realize the imbalance is there is when someone executes it. Are you saying imbalances are good jsut because only skilled players can pull them off?
You're saying it's odd that people only complain about an imbalance after it was discovered? that seems pretty logical to me, im not sure why you'd complain about something which you didnt know exists.
Im not saying the forcefield is imbalanced, im merely wondering about your view on balance discussions. d
No, he was originally saying that prior to the MC vs. July game, there were no discussions about Force Field balance anywhere. As soon as these games ended, people are talking about FF being broken as if it's always been very broken.
The game didn't change since two days ago and 12 hours ago. Two days ago, hardly anybody thought forcefields were imbalanced. After the set a few hours ago, a ton of people think forcefields need to be nerfed. The only thing that happened was that MC beat July 4-1 in the Grand Finals of GSL5.
If you seriously think that any strategy should be nerfed after viewing one set between two top level players, you don't have a place in talking about balance. You're assuming that July did everything humanly possible, yet the sole reason MC won was because of forcefields and not July's mistakes. You're assuming that there's nothing in the game currently that can deal with the power of Protoss's forcefields. And you're assuming that based off the results of one set.
That's inane.
Ideally, the process of balance concerning strategies should go: A strategy is shown to be pretty good-->Masses of people start using and experimenting with it more-->People start experimenting with how to deal with the strategy-->Balance is achieved and a new layer of gameplay is added.
You want to go: A strategy is shown to be pretty good-->IMBA! NERF!-->Strategy gets nerfed and no layers of gameplay or tactics were developed.
Good end-game balance isn't achieved by nerfing every strategy that looks pretty good--keep this up, and in a few years the only strategy will be a-moving into each other.
all 3 races have almost the same win ratio therefore they are balanced therefore nerfing any race significantly will disrupt the balance imo it was a mistake to remove khaydarin amulet for example
I am a terran player
Why bring up khaydarin amulet in a forcefield thread? I'm wondering what ZvP winrate would be if you singled out this 6 warpgate push with 11 sentries from a 4k+ master protoss, but I'm doubting it would look balanced. Just because all leagues have almost the same win ratio together doesn't mean that at the tip top levels forcefields can't be imbalanced.
Actually it is the opposite, because when watching the games the forcefields are what made everything feel so helpless as Zerg. Especially the game on metal where he just forcefields the ramp for infinity and takes out the expansion that Zerg has to have to even be viable at that point in the game. The forcefielded ramp negates any type of micro July could do to take out units. Then even after losing some units on the low ground with July on only 1 base only producing units he just walks up the ramp and it is gg.
My friend that was new to the game actually commented about how horrible it was to watch forcefields dictate the game without me even explaining what they were to him. I personally think from a spectator point of view that FF (especially at ramps) makes the game feel like an uphill battle especially with the larva mechanics Zerg deals with.
At the time, MC is the leading person using 11 sentries in every push to abuse FF so much. Other people are bound to start trying this out more after seeing these finals, so hopefully Zerg can influence some metagame to help combat it. I'm think the only real way to deal with this is burrow movement and burrow as soon as lair comes up while pumping only roaches when you see 6 gate incoming.
On March 20 2011 00:41 Captain Peabody wrote: It's not that I don't understand the solution; it's that you haven't successfully established the problem.
Yes, FFs are strong; and yes, in certain situations, when microed absolutely perfectly (as MC did, and as other Protosses often fail to do) they become dominating...but this is a situation where I'm pretty darn confident that players will find a way around it. It's barely imbalanced to start with, and it is counterable.
The community is starting to rely way, way too much on Blizzard's balance team, to the point where it's getting to be a massive psychological crutch. Every single time any unit, ability, or race is used successfully in a way that appears dominating, we cry imba...whereas in BW, if an ability or a unit is used in an utterly dominating fashion, everyone shouts about how amazing it is and how good the player is. It's an utterly wrong-headed approach to take to balance, in my opinion.
Blizzard is not going to fix every part of the game for us; Blizzard is not going to make the game "fair." And it shouldn't try.
If there IS a problem, then it's up to US, the players, to solve it. And by solve it, I don't mean posting theorycrafted crap about how to alter the FF ability to make it "fair" when we're not Blizzard and have no way of implementing our untested ideas. Expending that same energy as players talking about the ability and how to counter it and deal with it is actually helpful...which is why almost no one is actually doing it.
And I find it amusing that directly after the finals we have two threads discussing how FF is imba and how to fix it.
The community is just worried because MC stands as the pinnacle of protoss play. The general skill level of the community has and will be ever increasing. Saying that not everyone can use FF like MC is just naive because eventually more players will learn to do it after countless practice. It bothers them because FF is giving too much control to the protoss player. The protoss player can dictate whether your reinforcements are able to fight, whether you are able to attack him, split your army. The flow of the game is now up to the protoss to win or lose it.
It has become such that an almost perfect player like MC will never botch and never lose. Thats the concern. As players get better, it will just get more evident. I am a random player and do not want to be as bias as to say forcefield has to be removed but it definitely has to be tweaked. It should not be able to be offensively splitting armies. Restrict its usage to being able to only place on empty hexes should solve the versatility issue.
all 3 races have almost the same win ratio therefore they are balanced therefore nerfing any race significantly will disrupt the balance imo it was a mistake to remove khaydarin amulet for example
I am a terran player
Even though i hate balance-discussions like this but I still have to defend it here. The B.net 2.0 matchmaker-systems goal is that players should have roughly 50% winrate on ladder so they get matched with people who for instance are "worse" than they are if the system thinks you need more wins, therefore you cant really go by ladder to get good data on imbalance. (Unless it´s map-imbalances we´re talking about.)
once again, SC community rushes to a snap judgment after one series. people constantly whine about force field not requiring skill, being OP, blah blah blah. MC outplayed July. hard. yes, his force fields were ridiculous, but there was plenty July could have done, like prepping for a ling backstab to punish sentries immobility. sentries are an investment. you are spending a ton of gas, banking on your micro being better than theirs. when you're as good as MC, you have no problem making that assumption. but at the same time, one misclick, and MC could lose those games. something that fickle doesn't sound OP to me
Random player, low masters here (not that it really matters) and IMO, queens as massive would fix the problem They're so slow off creep that they're almost useless for early aggression so FF would still be useful for defending AND still useful in the attack if utilized correctly but the zerg would actually have a chance to respond to FF rather than just being "oh crap, perfect forcefields? GG"
I love FF and love seeing it used effectively and agree that it is needed against early MM pressure from terran but terran units at least can stim and micro around a bit whereas zerg units just get trapped completely and isolated. This change would also make those 4-gate and 6-gate timings more difficult without completely eliminating them.
Oh and all you people saying that we're just whining about FF can pipe down. I like talking about possible game balance changes and hypothesizing over fixes. I don't expect the changes I suggest to be made but I enjoy thinking about what would happen if they were. Don't come to the thread if you don't want to read about it.
On March 20 2011 00:41 Captain Peabody wrote: It's not that I don't understand the solution; it's that you haven't successfully established the problem.
Yes, FFs are strong; and yes, in certain situations, when microed absolutely perfectly (as MC did, and as other Protosses often fail to do) they become dominating...but this is a situation where I'm pretty darn confident that players will find a way around it. It's barely imbalanced to start with, and it is counterable.
The community is starting to rely way, way too much on Blizzard's balance team, to the point where it's getting to be a massive psychological crutch. Every single time any unit, ability, or race is used successfully in a way that appears dominating, we cry imba...whereas in BW, if an ability or a unit is used in an utterly dominating fashion, everyone shouts about how amazing it is and how good the player is. It's an utterly wrong-headed approach to take to balance, in my opinion.
Blizzard is not going to fix every part of the game for us; Blizzard is not going to make the game "fair." And it shouldn't try.
If there IS a problem, then it's up to US, the players, to solve it. And by solve it, I don't mean posting theorycrafted crap about how to alter the FF ability to make it "fair" when we're not Blizzard and have no way of implementing our untested ideas. Expending that same energy as players talking about the ability and how to counter it and deal with it is actually helpful...which is why almost no one is actually doing it.
And I find it amusing that directly after the finals we have two threads discussing how FF is imba and how to fix it.
The community is just worried because MC stands as the pinnacle of protoss play. The general skill level of the community has and will be ever increasing. Saying that not everyone can use FF like MC is just naive because eventually more players will learn to do it after countless practice. It bothers them because FF is giving too much control to the protoss player. The protoss player can dictate whether your reinforcements are able to fight, whether you are able to attack him, split your army. The flow of the game is now up to the protoss to win or lose it.
It has become such that an almost perfect player like MC will never botch and never lose. Thats the concern. As players get better, it will just get more evident. I am a random player and do not want to be as bias as to say forcefield has to be removed but it definitely has to be tweaked. It should not be able to be offensively splitting armies. Restrict its usage to being able to only place on empty hexes should solve the versatility issue.
Is JulyZerg the pinnacle of Zerg play though? Was the set a perfect example of the best possible Protoss vs. the best possible Zerg?
CaptainPeabody is completely right. People are using Blizzard's ability to patch things as a crutch and it's having major problems. Not only is nerfing things before any strategies have a chance to be fleshed out bad, but most people refuse to try new things to actually combat the problem. It's ridiculous that people are actually saying, "It's unfair we have to get to lair tech and burrow just to deal with forcefields," as if that's the only solution or that's even a ridiculous thing to do.
It's the same way with the, "Ways to use High Templar after Patch 1.3," thread. Hardly anyone gave suggestions--people just complained that HTs are useless now, let's all go Colossi, no way to defend against Terran drops, EMP is OP, and a bunch of other whiny and honestly useless things.
When new strategies are shown to be good by high level players, the next step is supposed to be where people figure out ways to deal with the strategies, adding more layers to the game. Not cry that it could be imbalanced and pre-emptively nerf it, reducing possible strategies. Yet, it's hard to even experiment with tactics to deal with good strategies if so many people complain, refuse to experiment, and rely on Blizzard for a "solution now" that only hurts the game in the long run.
On March 20 2011 02:12 BoxedLunch wrote: once again, SC community rushes to a snap judgment after one series. people constantly whine about force field not requiring skill, being OP, blah blah blah. MC outplayed July. hard. yes, his force fields were ridiculous, but there was plenty July could have done, like prepping for a ling backstab to punish sentries immobility. sentries are an investment. you are spending a ton of gas, banking on your micro being better than theirs. when you're as good as MC, you have no problem making that assumption. but at the same time, one misclick, and MC could lose those games. something that fickle doesn't sound OP to me
Try to view it from July's perspective. He knows MC is doing something tricky. But he has NO IDEA what because overlord scout denied by stalker and moves too slow anyway. He keeps ling probing to check on MC's units and expansion. He notices MC spending more on sentries which is what a defensive protoss player does anyway. He could gain no scouting information whereas his base is as open as a loose vag*na for MC to scout. Clear information disadvantage for him.
Second, July saw MC's push from the closest xel'naga tower cross the map. He lays down spine crawlers and begins producing units. When MC's units reach, spine is half done (lol?) and his first wave of units are done. Had he used lings to counter attack. MC could zealot warp into his 1 base choke and the game ends there. The thing is people don't see the lack of options a zerg player has and as a random player this disturbs me.
There are alot of issues involved. People say zerg is a reactive race. But how reactive can u be when u can't get a spine up in time when u see units slow walking cross map. Also, u have no idea what the opponent is doing due to lack of scouting options. U HAVE to assume a macro game and drone as much as possible because if MC does let the expansion get up, your f***ked. I hate whiners as well, but when backed with rationale and logic, I find it hard to disagree with
I find the timing of these threads to be a bit odd. How is it that a series being predicted to be won by MC at a 75% clip is so shocking that it deserves ff imbalance threads when we all turn out to be right? The outcome of the gsl final has more to do with apm not being as much of a factor in star 2 and zerg being in it's current state then it has to do with ff.
(although I do like the queen massive buff as long as it can still kill a voidray 1v1)
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
Very interesting idea and i do like it however, MC had 13 sentries at one point. That's still 13 FF at one time. Perhaps when a sentry dies his FF should disappear immediately...still not a great fix tho.
On March 20 2011 00:41 Captain Peabody wrote: It's not that I don't understand the solution; it's that you haven't successfully established the problem.
Yes, FFs are strong; and yes, in certain situations, when microed absolutely perfectly (as MC did, and as other Protosses often fail to do) they become dominating...but this is a situation where I'm pretty darn confident that players will find a way around it. It's barely imbalanced to start with, and it is counterable.
The community is starting to rely way, way too much on Blizzard's balance team, to the point where it's getting to be a massive psychological crutch. Every single time any unit, ability, or race is used successfully in a way that appears dominating, we cry imba...whereas in BW, if an ability or a unit is used in an utterly dominating fashion, everyone shouts about how amazing it is and how good the player is. It's an utterly wrong-headed approach to take to balance, in my opinion.
Blizzard is not going to fix every part of the game for us; Blizzard is not going to make the game "fair." And it shouldn't try.
If there IS a problem, then it's up to US, the players, to solve it. And by solve it, I don't mean posting theorycrafted crap about how to alter the FF ability to make it "fair" when we're not Blizzard and have no way of implementing our untested ideas. Expending that same energy as players talking about the ability and how to counter it and deal with it is actually helpful...which is why almost no one is actually doing it.
And I find it amusing that directly after the finals we have two threads discussing how FF is imba and how to fix it.
The community is just worried because MC stands as the pinnacle of protoss play. The general skill level of the community has and will be ever increasing. Saying that not everyone can use FF like MC is just naive because eventually more players will learn to do it after countless practice. It bothers them because FF is giving too much control to the protoss player. The protoss player can dictate whether your reinforcements are able to fight, whether you are able to attack him, split your army. The flow of the game is now up to the protoss to win or lose it.
It has become such that an almost perfect player like MC will never botch and never lose. Thats the concern. As players get better, it will just get more evident. I am a random player and do not want to be as bias as to say forcefield has to be removed but it definitely has to be tweaked. It should not be able to be offensively splitting armies. Restrict its usage to being able to only place on empty hexes should solve the versatility issue.
Is JulyZerg the pinnacle of Zerg play though? Was the set a perfect example of the best possible Protoss vs. the best possible Zerg?
CaptainPeabody is completely right. People are using Blizzard's ability to patch things as a crutch and it's having major problems. Not only is nerfing things before any strategies have a chance to be fleshed out bad, but most people refuse to try new things to actually combat the problem. It's ridiculous that people are actually saying, "It's unfair we have to get to lair tech and burrow just to deal with forcefields," as if that's the only solution or that's even a ridiculous thing to do.
It's the same way with the, "Ways to use High Templar after Patch 1.3," thread. Hardly anyone gave suggestions--people just complained that HTs are useless now, let's all go Colossi, no way to defend against Terran drops, EMP is OP, and a bunch of other whiny and honestly useless things.
When new strategies are shown to be good by high level players, the next step is supposed to be where people figure out ways to deal with the strategies, adding more layers to the game. Not cry that it could be imbalanced and pre-emptively nerf it, reducing possible strategies. Yet, it's hard to even experiment with tactics to deal with good strategies if so many people complain, refuse to experiment, and rely on Blizzard for a "solution now" that only hurts the game in the long run.
I dare say July is a pretty damn good Zerg player. If you read my post above, you would have seen that July is pretty much out of options. Pretty much the only way he could win was a blind counter with mass roaches and zerglings hoping for a bust but ends up overpowering MC's push. We have to look at it objectively, Blizzard has dug themselves into a hole by designing such COOL but yet game breaking concepts. I do not want to argue BW vs SC2 but the skill level of MC and July is not that far apart that ROLFSTOMP should occur. In BW, even a lower S class player would have had a closer game against bisu for instance.
I don't think anyone would make this kind of thread if the finals today had not shown a VERY obvious problem.
@the "counterwhiners" : yes, against T FF isnt a problem. It actually makes the match up quite entertaining.
However, seeing July not do any particular mistake yet get absolutely ripped off just makes you realise how broken it is vs Z. Z is outranged whatever unit composition they have pretty much (well, on a realistic level), and their units are also weaker individually. You split the army / cut reinforcement on an army that's already weaker and relies on reinforcements to win battles, you've pretty much won the game. Simple as that. Those games (and many before) were proof.
However, i'm absolutely LOVING Sirion's idea. Make Queens massive. Could probably fix ZvP entirely, really. You're brilliant man.
I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote: Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series.
Nobody here is even remotely close to MC's level of understanding the game as it is now. How can you possibly know, that there is no way, that this build can be countered? You guys cannot or do not want to even try to think about that. Hell, just nerf the damn thing, so we don't have to worry about that.
No, I am saying that I expect they will nerf it eventually as more and more protoss players through practice and experimentation will become masters of FF. Most of them already use it good enough to turn hard battles into simple ones, but MC just roflstomped his way with them. There is no reason why other talented protoss cannot do the same.
On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote: I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
+1, being able to warp in bad units everywhere still leaves you with bad units. Complaining about forcefields doesn't achieve much.
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
You actually just balanced ZvP. I'm being 100% serious, fantastic idea man.
Force fields really are a problem and while yes protoss does need force fields early on to defend vs builds like 7 roach rush and mass marines or possibly proxy gates. The problem is when you get 5 or so sentry all with 100+ energy you can instantly control the flow of the battle at any location on the map. The main reason I stopped using marauders vs protoss even though marines get slaughtered by colo is that if the protoss puts up 3-4 good force fields when you attack you lose 1/3 to 1/2 your army without even being able to attack back. I think zergs have the same problem but in different ways. There is no easy fix for this imo because force fields existence is currently too much of a factor in protoss's game plan. What I expect to happen is for blizz to come up with a legit nerf for it and then 2 weeks before the patch take the changes back but leave the buff they gave in change of taking it out. More as usual I guess
Everyone keeps focusing on the FF's when the only reason July kept losing was because he was going for the wrong things, in the wrong order. he kept going for hydras, either making them or making a blind hydra den and delaying Burrow or not getting it at all. It's really simple to stop all the attacks, you get roaches and burrow and that completely nullifies any amount of force field godliness whatever. Zerg simply does not have enough gas to go hydra den + overseer + burrow + roach speed all when lair finishes, you have to choose wisely and he kept choosing a blind hydra den when there were no signs of any air, instead of going burrow blindly, which is what you absolutely need to do unless you scout indications that he wont be doing a warpgate timing
The problem is, if you take away forcefields, the toss army is dead in many situations. For example, forcefields are essential in holding off early Terran pushes. You take away forcefields, were as good as dead.
On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote: I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
What is this I don't even... ultras? Are you serious?
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas. Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145.
It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength.
Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not.
I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.
Well that is all true, but roaches have less range them sentry+stalker. And FF lasts more then long enough for these 145 hp to mean nothing. Actually the last game of finals sentries were only used for the first attacks that let MC get so far ahead that he could only win by using stalkers and zealots after that even with hydra on the other side.
On March 20 2011 02:31 ket- wrote: However, seeing July not do any particular mistake yet get absolutely ripped off just makes you realise how broken it is vs Z. Z is outranged whatever unit composition they have pretty much (well, on a realistic level), and their units are also weaker individually. You split the army / cut reinforcement on an army that's already weaker and relies on reinforcements to win battles, you've pretty much won the game. Simple as that. Those games (and many before) were proof.
Well July took a race currently believed to be the weakest at the pro level all the way to the finals in large part by never powering drones. He played it in a way that most people aren't playing it, he took some heat for "all-ins" but it was working better than current thought. Perhaps he thought MC was too good for this type of strategy (probly true) but I always cringe when I see the strategy that got you there being ditched (MKP s4).
On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote: I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
What are you a Silver player? Yeah i'll rush ultra's next time i get 4 gated
[QUOTE]On March 20 2011 02:36 -Archangel- wrote: [QUOTE]On March 19 2011 23:24 iChau wrote: [QUOTE]On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote: [QUOTE]On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.[/QUOTE] Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.[/QUOTE]
Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas. Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145.
It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength.
Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not.
I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.[/QUOTE]
I am wondering why all players do not realise that SC is not a 1+1 game. Just because a sentry < a roach does not mean a group of sentry < a group of roach. Have u ever considered DPS per unit area? If 8 sentries were to dissect 8 roaches such that only 2 roaches can hit at a time. Now tell me who wins then? Sentries are so strong because they dilute an army's worth. U have 200 food army, I have 100 food. I divide u such that u fight me 40 food a time. Guess who wins?
On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote: I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
Uhm. What? I personally don't think force fields are overpowered (just because that's the way casters are supposed to work in general...) but suggesting ultralisks or something to "counter" forcefields is just ridiculous. Seriously, you do understand that sentries come way way way way way way before an ultralisk would ever pop out.
Well, are forcefields really "broken"? I mean, sure, it IS an amazing spell/ability, but lets take into consideration a couple things.
1. Blizzard has been working to remove imbalances in the game, and to make sure certain tactics aren't "broken". If forcefields were truly imbalanced, I think Blizzard would have nerfed/removed them by now.
2. Actual gameplay. If you watch high level games, you can see that players are finding ways to play against amazing FF's. If FF were a broken ability, Protoss would be the "broken" race, but seeing that they're not (despite the talk about the protoss "deathball" and whatnot), it's a very bold statement to say that FF is too good.
3. There are ways to stop sentries. They're not units without an effective counter; in fact, there are a lot of effective ways to stop them. Ignoring unit counters for a moment, you can always bait the sentries into setting up forcefields preemptively while you dodge them completely. If you're zerg, you can always get burrow (and burrow movement for roaches) to momentarily hide your army, and escape if you have a roach composition. Sure, burrowed roaches might get hit as they run away, but once you're no longer under FF's, you can unburrow and run freely. If the FF's blocked you in, theyre certainly going to block the protoss army in as well. If you're terran, you can use EMP which just destroys the effectiveness of sentries. There are just so many convenient ways to stop sentries.
I'm not saying FF isn't an amazing spell. I just dont think their effectiveness should be something to argue about because you can stop sentries rather well.
"It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
How about making forcefields a channeling spell. That should create some interesting situations where one player is trying to reach critical sentries and one is trying to defend them. The sentry would probably need to be buffed in other ways to make up for the nerf.
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
There's no way you honestly thought July was going to win. There wasn't a soul on the planet that did.
On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game.
A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents.
I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes.
Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine.
Burrow movement? i mean you completely go under the forcefeild and july never even used burrow more than once last night even though mc never made a robo, and he also attacked with his units in a clump which is a mistake you cannot make against MC....
Would you say reavers, vultures, tanks, ... were balanced in bw? At some point you have to accept that things are often balanced because all races have "op" things that compensate for eachother. If you nerf every powerful unit/spell this would just be a more visually pleasing version of rock/paper scissors.
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
There's no way you honestly thought July was going to win. There wasn't a soul on the planet that did.
On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game.
A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents.
I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes.
Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine.
Burrow movement? i mean you completely go under the forcefeild and july never even used burrow more than once last night even though mc never made a robo, and he also attacked with his units in a clump which is a mistake you cannot make against MC....
6 gate timings usually hit before you can get burrow movement (you'll usually only have speed and burrow). MC's timings were later, but he often opened with something like DT's for example, that through off July's timings
I really like the idea of making Queens a massive unit, so they can negate forcefields on ramps etc. I think this would be the easiest way to change the dynamic of ZvP without affecting forcefield in any other matchup at all. As a side bonus, zerg players would probably bring 2-3 queens with them in battles to stop massive forcefielding, which would lead to alot of neat games / playstyles.
On March 19 2011 21:54 Willes wrote: Just look at progames and compare expanding speed beetween P and Z, you know the answer, the P simply can safeexpand as fast as the Z can, because of FF. FF is a really great feature which makes the game fun to watch, but early FF combined with warpintech is just so strong in the earlygame. Z has hard times with trying to expand faster then the P, the 1st expand is pretty safe because of FF, and while expanding as fast Z the P can pressure alot because he isnt cutting eco, and all this results from FF and warpin.
Suggestions to reduce this problem: - reduce the earlygame quantity of FF - higher techtime for FF - higher techtime for warpins
mfg
if that was the case i would 15 nexus every game.... NO july could have hatch firsted 90% of those games but he chose not too...... How can P nexus before a hatchery unless we go 15 nexus which i should tell you is probably the riskiest build on the planet..... I mean you saw how july knew exactly how to handle it with his hydra drop..... As for higher tech time for Forcefeild, i do not want to get all inned MORE by terran and this would certainly encourage it.
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment..
Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming.
On March 19 2011 21:27 jeremysaint wrote: this is one of those subjects i wish the community could get a panel of expert opinion on. i think FF is totally broken, thought so in the beta, thought so now. i am also not a pro player, and i think my opinion is totally irrelevant. i might even be wrong. i am just not qualified to say whether at an expert level FF is broken because i am not an expert player.
it would be awesome to have a discussion among experts on this subject. if there already has been such a discussion, i wish i could find it.
barring that, i would love to hear viable counters to FF. i think julyzerg would probably also love to hear some viable counters to FF.
ultra/baneling drop/burrow/broodlord/muta-based armies/not attacking head on and coming from multiple angles/forcing small battles all over the map/harassment style play
On March 20 2011 02:54 Disarm22 wrote: Any one who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that burrow movement would not have been enough
what about crevasse? July lost most of his army just seconds before burrow finished then reinforced with 10 burrow roaches which was not going to be enough no matter what. If he didn't engage until burrow finished it woulda been different.
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment..
Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming.
LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades
Maybe FF's design is not the problem here? It's the ability to easily cast unstoppable perfect surrounds. IMHO everything the smart casting AI doing now can be done with a bit of training, especially when we are talking about Pro training here.
Another possible solution is to make the forcefields be placed on empty ground only where there is no units or buildings, i.e., like the auto turrets from Ravens. In this way, forcefields are still useful as defensive tools, at the same time it's abusive offensive usage is under proper control.
I posted this in the other thread because I did not see this one...
I'm not combing through all the pages in this thread to check, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned...if so +1! What I think would be a good solution is to simply add HP to FF. A large amount would be good, maybe 500? It would require a lot of testing to find a balanced number. If people are finding this is too much of a nerf another possibility would be to have FF start with HP, say 500 again, then have an upgrade available that makes them invulnerable like they are now.
On March 20 2011 03:03 mmdmmd wrote: Maybe FF's design is not the problem here? It's the ability to easily cast unstoppable perfect surrounds. IMHO everything the smart casting AI doing now can be done with a bit of training, especially when we are talking about Pro training here.
That is especially true. Forcefields are here to stay and they are a good concept. Thing is, its too perfect. We have to set limitations. No forcefields on units and buildings. That levels the playing fields between the races as the opponent can now counter forcefields with micro if its not done pre-emptively
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment..
Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming.
LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades
Lol I wont give you a break.
And it's called creative scouting. Keep a hidden drone in their base early, send normal drone to scout that player is expecting. Usually works for me. =/ . Use your hidden drone when necessary.
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment..
Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming.
LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades
Lol I wont give you a break.
And it's called creative scouting. Keep a hidden drone in their base early, send normal drone to scout that player is expecting. Usually works for me. =/ . Use your hidden drone when necessary.
That won't work vs. MC. Or anyone decent for that matter...
I have three accounts, originally it was intended to be one acct for each of the races, and I got diamond with all three, and then I switched to random on my main account and am still in diamond. I think sentries are fine as is, here's why:
1. Allows protoss to tech. Without sentries you can't stop a good 3 rax with just zealots and stalkers. Without sentries you can't stop a speedling + baneling bust. Without sentries you can't stop a 4 gate rush.
2. Sentries require energy to cast forcefield. This means a good emp can turn 12 sentries into pretty flowers. Fungal gets rid of sentries easy. Colossus can break forcefields, and templars can feedback the sentries.
3. Roaches can burrow and move out of the forcefields.
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment..
Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming.
LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades
Lol I wont give you a break.
And it's called creative scouting. Keep a hidden drone in their base early, send normal drone to scout that player is expecting. Usually works for me. =/ . Use your hidden drone when necessary.
Maybe hiding a scout works at the silver and gold level...
I think there need to be more tools to deal with force fields, or these tools need to be more accessible. Slow units like queens, immortals, and siege tanks should be able to break them so players have some counterplay options instead of feeling helpless.
I also sort of feel like burrow movement as an upgrade shouldnt exist--once you research burrow why is the second upgrade necessary? 0 upgrades for force field... 2 upgrdes to partially counter?
On March 20 2011 02:52 eXigent Wrote I really like the idea of making Queens a massive unit, so they can negate forcefields on ramps etc. I think this would be the easiest way to change the dynamic of ZvP without affecting forcefield in any other matchup at all. As a side bonus, zerg players would probably bring 2-3 queens with them in battles to stop massive forcefielding, which would lead to alot of neat games / playstyles.
I totally would love to see that change happen.
Yeah I was thinking of the same thing. Zerg's only way to break ffs atm is the ultralisk, which comes out very late. The queen would be a nice early game help to the roach/hydra balls, additionally the queen is really slow off creep so it cannot be used offensively easily. It also very encourages better creep spread, so the queen can be supported. Also the queen is still easily sniped by stalkers or whatever.
Overall this change would allow the zerg player to use queen micro to counter force field ffs.
Also do remember though, massive queens would not be able to be lifted by phoenixs, which seems decent. It'll allow zerg to have more reliabe AA before really needing hydras or spores.
also yeah smart casting AI makes every thing easier and MBS too... warp gates would actually need some APM/hotkeys without MBS...it'll take some good hand speed.
On March 20 2011 02:48 Yamulo wrote: [ Burrow movement? i mean you completely go under the forcefeild and july never even used burrow more than once last night even though mc never made a robo, and he also attacked with his units in a clump which is a mistake you cannot make against MC....
On the game on crevasse for example, he never even had the chance to get burrow movement
If you actually watched the game speed and burrow just got finished (and don't tell me he should of gotten tunneling claws before speed because roaches are dog shit diarrhea without it) right when MC got there.
This is a stupid argument. you should of said he should of upgraded hydra range and went hydra ling
On March 20 2011 03:11 ZasZ. wrote: The only change that should be made to FF is that it shouldn't be able to block ramps.
No reason the Zerg should have to do everything in their power to keep Sentries away from the bottom of the ramp...or lose the game. It's silly.
Do that, and you break other matchups too, as well as zvp.
And Rememebr... Sentries are expensive spell casters. but they are extremely weak and immobile combat units. There are tradeoffs here for the toss who decides to use sentry you know.
On March 20 2011 03:03 mmdmmd wrote: Maybe FF's design is not the problem here? It's the ability to easily cast unstoppable perfect surrounds. IMHO everything the smart casting AI doing now can be done with a bit of training, especially when we are talking about Pro training here.
That is especially true. Forcefields are here to stay and they are a good concept. Thing is, its too perfect. We have to set limitations. No forcefields on units and buildings. That levels the playing fields between the races as the opponent can now counter forcefields with micro if its not done pre-emptively
Exactly. That's what I said: FF should be place on empty ground only. Hi 5.
Anyway stupid to argue the point here. Let the game evolve/ play itself out. If Protoss win rates become incredibly tipped, then blizzard will do something about it.
just give zergs some way to defend against them, FFs are not so broken vs terran to be quite frank, maybe make FFs last shorter on creep so at least zerg can have some defenders advantage? just throwing ideas there
Honestly FF needs some fixing. Wether it be increasing the cost so you can't constantly FF ramps to defend or offensively to stop a zerg from ever saving his expo. I dunno Im not a amazing player.
MC basically won with FF. Sure they were good and MC was the better player but they gave more than just a little advantage everygame. Also note the TSL game 1 of Tyler vs Strelok. FF won the game
On March 20 2011 03:22 andrewwiggin wrote: Anyway stupid to argue the point here. Let the game evolve/ play itself out. If Protoss win rates become incredibly tipped, then blizzard will do something about it.
But I have faith in sc2 players.
The win ratio is relative to both the skill level of the players and the design of the game. For example, if I use a race X and get a %50 win ratio vs another race Y, does that means X v Y is balanced? Not necessarily. Because I might be ''less skilled'', and the race X is just too good so that I can get a %50 ratio vs ''more skilled'' race Y players. And it's hard to determine whether I'm less or more skilled than my opponents at the first place. The only way to tell whether that X v Y is balanced or not is via the highest level matches: because we can assume that at the highest level the top players have roughly equal skills. If top players from race X constantly beat top players from race Y, then there is something wrong in the game design.
mc is just gonna smash through everyone in the tsl, i dont think anyone knows how to abuse ff and timings better than mc. From a spectators point of view it looks really dumb.
It isn't forcefields that are the problem. The problem is that protoss micro scales better than zerg micro. One can't easily micro melee units (lings), low range units (roaches) or slow units (hydras).
Zerg needs a tier 1 unit equivalent to the sentry -- just like ghost vs high templar battle.
Without FF's protoss would never win a game. They are a very expensive, necessary support unit. Try holding off terran rushes without them, or baneling busts. Someone could start a thread saying that banelings are op vs marines, but they are a necessary unit. Infact, banelings kill zealot sentry openeings anyway. I see IdrA do it all the time. Maybe people should play more than they make "op" threads.
Com'on guys, the game is not figured out yet Contribute ideas more than you, well, do what is going on here <3
doesn't roach burrow movement destroy heavy sentry play like this? sure, you might have a few less roaches because you spent gas on it, but if they have that many sentries their actual fighting power is somewhat low in the first place.
With regards to all the ranp force-fielding suggestions, I am of the opinion that the maps are the problem. I think ramps like Scrap Station has and the destructable debris that Crevasse features would make all the difference neede for this matchup
Sit down and compare just how weak toss gateway units are compared to MM or RH. There is no comparison in BW Protoss used to be strong and expensive, now they are just expensive. Sentries level the playing field. OP in oGsMC's hands no doubt who builds like 12 with perfect placement but I think meta game will rise to confront MC. Ghosts for one and early mutas to destroy sentries behoind enemy lines. Just watch.
I really really like the use of forcefields in SMALL numbers, but i really think it gets rediculous when a toss can throw down 20+ forcefields in a single engagement. That puts the outcome of the battle PURELY in the tosses hands, and the Zerg just has to hope that the toss misplaces a few, but then again when you can throw down 20+ it doesn't matter if you misplace a few.
I really feel like it needs some sort of change, maybe have them be targetable with a small amount of health or make it so a single sentry can only throw down 1 every 10 seconds or so. I"m not sure, but i really feel like forcefield can solely change the tide of a battle and there isn't much a Zerg can do about it.
Well first of all Terran can, load up in your medivacs and fly away. Seriously though whats wrong with Protoss having a little map control? you can't retreat from marauders or speedlings either. Just do what Protoss do and hide at the top of your ramp until you have a stronger army than he does, then you take map control for yourself.
Problem #2 No reinforcements from the main during a push
Easy answer here seems to be defend better, make units earlier, throw up more static defense I don't know. This is a problem with the 4-gate or the 6-gate and has very little to do with forcefield. Maybe these pushes are too strong, I don't know and I don't care.
Problem #3 It cuts your army in half
Well yeah thats kind of the point. If this is overpowered then by all means increase the cost of the sentry or something, Blizzard can do whatever they normally do to determine whether they want something nerfed. The worst thing you can do though is simply take away the sentry's ability to do this.
Problem #4 It reduces ability to micro whereas Brood War spells encouraged good control.
Ah, here we have a winner. I can cite precedent from Brood War though. Stasis Field would freeze half your tanks and they would then get surrounded and die. That's exactly the same principle as the forcefield operates under. I love forcefields though because they don't suddenly take your army away. They require both good placement as well as coddling a fairly fragile unit (sentries are sooooo much easier to kill than arbiters).
I feel like I'd be a lot happier with FFs if you couldn't stack them. Like, if they were overlapping, you couldn't place the second one. It would reward much higher precision.
If ff cost more energy or had the slightest delay to allow a few more units past, rather then blocking them all, I think this could be a nice little fix to this.
It would still be possible to be grossly good with it, just will take some more focus placing ffs.
On March 20 2011 03:11 ZasZ. wrote: The only change that should be made to FF is that it shouldn't be able to block ramps.
No reason the Zerg should have to do everything in their power to keep Sentries away from the bottom of the ramp...or lose the game. It's silly.
So you can 7-roach rush us every game and auto-win? Oh, I see
Protoss need to be able to FF their ramp to stop early harrass against roaches and marines/marauders (especially with concussive shells)
I think if there were ever to be a nerf to forcefield, then making forcefields last for a shorter period of time would be the only justifiable nerf.
-Making them smaller would really make them useless (they wouldn't block anything, and they'd especially provide no defense on ramps against early pushes where they're necessary). -Making them breakable (a.k.a. if they had hp) would make them useless in the mid-to-late game (think of how fast a 150-200 food army would kill off a few forcefields, regardless of the hp). -Making them crushable by more units wouldn't work because of how frequently we already see so many units in SC2. Unless perhaps you made it like the archon, infestor, and siege tank?
That being said, I don't think forcefield needs to be nerfed at the moment anyway.
Some of you guys act like there is no possible way to beat this play... once people figure out a way to punish the sentry heavy play this too shall pass. Maybe a ton of spine crawlers and getting out mutalisks? Idk, MC is good and all but july just didn't really see it coming it seemed like.
IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs.
On March 20 2011 04:31 WniO wrote: ffs are one of the coolest additions to sc2. it would be nice if they didnt last as long as they do though.
I really do think it's an awesome spell (as ). I also think GS and hallucination are underused - pretty much I <3 sentries (if I ever switch to toss it's b/c of them).
That being said.. I can't stand the way can just spam click and split up an opponents force into little pieces (and then watch while the AI makes any retreating units run into the wall and act confused).
needs FF to defend early pressure, and I feel blocking ramps is fine - IF there was a change to FF, reduce the range from 9 to 6.
I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
That pretty much means that you can't cast forcefields against Zerg during a battle (good luck throwing them down *between* zerglings) and how are you going to split any Zerg or Terran armies? That would be removing the offensive capabilities of FF, so I disagree with that suggestion. If a Protoss player overlaps FFs, then he's just wasting energy, so it's actually worse for him
What if FFs, by one sentry, could only be put down if in a psionic matrix? Like, if a sentry is within a pylon, it can place as many ffs as he wants. But if not, the sentry can only be placed one at a time. Twilight council upgrade to get rid of this limitation.
On March 20 2011 04:51 GiygaS wrote: What if FFs, by one sentry, could only be put down if in a psionic matrix? Like, if a sentry is within a pylon, it can place as many ffs as he wants. But if not, the sentry can only be placed one at a time. Twilight council upgrade to get rid of this limitation.
What if the Sentry had no FFs, but instead had 200 hp and made 20 dmg + 15 vs armored? (same firing rate as now)
I have always thought in the current SOTG for MOST levels of play that FF is balanced because so many protoss seemed incredibly bad (by bad i mean not awesome) with their forcefields. It always appeared to be an ability that once people started to figure it out it would be ridiculously awesome and MC has shown it. I think this is one of those balance items that will be difficult to address as protoss at all competitive levels (High Diamond+) NEED FF to compete, however in the hands of a pro its ridiculously strong. The only success I've had at the high diamond/low master level is to continually poke in with zerglings in the early game to attempt to get them to waste a few FF but that cant really be done against 12 sentries.
I personally like the 1FF per sentry fix but think maybe there should be an upgrade allowing for more? Though this wouldnt really help in a ramp block situation as you only need 1 FF out.
To summarize, yes FF is crazy strong at the highest levels but is a required ability so unlike all the other nerfs, it cannot be simply removed. I don't have an answer as to what should be done.
So I'd like to point out a real inconsistency in a lot of these posts. For months, on and off people have been complaining about a lack of "Overpowered' spells in Starcraft. The examples people brought up in BW were often things like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, stasis field etc.
This could be the start of exactly what you've been asking for. A spell that seems absolutely ridiculous, and will take time to develop counters too. With that in mind, the thing you should all be asking for isn't for a nerf to FF, but rather some sort of micro based answer for zerg. Is that adding a spell to overseers to disable casters? Is that giving burrow movement to more units like zerglings and hydras? I don't know, but what I do know is the last thing SC2 needs is more nerfs.
On March 20 2011 04:37 IVN wrote: IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs.
Okay dude, seriously. Start a game as zerg, and count how long it takes to get a bunch of roaches + burrow + roach speed + tunneling claws.
Do it. Now compare that number with how fast a 4gate/6 gate comes.
Okay great. That is why July just never seemed to bother. It is impossible.
On March 20 2011 04:37 IVN wrote: IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs.
Okay dude, seriously. Start a game as zerg, and count how long it takes to get a bunch of roaches + burrow + roach speed + tunneling claws.
Do it. Now compare that number with how fast a 4gate/6 gate comes.
Okay great. That is why July just never seemed to bother. It is impossible.
You are wrong. It is possible. In fact, in the one game, he had burrow, despite making a spire and a hydra den. Now think what he could have done, if he had invested that gas properly.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
This way zerg, with fast creep spread, can prevent his ramp from getting blocked and protoss can still defend against early aggresion from stimmed mm´s or a 7rr. It could also potentially mean a huge battle in the late game for toss to prevent creep spread and for zerg to keep applying it.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
On March 20 2011 04:51 GiygaS wrote: What if FFs, by one sentry, could only be put down if in a psionic matrix? Like, if a sentry is within a pylon, it can place as many ffs as he wants. But if not, the sentry can only be placed one at a time. Twilight council upgrade to get rid of this limitation.
It would still be nearly impossible to forcefield your ramp (the most important defensive function for FF), since pylons usually shouldn't be used as the wall itself... too easy to get sniped and then your walling gateways/ tech would get unpowered.
On March 19 2011 21:07 shadowboxer wrote: On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game.
A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents.
I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes.
Good post. This sums it up the core of the issue very well imo
Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine.
I've been thinking a slight boost to hydra speed / armor (to start) is would to wonders for the game, for a lot of reasons - this FF issue being one of the primary ones.
On March 20 2011 04:37 IVN wrote: IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs.
Okay dude, seriously. Start a game as zerg, and count how long it takes to get a bunch of roaches + burrow + roach speed + tunneling claws.
Do it. Now compare that number with how fast a 4gate/6 gate comes.
Okay great. That is why July just never seemed to bother. It is impossible.
You are wrong. It is possible. In fact, in the one game, he had burrow, despite making a spire and a hydra den. Now think what he could have done, if he had invested that gas properly.
The crevase game was the only blatantly quick 6 gate. MC moved out when Roach speed was less than half done. That's close to two minutes before roaches will be able to move while burrowed. No, July didn't have an opportunity to get when the 6 gate came. If he had started researching it, his roaches would all be dead when it finishes.
It is very difficult reading these discussions when so many people are so blatantly focused on their own games and not with true balance of the game. It is very easy to spot both (P) players who are clearly just worried that they will need to do something different. Then there are (Z) players who are coming up with solutions that just make everything easier for them.
As a Zerg player, I dislike the current state of FFs. I completely understand their importance in in the protoss Gateway army. Having an ability that is so spammable, so easy to use, and just so insanely powerful seems wrong.
It will be difficult to shift FFs to a more acceptable role in the game, and protoss would need to be adjusted properly to give them proper options for early/mid/late and offense/defense. I think maps also really accentuate the problem with it, maps like Backwater Gulch. It is incredibly easy, and takes no skill/risk for a Protoss to block off the ramp and keep it blocked for an extended period of time.
Also, the game didn't change in the last 48 hours, nor in the last month or so (forget the date of the last balance patch) and that didn't change FF either. I think that even though the game hasn't changed, this was still a focal point of so much attention of the community, and we were able to see a single ability have what felt like too much of an impact on the most important series in the last couple months.
I would love for there to be a solution that was fair for all matchups, but that changes (not necessarily a direct nerf) FF.
Options I have read in this thread: -FF Channeled -Increase Energy -Limit to 1 on the field per Sentry -Change base cost and and starting energy to 75 -Cooldown -Reduce duration -Require the hexagons to clear
It seems like people that are suggesting changes aren't taking into consideration what the intended function of FF is, and that leads them to making suggestions that are not helpful. I think before we go making decisions for Blizzard on how to balance, we need to agree on exactly what role the FF is supposed to accomplish for (P), and distinguish what roles it is doing too well for them, then balance around that.
It should be changed so that sentries throw down destructible rocks instead of Forcefields, that way blizzard gets to feed their destructible rock fetish, and zerg gets to break down more rocks.
Protoss are at the moment the most nerfed and the weakest race early game, and despite that, the best player in the world is a protoss. And THAT ist what soooo man zerg and terran brains cant comprehend nor tolerate. That's why all the nerf demands are coming.
Yesterday absolutely no one was saying anything about FFs, but now that a protoss player, the best sc2 player alive, has demonstrated his mad skillz, and torn apart the "old BW-fag" favorite July (which Im a fan of, btw), the QQing of epic proportions has ensued.
And the best part: MC did it all without resorting to allegedly super imba, insanely OP and utterly broken units like colossi and HTs. For that alone, I will always be a MC fan. The huge zerg and terran tears are music to my evil ears.
You thought the final was boring? Well I must say I perversely and utterly enjoyed it, knowing that these kind of discussions will follow.
For me as a player i feel always like forcefield last for ages. My units are blocked in my base like forever with these 12 second forcefields. i see its problematic to reduce the duration of them, without making them useless. I was frustrated day one to play against forcefields in my chocke and the options to overcome them, like ultralisks, overlord drops, or burrowmovement always feels like alot to do against this one spell, especialy as a beginner. Because i very often feel helpless traped in my base i always wished for the abbility to destroy the forcefields. Destructable forcefields wich have hp is what i thought of this matter. They must pull agro maybe (or maybe not - not sure) also must have enough hp to be strong in the beginning to be able to be used against rushes but not being as powerfull in later stages of the game when stronger units of protoss are on the field. Maybe thats not a good idea because i didnt think it rhough alot but its something that would make me able to do something active against them in certain stages of the game.
On March 20 2011 05:25 Hozer wrote: It is very difficult reading these discussions when so many people are so blatantly focused on their own games and not with true balance of the game. It is very easy to spot both (P) players who are clearly just worried that they will need to do something different. Then there are (Z) players who are coming up with solutions that just make everything easier for them.
As a Zerg player, I dislike the current state of FFs. I completely understand their importance in in the protoss Gateway army. Having an ability that is so spammable, so easy to use, and just so insanely powerful seems wrong.
It will be difficult to shift FFs to a more acceptable role in the game, and protoss would need to be adjusted properly to give them proper options for early/mid/late and offense/defense. I think maps also really accentuate the problem with it, maps like Backwater Gulch. It is incredibly easy, and takes no skill/risk for a Protoss to block off the ramp and keep it blocked for an extended period of time.
Also, the game didn't change in the last 48 hours, nor in the last month or so (forget the date of the last balance patch) and that didn't change FF either. I think that even though the game hasn't changed, this was still a focal point of so much attention of the community, and we were able to see a single ability have what felt like too much of an impact on the most important series in the last couple months.
I would love for there to be a solution that was fair for all matchups, but that changes (not necessarily a direct nerf) FF.
Options I have read in this thread: -FF Channeled -Increase Energy -Limit to 1 on the field per Sentry -Change base cost and and starting energy to 75 -Cooldown -Reduce duration -Require the hexagons to clear
It seems like people that are suggesting changes aren't taking into consideration what the intended function of FF is, and that leads them to making suggestions that are not helpful. I think before we go making decisions for Blizzard on how to balance, we need to agree on exactly what role the FF is supposed to accomplish for (P), and distinguish what roles it is doing too well for them, then balance around that.
Excellent post. I completely agree. *Goes to create new thread*
On March 20 2011 05:07 DaCruise wrote: Havnt read every single page but how about this:
-Forcefields can no longer be placed on creep.
This way zerg, with fast creep spread, can prevent his ramp from getting blocked and protoss can still defend against early aggresion from stimmed mm´s or a 7rr. It could also potentially mean a huge battle in the late game for toss to prevent creep spread and for zerg to keep applying it.
I really like this idea. Like, a LOT. Sentries are intended to be defensive units (hence the name and other implications from Blizzard) to help Protoss take control of the battlefield near chokes and other terrain. Using Sentries on Creep to completely negate a defender's advancing troops seems to be unintended and against their ideal role (I'm a Protoss player, btw).
On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote: So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh? Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net
I think an interesting idea that I haven't seen brought up is making FF's target-able and giving them some amount of health. Now I understand that this would leave protoss vulnerable to early stim play but it looks as if stim will be pushed back 30 seconds and I'm not saying that they should have a small amount of health either. This could help the abuse that is happening in ZvP while created a new dynamic in early TvP and PvP.
It's funny how people tend to focus on one thing and one thing only, being how effective FFs were in those games and forget to think about why they were so effective. Game 1: July got fooled and overdroned which costed him the game. I am thinking soon zergs will start to sacrifice a little economy and pump drones only from the main hatch while stockpiling larvae in the natural hatch so ramp FF will be useless Game 2: July didn't wait for his burrow to finish (which was already too late to start with) and tried to save his 3rd hatch. If he waited it, he'd render the sentries pretty much useless given the big ramp @ Cravesse Game 4: Being on the lead 2:1 MC risked all in (only all in in the series) and it paid off. It might very much turn out the other way around if that overlord was 1 hex on the left. Game 5: After finaling stopping the timing push July didn't make the hydra range (i think) and fought off creep. 100% his mistake.
Put all these together and that's why sentries were so effective in these games. Not just because they are strolng but because of everything else. Kudos for MC for playing his opponent so smartly.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
dunno man, seem like you're just being a troll, maybe argue your point a bit more?
most of what is said about forcefield is that it is necessary to hold off early rushes, a change like this wouldn't take that use away, or make it significantly harder. you can still use them to create chokes as you see fit, you can still block your opponents ramp to prevent reinforcements.
overall i've never read here that splitting armies is an ability necessary for protoss, IMO what i'm proposing would even cause for more creative use of it. It would also give the opponent the chance to prevent them, balancing things out.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
dunno man, seem like you're just being a troll, maybe argue your point a bit more?
most of what is said about forcefield is that it is necessary to hold off early rushes, a change like this wouldn't take that use away, or make it significantly harder. you can still use them to create chokes as you see fit, you can still block your opponents ramp to prevent reinforcements.
overall i've never read here that splitting armies is an ability necessary for protoss, IMO what i'm proposing would even cause for more creative use of it. It would also give the opponent the chance to prevent them, balancing things out.
The most important use of the FFs IS to split armies. How many times have you heard Artosis and Tasteless talking about how FFs should be used?
"Split army --> lots in front ---> kill the part of the army ----> fall back"
And the reason why it has to be done this way, is because w/o splitting a T/Z army gates units suffer too many losses. And since they are sooo much more costly than the equivalent Z and T units, the toss loses over time, cause he has to dish out more resources to replenish his army.
Seriously... Are we forgetting July trashed vanvanszenith? Last time i checked it wasnt a PvP finals. This is basically a ff balance qq thread. Maybe MC is actually the better player just maybe.
On March 20 2011 05:54 VTPerfect wrote: Seriously... Are we forgetting July trashed vanvanszenith? Last time i checked it wasnt a PvP finals. This is basically a ff balance qq thread. Maybe MC is actually the better player just maybe.
He also trashed a faaaaaaar better P player than VVZenith. Namely Hongun. I dont remember anyone saying FFs are imba back then...
If you have the vods I recommend rewatching. Focus on how July didn't respond to forcefields in a decent way in any of the games. Also note how MC's forcefields basically went up instantly, with 0 overlap. Every time.
On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote: I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage.
FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
dunno man, seem like you're just being a troll, maybe argue your point a bit more?
most of what is said about forcefield is that it is necessary to hold off early rushes, a change like this wouldn't take that use away, or make it significantly harder. you can still use them to create chokes as you see fit, you can still block your opponents ramp to prevent reinforcements.
overall i've never read here that splitting armies is an ability necessary for protoss, IMO what i'm proposing would even cause for more creative use of it. It would also give the opponent the chance to prevent them, balancing things out.
The most important use of the FFs IS to split armies. How many times have you heard Artosis and Tasteless talking about how FFs should be used?
"Split army --> lots in front ---> kill the part of the army ----> fall back"
And the reason why it has to be done this way, is because w/o splitting a T/Z army gates units suffer too many losses. And since they are sooo much more costly than the equivalent Z and T units, the toss loses over time, cause he has to dish out more resources to replenish his army.
FFs are perfectly balanced the way they are.
It's the most used use of it because it obviously is the most powerful use of it, that doesn't make it the most necessary.
you could still create a wall, and pick units stuck in front with the superior range of stalkers (and colo). and, you can still split armies if your opponent isn't being careful enough. u can create chokes and get a concave, or abuse colossus splash. and so on...
anyway i've said what i wanted to say, thanks for responding.
I think the problem with FF is that is that cant be countered early game and it is a one-side spell.
About the counters first, I see 2 "soft counters" to it, Burrow and dropships pick up, but both burrowed units or units inside the dropships cant attack making this more of a workaround instead of a real counter and the dropships are too dangerous if the opponent has good ammount of stalkers and burrowed units are just too dumb to micro (mainly cause its the same hotkey for burrow and unburrow). most of time the zerg will simple cant reach his burrowed units again on the field if there are a bunch on top of it. The hard counters are Thors and Ultralisk. but if the Toss is doing a 2 base timing push and if he sees a Ultra. well. just go kill it and roll the base.
What I mean about the "one side" spell is that is all on the Protoss player hand. he uses FF fine. he is in advantage and there is not much he opponent can do. He uses it badly, he dies. But most of the big moments in game is when both players are trying to outmicro each other.
Few examples. Banelings against marines. Blings counter marines. but marine micro minimazes or even the damage. Thors counter mutars. but micro allows mutas to not fear thors. Hydras beat Stalkers. good blink micro allows stalkers to win.
Now FF just kill any real micro from the opponent. He cant do much other than pray for a FF miss which in Pro level. its asking too much.
One thing that could be done to help this a bit and give the opponent something to micro against is link the FF to the caster sentry. I mean. sentry dies. all his FF dies too.
This gives some micro opportunity for the opponent as in focus fire the low energy sentries and make the P treat sentries more like HT, in the back of the army.
One example of how this would change last night games. On first game on metal. MC simple cut all main base reinforcements with chain FF over the ramp making only the inital zerg army to fight and natural reinforcements. Problem is natural army is simple to small to so any real damage over the P army and the real army is trapped on the real base. but if the FF was linked to the sentry. the natural army could go and hunt for them instead of trying to damage stalkers or zealots
I agree completley with the OP. I hope blizz reads that post.
My suggestion would be to reduce the FF time. I mean 15 seconds is a really long time. Maybe reduce it ot like 10 or 8 seconds and I think it would be a little more balanced.
But I still like the overall concept of FF. It's just that in it's current state it is too powerful in the hands of good players.
On March 20 2011 06:04 happyness wrote: I agree completley with the OP. I hope blizz reads that post.
My suggestion would be to reduce the FF time. I mean 15 seconds is a really long time. Maybe reduce it ot like 10 or 8 seconds and I think it would be a little more balanced.
But I still like the overall concept of FF. It's just that in it's current state it is too powerful in the hands of good players.
I think they last longer than most fights last. I also think if you reduce the time they last to be less effective like only 4 seconds this might be problematic in the defence.
I also feel like forcefield take alot of speed out of the gmae in some points of the game. I think armysplitting in a battle is ok, but forcielfd in a chocke seem to be problematic and can make a game look onesided. The more i think about it the more i like the idea of giving forcefields hp and beind destructable. Maybe they need alot of hp like an Archon but that would still make me feel less helpless when one FF is blocking my chocke while the protoss destroyes my expo.
As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
So basically this is a long thought out QQ on forcefields. You can't talk about how ridiculously good it is without discussing why it needs to be that good in a subjective manner. This seems to be in the same line as nerf storm/nerf colossus posts, and I would ask you think about why these units need to be as good as they are. Also the think about the offensive advantage due to warp in is true only for 4 gate openings, other wise its meh (of course we can start the whole amulet discussion but lets skip it for now).
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
Why not emp the sentries? On the terran sides of things.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
An honest question, why not emp the sentries?
Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF?
FF should cost 75 or 100 energy or sentry supply should be increased to help slow the amount you can build up.
The whole hi i'm protoss and im going to spam FF from 10 sentries is getting old...
I think FF ramps shouldn't occur. I think the bottoms should be unFFable as well. I think you should have to get high ground vision to FF the top of the ramp to block enemy forces from joining the battle.
July would have been better off making 15 spine crawlers...
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
If I were to guess. Blizzard made FF for defensive purposes but did not anticipate the power of Offensive forcefields.
There are were abilities that were just as strong if not as strong in bw, but having ridiculous shit that changes up the mechanics makes it more interesting and strategically deeper. Yes, you can warp shit in, but with arbiters you can have your army instantly in the guys base lol. The use of these spells is what makes the different matchups so different. Without them it would be whatever race has the stronger ball vs the race trying to get an econ advantage with smaller units.
forcefields change the combat terrain and positioning at will. Enough said, what other spells do that?? Positioning is the foremost important thing in any battle, and ff's just creates any unfavorable position on demand to the opponent force.
Or put it this way, ff's have the ability to change the map temporarily by instantly creating impenetrable buildings anywhere, what other spells do that?
I suggest more units able to break ff's, other than massive units, eg, tanks, immortals, queens, and bulidings. Or the sentry that has casted any ff cannot attack. Or make it work like cloak ability which cost certain energy to cast but also energy to maintain it, so to cast multiple ff needs a lot of energy saved up, this way once the sentry dies its casted ff's die as well.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
Why not emp the sentries? On the terran sides of things.
True. Terrans at least have that option. But zerg has nothing, and FF is MORE powerful against zerg, even if terran didn't have EMP.
On March 20 2011 07:00 karlmengsk wrote: Increase Roach Range!
LOL Or maybe blizz should change the bunker build time. That seems to balance everything.
On March 20 2011 07:04 paradisefar wrote: forcefields change the combat terrain and positioning at will. Enough said, what other spells do that?? Positioning is the foremost important thing in any battle, and ff's just creates any unfavorable position on demand to the opponent force.
Or put it this way, ff's have the ability to change the map temporarily by instantly creating impenetrable buildings anywhere, what other spells do that?
I suggest more units able to break ff's, other than massive units, eg, tanks, immortals, queens, and bulidings. Or the sentry that has casted any ff cannot attack. Or make it work like cloak ability which cost certain energy to cast but also energy to maintain it, so to cast multiple ff needs a lot of energy saved up, this way once the sentry dies its casted ff's die as well.
Srsly man, upgrade burrow and burrow movement for your roaches and stop QQing.
Food for thought. What if funal growth lasted 15 seconds without damaging the enemy. Simply held them in their place unable to do anything while you had a field day picking apart their army and dancing in front of your opponent. This would be ridiculous. Similarly, constant FF's on a ramp is ridiculous. Defensively they are needed but offensivley, they completely negate micro and army positioning and reinforcements.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
An honest question, why not emp the sentries?
Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF?
Overrun them, like always.
But can you be more specific? At what point in the game? Isn't Zerg the race that especially wants to power? What's wrong with just droning up? If you're sad that FF is being used to block fast aggression against a Protoss, don't be; it's a defensive spell too. As far as in engagements later on, you have mutalisks and broodlords, baneling drops, and ultralisks. You can also flank with lower tier units and make sentries waste all their energy. Keep in mind that the more sentries a Protoss has, the fewer damage-dealing units he'll have. Sentries don't exactly attack very well, and 100 gas could be put towards two stalkers.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
If I were to guess. Blizzard made FF for defensive purposes but did not anticipate the power of Offensive forcefields.
Well I think blizz intended for them to be used offensively as well, but ya they probably didn't anticipate them to be used quite in the way MC and other protosses are now using them. Unless they wanted a spell that would cut off half of all of zerg's reinforcements.
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread.
I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good.
An honest question, why not emp the sentries?
Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF?
Overrun them, like always.
But can you be more specific? At what point in the game? Isn't Zerg the race that especially wants to power? What's wrong with just droning up? If you're sad that FF is being used to block fast aggression against a Protoss, don't be; it's a defensive spell too. As far as in engagements later on, you have mutalisks and broodlords, baneling drops, and ultralisks. You can also flank with lower tier units and make sentries waste all their energy. Keep in mind that the more sentries a Protoss has, the fewer damage-dealing units he'll have. Sentries don't exactly attack very well, and 100 gas could be put towards two stalkers.
That seems to be the problem, though -- with FF, Protoss players can dictate the aggression/passivity of the match. They can use it to turtle, but they can also use it to pressure. HuK does it often with his zealot/sentry aggression and it's extremely powerful.
I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see anyone here mentioning how JulyZerg played like complete shit.
Now, I'm only a lowly masters zerg, but EVERY masters zerg knows the counter to a 6 gate: BURROW SPEED ROACHES. In every game July hit lair, and got roach speed, and a HYDRA DEN. Hydras are USELESS against a 6 gate. You absolutely NEED burrow, or you will die EVERY TIME to a 6 gate. If July had forgone the hydra den by just a small amount of time, he EASILY could've had burrow out in time - in fact in many of those game he didn't even build a single hydra, but he lost because he didn't have burrow.
July's ZvP is pretty atrocious - MC is fucking boss, and July showed that he was CLEARLY the weaker player. /thread
Why don't make FF like buildings in the way that you cant build something over a unit. You could still defend against rushes, and would raise the skill sealing of FF way higher.
1) Reduce FF duration to 12 seconds 2) Either a) No overlapping of FF or b) FF cast has a cooldown time of 1-3 seconds
The result is that FF are still available to toss early game so they don't auto lose to early timings, but mid and late game requires the toss to be more precise and accurate with their forcefields so that if they massed sentries, they won't be too powerful.
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
So sentrys should basicly be ramp blocker with a guardian shield?
8 sentries can still make 8 ffs, which is easily enough for most ways on the maps... but it would be much harder b/c they all need to be in the right position. probably too hard on P :E
Yes, and the utility of sentries is already QUITE taxed on larger maps where they're a further hindrance with they abhorrent movespeed and the fact that surrounding a protoss army forces TONS of forcefield, or auto-death.
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
On March 20 2011 07:14 pwnasaurus wrote: I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see anyone here mentioning how JulyZerg played like complete shit.
Now, I'm only a lowly masters zerg, but EVERY masters zerg knows the counter to a 6 gate: BURROW SPEED ROACHES. In every game July hit lair, and got roach speed, and a HYDRA DEN. Hydras are USELESS against a 6 gate. You absolutely NEED burrow, or you will die EVERY TIME to a 6 gate. If July had forgone the hydra den by just a small amount of time, he EASILY could've had burrow out in time - in fact in many of those game he didn't even build a single hydra, but he lost because he didn't have burrow.
July's ZvP is pretty atrocious - MC is fucking boss, and July showed that he was CLEARLY the weaker player. /thread
Can someone address this please? I can't possibly be the only one with this opinion. It's been known for months and months now that burrow HARD counters a 6 gate.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs: 1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower 2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it 3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time
Force fields are good for the game. What they do is sort of like what storms/banelings forced players to do: Spread and micro.
How about instead of attacking in a ball(thus allowing half of it to get cut off) you just attack in a straight line. Example:
Not only that it encourages more macro intensive things such as creep spread(in order to get straight to their army.)
Roach burrow, better unit positioning, creep spread, actually getting hydra range, all these are great counters to what MC did.
The reason why MC made them look so OP was that his build involved getting an abnormal amount of sentries, and the fact that July just played so bad. Engaged OFF creep with unranged hydras, constantly let his army get ff'd, and just in general played worse than MC.
Suggesting changes out of the blue is silly. A better idea, would be to examine the uses of forcefields, then see if some are too strong or too weak, and then only suggest changes once the actual problems have been identified
Here is off the top of my had some things you can do with forcefields:
- Delay an attack - Delay reinforcements - Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, defensively. - Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, ofensively. - Safely retreat your army when you are in a losing battle. - Prevent your opponent from retreating with his army when he is in a losing battle. - Nullify melee units - Make it easier to abuse a range advantage when your units can shoot further than your opponent's units. - Stop units from spawning (wehn placed on top of eggs for example) - Screw up the movement AI of all enemy units in a fight that involves forcefields - Make it impossible for your oponent to have a positional advantage (nulifying concaves, and surrounds) - Make it possible for your army to get a positional advantage. - Prevent/stop workers from mining - Stop workers from repairing - Prevent workers from placing structures
- Im sure Im missing a few, forcefields are pretty versatile
So before randomly throwing out ideas like "no forcefields on creep!", or "1 forcefield only per sentry" etc, it would be a good idea to look at this list, add to it if needed, then decide which ones are needed (if any), and which ones are too strong/shouldnt exist (if any), and only then try to come up with a solution, explaining why that solution would be the best, how it would fix the problem you identified, and how it would leave the needed uses unaffected.
Im not in favor of balance QQ, and balance suggestions. But if really you need to do it, at least do it properly, in a somewhat constructive manner, instead of randomly throwing suggestions around.
On March 20 2011 07:45 Pandain wrote: Force fields are good for the game. What they do is sort of like what storms/banelings forced players to do: Spread and micro.
How about instead of attacking in a ball(thus allowing half of it to get cut off) you just attack in a straight line. Example:
Not only that it encourages more macro intensive things such as creep spread(in order to get straight to their army.)
Roach burrow, better unit positioning, creep spread, actually getting hydra range, all these are great counters to what MC did.
The reason why MC made them look so OP was that his build involved getting an abnormal amount of sentries, and the fact that July just played so bad. Engaged OFF creep with unranged hydras, constantly let his army get ff'd, and just in general played worse than MC.
Is this post even serious? If you attack in a line the toss doesn't even need to FF...
On March 20 2011 07:37 pwnasaurus wrote: I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs: 1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower 2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it 3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time
I think July did botch those last two games, but as for the first two MC looked unstoppable. In game two, for example, he hit at a time MC knew zergs usually don't have burrow finished, and it's gg from there. And july wasn't going for hydras that game.
On March 20 2011 07:37 pwnasaurus wrote: I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs: 1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower 2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it 3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time
I think July did botch those last two games, but as for the first two MC looked unstoppable. In game two, for example, he hit at a time MC knew zergs usually don't have burrow finished, and it's gg from there. And july wasn't going for hydras that game.
The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Game 2 - maybe you need to re-watch. He gets a hydra den RIGHT at lair - if instead that had been burrow, it would've been over.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Baneling bombs are gaining a lot of popularity. They do well against heavy sentry play.
On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote: baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF.
you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100?
if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of defending his expansion?
zergs sure are greedy this days...
Actually zergs are probably less greedy than ever, because there is so much they have to prepare for. If you show a replay of a good player who holds off a well timed 6-gate then I will believe you, otherwise "baneling drops on sentry + roach" doesn't seem viable.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Baneling bombs are gaining a lot of popularity. They do well against heavy sentry play.
the amount of planning(which has to go 100% according to plan) and (luck of course) that has to occur for a successful baneling drop is rediulous. that is why pros dont do it alot its easy to move away from a drop, you have concuct a outragous plan
i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go. i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game cause Zerglings rape everything that comes out of a gateway (yes even Zealots)
4zerlings > 1 Zealot (and with full surround even better) no protoss will ever dare to attack you (except a std 4 gate) to attack without sentrys.
On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote: baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF.
you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100?
if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of getting up a nexus!
zergs sure are greedy this days...
It's not about the gas investment, it's about the time investment. By the time you realize a 6 gate is coming (very easy to deny zerg scouting early game), there isn't enough time to get drops out - do you realize how long drops take to research, not to mention that you can't just be sitting there with 200/200 banked waiting to start drops because of the off-chance your opponent might be 6 gating you. This is such an ignorant post.
A zerg absolutely has to focus on economy early to be able to stop a 6 gate rush, and getting that economy up while getting drops + overlord speed + roaches + banelings is simply impossible.
That's why I keep advocating burrow - speed roaches are a must right at lair, and July did that every game. Burrow is also pretty much necessary, and, like FF, cannot be countered when doing a 6 gate, as the protoss will not have a robo. Someone with the control of MC would probably be able to mitigate drops of slow banes (not to mention it would be max 6-8 banes, which just barely kill a single stalker).
While baneling drops later on, especially paired with infestors for fungal, can be really good, they are simply not viable to stop a 6 gate rush.
On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote: i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go. i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever.
What i dont see is why EMP is so good, you have to build the seperate tech structure and it costs a rediculous amount of gas. you have to buy expensive cloak and a factory is needed for it too make nukes. ghosts should be easier to use so templar arnt so effective
On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote: i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go. i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever.
good luck making that cost efficient
Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P) quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well
On March 20 2011 08:15 ThisGuy wrote: What i dont see is why EMP is so good, you have to build the seperate tech structure and it costs a rediculous amount of gas. you have to buy expensive cloak and a factory is needed for it too make nukes. ghosts should be easier to use so templar arnt so effective
Lol? If you could get ghosts out without a separate tech building how in the world do you expect a protoss to hold off a 3-gate stim timing with EMP?
On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote: i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go. i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever.
good luck making that cost efficient
Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P) quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well
so they trap your roaches in with FF's, even if (major if) kill all the sentries you will lose your roaches since you spent time attacking 4+ sentries or atleast a good chunk of them. its just so unprobable that your statement is rediculous on so many levels.
if you roach rush, your putting a hole into your economy if you dont, you push out with slow roaches you lose if you wait for roach speed, you might be able to do some damage if you catch em off gaurd, but they will have alot of units by then at pro level gl this is what idra has been talking about for a while
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is).
If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july.
On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote: i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go. i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever.
good luck making that cost efficient
Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P) quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well
so they trap your roaches in with FF's, even if (major if) kill all the sentries you will lose your roaches since you spent time attacking 4+ sentries or atleast a good chunk of them. its just so unprobable that your statement is rediculous on so many levels.
if you roach rush, your putting a hole into your economy if you dont, you push out with slow roaches you lose if you wait for roach speed, you might be able to do some damage if you catch em off gaurd, but they will have alot of units by then at pro level gl this is what idra has been talking about for a while
he only mentioned collosus vs corruptor and possibly hydra issues. He has never stated or implied any "unfair advantage" from sentries. AS FAR AS I KNOW, could be wrong.
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is).
If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july.
It's not realistic to have tunneling claws out in time for a 6 gate - in fact I'd say it's even impossible (while maintaining a half-decent economy). As you can see from the finals last night, the 6 gate hits RIGHT as speed is finishing for roaches (along with burrow) assuming both were started right at lair with standard lair timing. It is extremely realistic to have burrow, though, which 100% negates FF with no detection.
On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote: The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh. In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker. The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive. Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries. It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game.
The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent.
Are forcefields broken at mid-masters and lower? Probably not. I think they add some cool flavor. The problem is when you get a player such as MC that comes somewhat close to using them to their full potential. That's when the problem is made apparent. Thinking back I'm not really sure what July should have done different to affect the outcome of the series. Sentries coupled with blink makes the protoss army so incredibly cost efficient that I'm really at a lose on how to counter it. You can transition from it so easily as well.
If others adapt this style I think we'll see a pvt finals next gsl unless someone comes up with a counter to it, but I'm not sure what the counter is.
I guess the tl;dr is basically: The push can be somewhat volatile with how many sentries there are in there. They're easily killed. But if you control it just right the zerg cannot counter it. The Zerg has to rely on the Protoss making a mistake.
Yeah, im pretty concerned about FFs down the road(1-2 years) when your average joe will nail 99.99% of his forcefields perfectly, MC showed us how powerful it is when used correctly.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
How many people honestly thought July stood a chance against MC? A very small numbers. I didnt watch the finals because i was too tired to last night and i knew what the result would be. I dont understand how 5 different forcefield threads can pop up just because of the finals, unless MC went pure sentry all 5 games and won like that. MC is one of the best players in the world, if not the best right now, July was a huge underdog, with an aggressive style that MC knows how to fight against. On the TL "ask the pros" thread, 2 maybe 3 people said july would win, and even their reasoning was i want a zerg to win because it would be cool, not because hes the better player.
The problem with sentries is much like the problem with orbital commands, you need the forcefields and mules early game to keep up and not die, but late game they are extremely powerful because they give you a lot of extra flexibility. If forcefields were changed for the worse, there is little chance a protoss could survive a stim push because they need to be able to split the terran army and kill it.
As i dont play zerg, i dont know what can be done in that respect, but as terran, a good solution is to get fast thors, since theyre good against everything. I know how hard it is for zerg to get hive tech before super late game, and even then, ultras and broodlords and underwhelming.
On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote: Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field. Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is).
If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july.
It's not realistic to have tunneling claws out in time for a 6 gate - in fact I'd say it's even impossible (while maintaining a half-decent economy). As you can see from the finals last night, the 6 gate hits RIGHT as speed is finishing for roaches (along with burrow) assuming both were started right at lair with standard lair timing. It is extremely realistic to have burrow, though, which 100% negates FF with no detection.
Yea i was more talking about the shakuras game for the tunneling claws i should have specified. Im in platinum and i suck but ive had a zerg have tunneling claws by the time my 4 gate hits before and he won its not a very good example since the level of play is so much different but you defenetly could have tunneling claws its just weather it is to much of an investment to get that early wich is up in the air id say since mc's army consisted of mostly sentries when he first engaged and sentries do pretty badly if roaches pop up right on top of them. but burrow alone would have completely changed the effectiveness of mc's 6 gate pushes, without burrow they were "super effective"
On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote: The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh. In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker. The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive. Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries. It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game.
The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent.
So you want to dumb the game down so mindgames are not possible? + Show Spoiler +
Honestly speaking from a neutral perspective it just seemed like MC was on step ahead of july. He totally outclassed him and the result was expected by most people who understand the game. what was it like 23-6 pros or something that favored MC, so a 4-1 result wasnt exactly surprising anyone. I agree ZvP favors P but the reason is not sentries.
People need to let the game play out and see how the pros respond to builds and adapt. Its like freshmen college students attempting to discuss PhD material. While they may have some core basics down, they have not dedicated the time and do not have the understanding the pros have.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
It seems like every thread on this subject ends with "nerf forcefields in X fashion". Considering that the forcefield OP discussion was dead in the water before the GSL finals, it's not the forcefields that are the issue.
The bigger concern is the lack of options on hatchery tech. Sentry play is optional but completely natural considering that the cybernetics core is needed to open up the entire Protoss tech tree, and FF doesn't have to be researched to be used. Meanwhile Terran players can build the GA immediately after barracks and get Snipe/EMP with a little waiting time. And Zerg gets...Queens. Units that cannot travel off-creep and take forever to make.
That is a good point, and one I hadn't fully realized. MC, however, was fielding several stalkers (several more than you would have in a 3-gate expand), and July also could have potentially been able to tell something was up when he saw so many units, along with the really aggressive stance MC was taking with them - a level of aggression I have never seen with a standard 3-gate expand.
July played it wrong that's pretty much all. A perfectly timed 6 gate push with blink coming as you are attacking will probably always beat hydra ling. Burrowed roaches pretty much negates forcefields and they're cheaper and faster to get out.
Any high masters protoss will tell you that sentries are only cheap early game. If you were to lose a good amount of them from an emp, second wave of mnm or roaches, your mid to end game will be very weak.
On March 20 2011 08:39 Zidane wrote: July played it wrong that's pretty much all. A perfectly timed 6 gate push with blink coming as you are attacking will probably always beat hydra ling. Burrowed roaches pretty much negates forcefields and they're cheaper and faster to get out.
Any high masters protoss will tell you that sentries are only cheap early game. If you were to lose a good amount of them from an emp, second wave of mnm or roaches, your mid to end game will be very weak.
Bingo. IMO July played absolutely horribly, except in the game on Terminus. And even in that game, if MC had stopped at 2-3 pheonixes, he would've possibly held with a collosus and some extra gateway units.
On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote: The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh. In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker. The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive. Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries. It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game.
The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent.
So you want to dumb the game down so mindgames are not possible?
I didnt say that. I didnt say anything about changing the game, in fact. Im just mentioning the fact that sentries being so powerful both on offense and defense did play a big role in that first match, because its only thanks to the sentries that the protoss was able to trick zerg, while losing so little in offense. Its the same thing with other units too. If a zerg makes spine crawlers to defend and "trick" the opponent, when in fact he wants to attack, its a significant cost to his offense. The trick means his opponent is less prepared, but his offensive army is also much weaker. In that game, the nexus cancel cost some money, making his offensive army weaker by 1 zealot. The sentries, while they did help trick the zerg, were in fact not weakening the toss army much, if at all.
You are the one talking about dumbing the game down, I made no suggestions, n balance statements, and so on, just helping explain what actually happened, and what allowed it to happen and be so powerful.
Why not give hydras an ability to deal with forcefields like ram or something? It would make the game more dynamic, would only affect zvp, and doesn't come out until tier 2. It would make hydras more useful, and make micro more exciting.
Nice article! I do think forcefields are a bit too strong considering how easy they are to get. I also really do agree with the aspect of how they go against RTS fundamentals. Perhaps if they required a lot of skill to pull off that would be nice but...planting a forcefield anywhere (i.e. a ramp) isn't exactly difficult.
Funny enough, I thought of giving the sentries earlier energy start but more expensive forcefield as well! It would stall for the rushes which protoss needs, but also would require more skill and would be less abusable offensively.
On March 20 2011 08:52 Yogurt wrote: Why not give hydras an ability to deal with forcefields like ram or something? It would make the game more dynamic, would only affect zvp, and doesn't come out until tier 2. It would make hydras more useful, and make micro more exciting.
Suggesting changes out of the blue is silly. A better idea, would be to examine the uses of forcefields, then see if some are too strong or too weak, and then only suggest changes once the actual problems have been identified
Here is off the top of my had some things you can do with forcefields:
- Delay an attack - Delay reinforcements - Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, defensively. - Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, ofensively. - Safely retreat your army when you are in a losing battle. - Prevent your opponent from retreating with his army when he is in a losing battle. - Nullify melee units - Make it easier to abuse a range advantage when your units can shoot further than your opponent's units. - Stop units from spawning (wehn placed on top of eggs for example) - Screw up the movement AI of all enemy units in a fight that involves forcefields - Make it impossible for your oponent to have a positional advantage (nulifying concaves, and surrounds) - Make it possible for your army to get a positional advantage. - Prevent/stop workers from mining - Stop workers from repairing - Prevent workers from placing structures
- Im sure Im missing a few, forcefields are pretty versatile
So before randomly throwing out ideas like "no forcefields on creep!", or "1 forcefield only per sentry" etc, it would be a good idea to look at this list, add to it if needed, then decide which ones are needed (if any), and which ones are too strong/shouldnt exist (if any), and only then try to come up with a solution, explaining why that solution would be the best, how it would fix the problem you identified, and how it would leave the needed uses unaffected.
Im not in favor of balance QQ, and balance suggestions. But if really you need to do it, at least do it properly, in a somewhat constructive manner, instead of randomly throwing suggestions around.
rofl do any of you that are suggesting a ff nerf play protoss? do you understand how vital they are to surviving all early pressure in every matchup? Don't talk about nerfing a game mechanic that is perfectly fine as is (and has been argued before and was dead in the water before last night) just because you see 1 person who has extremely good control, something that only 1% of the people here would be able to replicate.
Seriously the amount of QQ in this forum is absurd. How about everyone just learns to adapt to the game instead of trying to theorycraft a balance for a race that you don't understand the mechanisms/timings of. So pathetic how every bit of skill turns into "WOW OP NERF NEEDED NOW" instead of a solid discussion on how to combat that strategy.
Not sure if this has been mentioned or not but, how about not being able to place forcefields on creep? protoss keeps its defense and no nerfs to ff vs terran, it will give zerg incentive to keep a good creep spread and will stop blocking of the zergs ramp in the early game.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
Except that you can safely get a T3 unit out early. Zerg can't get ultras out safely. Totally silly comparison.
Not that I think FF's are OP or whatever. Just saying, it's a silly comparison.
On March 20 2011 08:58 jaiiiii wrote: rofl do any of you that are suggesting a ff nerf play protoss? do you understand how vital they are to surviving all early pressure in every matchup? Don't talk about nerfing a game mechanic that is perfectly fine as is (and has been argued before and was dead in the water before last night) just because you see 1 person who has extremely good control, something that only 1% of the people here would be able to replicate.
Seriously the amount of QQ in this forum is absurd. How about everyone just learns to adapt to the game instead of trying to theorycraft a balance for a race that you don't understand the mechanisms/timings of. So pathetic how every bit of skill turns into "WOW OP NERF NEEDED NOW" instead of a solid discussion on how to combat that strategy.
FFs are only necessary against T timing pushes. Zerg gets the worst of it for many reasons.
Making it so that the Forcefields disappear after they take some ambiguous amount of damage might seem reasonable. Give them zero threat so that players will have to manually target the forcefields.
First of all, this is a great topic for discussion and I'd like to laud the OP for bringing it up in a very detailed, discussion-worthy manner rather than all the "XXX is OP" arguments we see.
One aspect of the forcefield that I don't think you touch on enough is its early-game importance for Protoss. Unlike the other two races, Protoss players don't have the ability to pump out low-cost units for early defense. Without sentries available to FF a ramp, any sort of early rush would annihilate Protoss openings. That being said, I do believe that FF is very powerful in certain situations, as OP detailed in his post. Even if FF is "overpowered" in those cases, I feel that it complements Protoss gameplay very well.
Forcefielding really falls into two categories: defensive and offensive. In terms of defense, FF is vital to Protoss gameplay. I already mentioned its necessity in the early-game, but I'd also like to point out the relative immobility of the typical Protoss gateway army when compared to the other two races. Terran bio armies, which are very typical in all early/mid-game MUs, are able to use stims to micro around armies, or to retreat. Zerg players have cracklings and roaches with a possible speed upgrade, as well as a movement bonus on creep. Protoss? Stalkers are very mobile and quick, which makes them powerful in the extremely early phases of the game, but their usefulness decreases as both players begin to create a larger army. Zealots are very easy to micro around given their slow movement speed (until Charge, of course). Because of this inherent disadvantage to those two basic units, the Sentry is necessary to complement them and give Protoss players a chance in battles with only gateway units, as they nullify the advantages of the other two races with FF, while also allowing the Protoss army to retreat, if necessary, by blocking off the opposing forces.
Although FF may feel too powerful offensively at the moment (especially given MC's stomping of July in the finals), that feeling may simply be a new timing that is only now being discovered. For a moment, I'd like to hearken back to the days of GSL 2 and draw a comparison between the MarineKing of then and MC now. In GSL 2, MarineKing demonstrated a tactic that has since become a staple of Terran play: the idea that marines, once stimmed, can actually defeat a baneling army. MK sparked the first revolution in SC2's play with his style, exploiting this tactic against players who had no idea how to combat it. Fast forward to today: though MK still does base his play primarily on early marine aggression, it is by no means his bread and butter. MK even went for a mech style against Kyrix, which resulted in a win. In the months between his debut onto the SC2 scene and now, MK's once-revolutionary style was imitated by many players to different degrees, in both the public ladders and in the proscene. Because of this widespread imitation, other players began to learn the inherent weaknesses of MK's style, and found ways to defeat it. MarineKing's revolution of then is very similar to MC's tactics when using FF. In the finals, MC came out with several new builds he had cooked up, which July was not prepared for. In the games in which MC "abused" FF, July did have Burrow researching, which seems a suitable response to combat the incoming forces. However, MC successfully exploited the timing before Burrow finished, giving him wins in those games. Though July seemed to have some idea of what was coming, his timings seemed...off. Not really wrong, just off. It seemed like when July planned his builds out, he simply didn't prepare for the possibility of FFs. Not to mention that MC straight-up tricked July in a few of the games (Faked 3 gate expo into 4 gate? O_O).
I'd just like to finish with this: to all the players who cry "FF needs to be nerfed," instead try to find new ways to exploit the weaknesses of it. While I never really played SC1, I've frequently heard the argument that, in SC1, because every race had theoretically "OP" units, the games were much more exciting. So, instead of crying and whining to Blizzard to help you out, maybe think about the other player's point of view, and how you can exploit their styles of gameplay rather than "balancing" them to conform to your own "standard" gameplay.
On March 20 2011 08:58 jaiiiii wrote: rofl do any of you that are suggesting a ff nerf play protoss? do you understand how vital they are to surviving all early pressure in every matchup? Don't talk about nerfing a game mechanic that is perfectly fine as is (and has been argued before and was dead in the water before last night) just because you see 1 person who has extremely good control, something that only 1% of the people here would be able to replicate.
Seriously the amount of QQ in this forum is absurd. How about everyone just learns to adapt to the game instead of trying to theorycraft a balance for a race that you don't understand the mechanisms/timings of. So pathetic how every bit of skill turns into "WOW OP NERF NEEDED NOW" instead of a solid discussion on how to combat that strategy.
FFs are only necessary against T timing pushes. Zerg gets the worst of it for many reasons.
That is just not true. Without FF P would die to Z timing pushes all day.
Look, I'm not seeing why forcefield is broken. 100 gas per sentry is an absurd amount, and gateway units per cost are absolutely demolished by stim-bio, roaches (if no blink), and hydras. I'm going to say what I think is the cold, hard truth, and I welcome a response: A 12 sentry push is a very fragile attack that can be solidly held off by a Zerg with good unit composition and the ability to scout.
2-rax marines were considered utterly imbalanced at one point, with Dustin Browder saying Blizzard was "very concerned" about the situation. Zergs learned to deal with it, and most Terrans today use it as only an opener, because it's all-in variant is solidly countered by top-level Zs. Roach burrow solidly counters MC's style, as does better scouting: MC isn't getting enough credit for psyching out July; the FFs were only useful because the unit count for Z wasn't high enough to deal with the attack all at once. We may have seen the beginning of a metagame shift for midgame ZvP, not "proof" that FFs are "imba."
MC played BRILLIANT mindgames with July, and made sure he was unprepared for the attacks.
Question: What game did July play better than MC and lose? As far as I could tell, while July is an incredibly talented Zerg, he was outplayed. Period. It wasn't imba forcefields, it wasn't imba colossi, it wasn't broken void rays, it wasn't overpowered HTs... he was just beaten. Convincingly.
JulyZerg: (A) made massive mistakes in several games (G1: ZERO micro with burrowed roaches, failing to respond to obvious tells that it wasn't a 3 gate sentry expand, greedily going for Hydra Den right after Roach Warren without creating any attack units in between; G2: Taking the "safe" expo first, failing to respond quickly with massive unit pumps when he saw 6 warpgates, not keeping lings at the front of MC's base to see the move-out, not getting burrow quickly, and MOST EGREGIOUSLY: G5: What the HELL were all his hydras doing dancing around off-creep in the middle of the map?!)
(B) Was unlucky (G4: Didn't spot the dark shrine even though his overlord was scouting maybe 2 hexes out of sight range of it... T_T)
--That being said, JulyZerg is clearly a top-tier Zerg talent; not saying he isn't a very worthy Finalist. Just saying he just isn't on the same tier as MC.
MC simply outclassed JulyZerg; I agree with someone who said earlier that HuK, iNControl, Genius, etc. would likely not have had nearly as much success pulling off these kinds of strategies. Other Protoss know how to use FFs too; they don't insta-win with 6 gates: it's a viable and strong strategy, but one that can be countered.
EDIT: I'm sure in in 1998 people were screaming that Arbiters (THEY CLOAK EVERYTHING!) and Dark Swarm (MY MARINES AND TANKS ARE USELESS!) were utterly broken. Their philosophical ancestors are roaming these forums today. I hope instead of nerf hammers, we see development of the metagame.
MC is a sick player, he has abilities, training partners, free time and reactions the rest of us can only dream of.
To take ANYTHING he does, and apply "balance" to it, for even high masters - is stupid. What he does will not affect 95% of players in this game, so dont act as if FF needs to be fixed for the majority of the game.
A lot of complaints in this thread seem to assume that sentries have much more energy than they do - you cant rush early game and have crazy amounts of FF - the only reason MC seemed to have such is because he was SO sentry heavy early, and tricked July into thinking this was for defensive reasons (multiple times). In lots of the games, the reasons he had so many FF's was because he made a CRAZY amount of sentries.
Given all of these modifiers -it is crazy to assume or claim that FFs are the problem, because guess what - if you make a huge amount of sentries, you have a lot of FFs.
On March 20 2011 08:34 MadCatZ wrote: maybe you should upgrade weps+shields
maybe you should get overlord drops
see how that logic works?...
we were talking about TvP see how your logic does not work? you should think before you speak
His argument is that saying Zerg needs T3 to deal with Protoss T1 is similar to Protoss needing T3 to deal with Terran T1. He makes the point that if Protoss could use early weapons/armor/shield upgrades to combat Terran T1 (without T3) then Zerg can use early burrow/overlord drop research to fight Protoss T1 (without T3).
On the topic of forcefields; I'm obviously biased, playing Protoss, but I think that they are fine as they are right now. If you remember the days of mass Mutalisk from Zerg, you'll see that Protoss needed to discover the 6gate push to combat it efficiently once it got to late game. It wasn't about killing the mutalisks - it was about killing the Zerg before he got Mutalisks in any significant number. It relied on mutalisks being really, really, really awful in head-on engagements, and equally awful at base racing, so they'd be forced to fight as they spawned.
I think this might be a similar issue for Zerg. Sentries, as has been pointed out, are really awful at 1 vs 1 engagements for dealing damage or tanking damage. Their sole use is accumulating energy to make the fight easier with forcefields (by separating the army so it can be slaughtered). I think that Zerg will be forced to come out with a safer way of lowering their energy to keep them from becoming unstoppable on the assault - perhaps a much greater commitment to early game speedlings or roaches, or a fast burrow. The point is to exploit some weakness of the build, which is a lot of energy and a slow moving army.
In this case, it really is a case of "find something to prevent the issue" rather than a "how can I deal with it once it's at my base killing my stuff"?
What if forcefields deteriorated faster when placed on creep? It would reinforce the creep mechanic (which is a really interesting one), it would help zerg out at defending these early pushes involving sentries (which you're a fool if you think are perfectly balanced, being able to cut half a zerg army off when you're doing an already incredibly powerful timing attack? Come on.), and it wouldn't hurt Protoss at all when it comes to defending early attacks - it would just reinforce the sentry's role as a defensive unit.
On March 20 2011 09:40 MonsieurGrimm wrote: What if forcefields deteriorated faster when placed on creep? It would reinforce the creep mechanic (which is a really interesting one), it would help zerg out at defending these early pushes involving sentries (which you're a fool if you think are perfectly balanced, being able to cut half a zerg army off when you're doing an already incredibly powerful timing attack? Come on.), and it wouldn't hurt Protoss at all when it comes to defending early attacks - it would just reinforce the sentry's role as a defensive unit.
This sounds like an incredible suggestion. I would love to see something like this on the PTR. Even if they down to 10-12 instead of 15 sec it would make a huge difference.
still love a toss getting early sentrys, gives me a nice advantage in the early game. But i don't think there is a great issues with force fields. The only thing it gets a bit mean is when combined with siege units that outrange the opponent. But with a heavy sentry start and a siege unit tech, you should be able to do tech up something against those fields.
I actually wish July made a baneling's nest, cut drones before the 6 gate push came, and put alot of pressure on MC before he would move out. I've seen replays, and I've played games myself, where if I see that many sentries being made, I throw a baneling's nest. Yes, banelings are slow off creep without the speed upgrade (which you probably won't get in time), but it at least puts the toss player on the defensive if the zerg player attacks, maybe forces him to waste forcefields before he gets to your natural.
I just think, after reading many well thought out posts and suggestions, that immediately jumping to balance discussion of a unit right after one best of 7 might be too premature. I definitely think there are strats, build orders, and play styles that can deal with mass sentries.
If forcefield is so good and requires a nerf why has there only been 1 GSL Protoss finalist and champion (MC) while Terran and Zerg got respectively 4 and 3 different finalists... Sentries have been left untouched since the release of the game...
A lot of complaints in this thread seem to assume that sentries have much more energy than they do - you cant rush early game and have crazy amounts of FF - the only reason MC seemed to have such is because he was SO sentry heavy early, and tricked July into thinking this was for defensive reasons (multiple times). In lots of the games, the reasons he had so many FF's was because he made a CRAZY amount of sentries.
Given all of these modifiers -it is crazy to assume or claim that FFs are the problem, because guess what - if you make a huge amount of sentries, you have a lot of FFs.
Hm? Your reasoning, is that since MC made a ton of sentries for a ton of forcefields, FF cant be a problem? I think if anything, the fact that such a good player made such a huge amounts of sentries (which are pretty bad in straight up combat), and used so many forcefields for such a convincing win, should show that they are pretty powerful.
A small look at the engagements: Game 1: 11 forcefields, 7 initial sentries Game 2: 17 forcefields off 11 sentries, adding some more sentries and some more forcefields after being inside july's nat. Game 3: 9 forcefields off 10 sentries (he lost there) game 4: 18 forcefields off 7 sentries game 5: 19 forcefields off 10 sentries, then 7 more from the surviving initial sentries
So yeah, when you put that in numbers, it really starts to be a LOT of forcefields MC made a lot of sentries in the first place, I mean, 7-11 sentries is quite a lot of them, but damn, thats also an incredible amount of forcefields he gets out of them, and ofc, they are perfectly placed
On March 20 2011 09:40 MonsieurGrimm wrote: What if forcefields deteriorated faster when placed on creep? It would reinforce the creep mechanic (which is a really interesting one), it would help zerg out at defending these early pushes involving sentries (which you're a fool if you think are perfectly balanced, being able to cut half a zerg army off when you're doing an already incredibly powerful timing attack? Come on.), and it wouldn't hurt Protoss at all when it comes to defending early attacks - it would just reinforce the sentry's role as a defensive unit.
thats actually a really good idea, i dont want to see a huge change in time, bot down to 12 or 11 seconds sure
We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
I'd just like to finish with this: to all the players who cry "FF needs to be nerfed," instead try to find new ways to exploit the weaknesses of it. While I never really played SC1, I've frequently heard the argument that, in SC1, because every race had theoretically "OP" units, the games were much more exciting. So, instead of crying and whining to Blizzard to help you out, maybe think about the other player's point of view, and how you can exploit their styles of gameplay rather than "balancing" them to conform to your own "standard" gameplay.
The difference is this time around zerg doesn't really have that "OP" unit or spell anymore, at least not against protoss. Versus Terran we have the mutalisk, when the mutalisk comes out the game completely changes, aggression needs to be more thought out and the terran needs to worry about defending his base etc. Versus protoss i feel like zerg has no scary units for them, protoss is extremely strong in all parts of the game, early, mid and late and theres no unit, spell or mechanic that could really make a protoss worry, in fact i've seen pro level games where the protoss never scouts once during a 20 minute game and still rolfstomps any army the zerg has.
I'd just like to finish with this: to all the players who cry "FF needs to be nerfed," instead try to find new ways to exploit the weaknesses of it. While I never really played SC1, I've frequently heard the argument that, in SC1, because every race had theoretically "OP" units, the games were much more exciting. So, instead of crying and whining to Blizzard to help you out, maybe think about the other player's point of view, and how you can exploit their styles of gameplay rather than "balancing" them to conform to your own "standard" gameplay.
The difference is this time around zerg doesn't really have that "OP" unit or spell anymore, at least not against protoss. Versus Terran we have the mutalisk, when the mutalisk comes out the game completely changes, aggression needs to be more thought out and the terran needs to worry about defending his base etc. Versus protoss i feel like zerg has no scary units for them, protoss is extremely strong in all parts of the game, early, mid and late and theres no unit, spell or mechanic that could really make a protoss worry, in fact i've seen pro level games where the protoss never scouts once during a 20 minute game and still rolfstomps any army the zerg has.
Roaches can burrow under a forcefield, which makes forcefields useless. That's pretty OP, right?
If roaches didn't have tunneling claws, then Zerg might have a case against FFs.
On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion
yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
I like the idea of FFs not being able to be placed where units currently are (as a Zerg player ), but I can recognize that that would actually hurt Toss a ton. I feel like it'd be way too hard to protect your sentries while you're pushing across the map, since all it takes is some lings to get a surround and its GG because you just lost 8+ sentries and there was nothing you could do to protect them once the lings got up.
Personally, I think the duration needs to be shortened, maybe between 8-10 seconds. I just pulled that range out of my ass, and obviously the real number would be tested for, but I think 15 seconds is just way too long. It just seems like, once you get one FF down on a ramp, its insanely easy to keep it up since you have so long to remember to throw another one down. Maybe top players just make it look that easy, IDK, but I think a shorter duration would actually give room for the Toss to miss a FF long enough for you to capitalize.
Burrow is quite good against heavy forcefield usage, but its not quite as good as ppl seem to make it out to be. Just having burrow doesnt save you. You need burrow, and also an army as big, or bigger than the protoss army. So burrow doesnt really give you much of an advantage, it mostly just allows you to defend yourself with an equally strong army, without being screwed. And it doesnt last very long, once observers are out, burrow is once again pretty much nuliffied, and forcefields are once again really strong. only at that point, you arent faced with just forcefields and a gateway army, its forcefields and a protoss deathball
Dont get me wrong, burrow and enough roaches are really good at stopping a 6gate push. But it isnt really the same, as in, if zerg doesnt have burrow, or doesnt have enough roaches, he dies immediatly. If he does, well he can live to see the robo...
I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP.
Perhaps the Queen can morph into the massive type at Lair, that way there needs to be some investment in the tech tree just like getting overseers for detection and burrow.
Either that or give roaches tunneling claws once burrow is researched (with a nerf to how they heal while burrowed of course) because yes burrow is a way to negate force fields but it still doesn't actually help your army stuck in your main. Tunneling claws would allow your roaches at the top of your ramp to move down and support you. Terran can deal with ramp blocking with siege tanks superior range or thors. Toss doesn't need to worry about ramp blocking at all, they can warp units in to the low ground if a pylon reaches there. Zerg is really the only race that can't deal with FFs blocking the ramp as you need ultras to deal with that.
Or maybe builds will arise where you get two roach warrens, I dunno...
On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion
yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
If you're referring to the one game when MC tricked July on Metalopolis (Game 1 iirc) with the fake expansion so that July would have fewer units, then that was more of an attribute to MC's opening working out to his advantage. If July had more attacking units, then he could have stopped the attack.
So basically, don't be so greedy early on with droning up. And within three minutes or so after that, you can definitely have burrow. So yes. Seriously.
If you scout a 4gate, you can stop a 4gate. If you don't, it's pretty dicey. Same with two-port banshee. Same with DTs. Same with 2 rax all-ins. FFs don't need to be nerfed, Zerg players just need to make sure Toss can't waltz 12 sentries across the map without consequences, and can't drone up when there are warning signs of a 4gate incoming.
I think July's "new style" of ZvP involved fast hydras, but that played right into MC's hands with the early aggression and timing attacks. IMO July didn't get enough/react to scouting information and was too late on the burrow.
But as I said earlier, MC really didn't make any mistakes in his games (except misreading the drop potential in Game 3 + not protecting probe with the 6gate better in Game 5). July, in contrast, made quite a few errors. That was the difference, not FFs.
On March 20 2011 10:33 Snaphoo wrote: If you scout a 4gate, you can stop a 4gate. If you don't, it's pretty dicey. Same with two-port banshee. Same with DTs. Same with 2 rax all-ins. FFs don't need to be nerfed, Zerg players just need to make sure Toss can't waltz 12 sentries across the map without consequences, and can't drone up when there are warning signs of a 4gate incoming.
I think July's "new style" of ZvP involved fast hydras, but that played right into MC's hands with the early aggression and timing attacks. IMO July didn't get enough/react to scouting information and was too late on the burrow.
But as I said earlier, MC really didn't make any mistakes in his games (except misreading the drop potential in Game 3 + not protecting probe with the 6gate better in Game 5). July, in contrast, made quite a few errors. That was the difference, not FFs.
Unfortunately, zerg scouting is shit, so you have to make reads which is as you said, pretty dicey. And there isn't much zerg players can do about protosses waltzing across the map except counterattack the main with lings (which is beaten by a zealot or a pylon in the gap), you need to save your army till the last possible moment so that you have as strong a defense/ as possible.
If you invest completely in units just because you suspect a 4gate, you'll lose if the protoss doesn't expand - you need to get a good amount of drones before making your call, and if you see the protoss expanding that tells you you need to drone - making units will only hurt you. It's unfortunate that July lost the lings he was using to monitor MC's front, that was the only thing keeping him in the game, but it's really annoying when players talk about stopping 4gate so simply - it isn't simple in the slightest.
FF may need a shorter energy cost but they are from broken. In the last match of the finals for instance, julyzerg got destroyed because his hydras didnt have range, a hydra with range in terms of being able to attack is unaffected by FF due to the ranged units of protoss having to be in that range to attack, and we all know that hydras tear apart gateway units, this is why hydra ling is a normal counter to the 3 gate expand. MC even made note of this in his interview "july never made it necessary for me to make colossus", this is directly related to his lack of significant threat with his hydras mostly due to the lack of range. Also, burrow is another viable counter which july researched sometimes but never got to fully implement the strengths of it. A hard counter is of course, ultralisks.
Frankly, no matter what MC did, the community would of cried iMBA. If he chose colossus, it would of been the normal "colossus imba!", if he chose HT, it would of been "trololololol, you cant warp in storms soon nub" and obviously with sentry play "FF is imba!". Also with the whole "all he did was timing rush!, i want macro game rawr". If july had held the attacks the games would of swung to macro games, this could of been done by better scouting etc. It is no fault on MC to try and attack once he gets a certain advantage or feels he has a certain advantage. As zerg, July should know the possibilites of the Protoss timing rushes and prepare for them. Not saying he is a bad player but he was just outclassed.
So i agree FF may need a small tweak in terms of energy cost or something, so people complain less about them but otherwise, its not that broken. Especially not in TvT with mech becoming so popular.
EDIT: I am aware 4 gate rush can be a hassle but in the first game, it was the nexus fake that stuffed july up, not the FF or the 4 gate in general. He simply saw the expansion and felt he had the freedom to drone up a bit, yes the FF stopped roaches from getting down from the main but he had already lost it by that point despite how good he looked at holding it for some time.
On March 20 2011 10:23 emc wrote: I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP.
That could pose a problem against void rays rushes though. But your queen upgrade to massive idea could work if the upgrade also gave queens the speed they need off creep.
[spoiler]On March 20 2011 10:23 emc wrote: I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP.
That could pose a problem against void rays rushes though. But your queen upgrade to massive idea could work if the upgrade also gave queens the speed they need off creep.
That would be a huge issue, and massive fast queens off creep would be too good. Maybe give them another skill/passive that break force-fields. I think a passive might be a bit much as it would make force fields too weak offensively. An active skill requiring mana would be more interesting, but queens already have 3 active skills.
@MonsieurGrimm: I agree that Zerg scouting could use a boost; but again, suboptimal Zerg scouting doesn't prove that FFs should be nerfed.
In addition, I'm aware that if you overprepare for a 4gate you will lose-- similarly, many Toss lose to roach all-ins (see: scrap station) when they go for Forge FEs because if they lose their scouting probes, they have no idea how many cannons to put down. Too few, and you're dead. Too many, and your economy is so far behind you're in a bad spot. By the time observers and hallucination are out, it's probably too late. Bottom line, you have to do your best with imperfect early-game scouting. Protoss don't cry that their early-game detection is too weak; they simply accept that Forge expansions (like early droning) are a risk-reward game that requires careful scouting and a cat-and-mouse game.
JulyZerg did a bad job of scouting (didn't react strongly enough to the number of units he saw, the early stalker was a tip-off, didn't have a zergling parked by the edge of MC's base where pylons can warp in units onto the low ground, etc.). Also, MC manipulated him beautifully with the fake Nexus, as @refluX said.
If I recall, in GSL 3 JulyZerg built a Hatch, cancelled it, and built a baneling nest in its place on the creep against a Terran. Terran saw a morphing Z structure at the natural and assumed July was going for an expansion, probs. When JulyZerg showed up at his main a few minutes later with anincredibly fast baneling bust, Terran was totally owned. Baneling Bust OP? Hardly. Mindgames can give you a massive advantage by keeping an opponent unprepared; Z just have to be ready for it.
Anyways, in summary: I still don't see how FF is OP; I just see suboptimal scouting and decision-making by July, compared to flawless execution by MC.
Instead of putting the blame on force fields, I think a better change would actually to make warpgates increase their "cooldown" the farther away they warp units to. This would weaken the 4/6 gate pushes that are so dominant right now, making reinforcements from the protoss take longer to get there, as well as actually putting some thought in warpgates. As of right now, a proxy pylon is essentially the equivelent of proxying all your gateways at the same location, with a more "instant" production.
The warpgate mechanic would still have huge benefit, but now there would be more reason to strategically use warpgates (IE spreading them out over expos for shorter delay time when defending, while still being useful for crucial reinforcements at far-off places).
I like the idea of giving Queens a "dispel" skill. That could break force-fields. Since queens are so slow, it is unlikely to be used offensively. Make it like 75 energy so you will only have the ability to use it if you are saving energy.
i havent read though the all of the thread but watchin July losing to MC was painful and im a T player it was as u said pure carnage and there was nothing he couldve done better, i mean i give credit to MC for being great at using FF but in reality how hard can it be to split armies?
Forcefields really are not the issue because, as stated, protoss have to spend a massive amount of gas to reach those number of sentries. Other races could easily get as much, if not more gas before the protoss arrive at their base.
Forcefields should overwrite themselves such that there cannot be any overlap. Missing forcefields should punish the Protoss user a lot more, and if a misplaced forcefield can cause the first one to dissipate, a lot more precision will be needed in order to abuse this mechanic to the fullest.
Although this doesn't solve the issue of a skill-capped player using forcefields.
On March 20 2011 12:30 CocoA wrote: i havent read though the all of the thread but watchin July losing to MC was painful and im a T player it was as u said pure carnage and there was nothing he couldve done better, i mean i give credit to MC for being great at using FF but in reality how hard can it be to split armies?
He could have done a lot of things better. Before the game it was known July's zvp wasn't nearly as good as MC's PvAnything. He could have got hydra range for one. He played right into MC's games. July is a great player and I think in the next season or two, he will have GSL championship. This GSL he made mistakes throughout the whole tourney.
Dropping FF's is about as hard as doing a drop with marines. Just gotta know when to throw them down at the right time
On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion
yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
L2stop4gate?
Also having your army at your expansion rather then up on the cliff when you expand helps.... SERIOUSLY!!!! lol.
On March 20 2011 10:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So basically, don't be so greedy early on with droning up. And within three minutes or so after that, you can definitely have burrow. So yes. Seriously.
Droning up is the only way to keep up in economy with protoss taking his natural. And besides roach/speedling all-ins, getting an econ advantage is the only way to win the game as zerg.
Also another point about force field skill ceiling is that the player using the force fields will eventually learn to gauge the optimal range to place the force field (IE making it so stalkers and sentries can shoot while the trapped units cannot shoot out). As of right now, even MC screws this up occasionally. This may not be that punishing of a point, but it still would play as a factor in the using of the skill.
I found a very interesting video about Forcefields and the AI, you can check it out, i don't think it matters that much, but it's quite interesting how the AI reacts to the FF's How AI reacts to FF
On March 20 2011 12:52 blooddrunKK wrote: I found a very interesting video about Forcefields and the AI, you can check it out, i don't think it matters that much, but it's quite interesting how the AI reacts to the FF's How AI reacts to FF
It was neat, I wish he actually used the ling when he used 4 ff's instead of telling me that it wouldn't work. It means I have to try it right now lol.
It was neat, I wish he actually used the ling when he used 4 ff's instead of telling me that it wouldn't work. It means I have to try it right now lol.
I thought that the forcefield between the gateways would demonstrate enough that the AI ignores the forcefields, thats why I didnt include it.
Also another point about force field skill ceiling is that the player using the force fields will eventually learn to gauge the optimal range to place the force field (IE making it so stalkers and sentries can shoot while the trapped units cannot shoot out). As of right now, even MC screws this up occasionally
Aye, the skill ceiling with forcefields is super high. Thats the reason people QQ really. Stuff like that, where you need good micro is most of the time not immediatly obvious. For example, in SC 1, no one thought reavers were OP. But the skill ceiling was high, and thus when someone found a way to abuse them, and had the micro to do it, and thus had shuttles shooting scarabs, well thats only when it became aparent.
Likewise, forcefields seem pretty balanced on paper, or when used by a silver player, in fact, they seem rather weak when looking at that. But when used perfectly, they will look even more OP than they did when MC was using them.
Its the same with mostly anything that has a high skill ceiling really. When people start using it, well usually its going to seem decent. And then when players start unlocking some of the hidden potential, getting closer to the ceiling, thats when you start to see what the spell/unit/ability/race is really capable of. Which is often very very scary when something has a high skill ceiling.
It was neat, I wish he actually used the ling when he used 4 ff's instead of telling me that it wouldn't work. It means I have to try it right now lol.
I thought that the forcefield between the gateways would demonstrate enough that the AI ignores the forcefields, thats why I didnt include it.
Also another point about force field skill ceiling is that the player using the force fields will eventually learn to gauge the optimal range to place the force field (IE making it so stalkers and sentries can shoot while the trapped units cannot shoot out). As of right now, even MC screws this up occasionally
Aye, the skill ceiling with forcefields is super high. Thats the reason people QQ really. Stuff like that, where you need good micro is most of the time not immediatly obvious. For example, in SC 1, no one thought reavers were OP. But the skill ceiling was high, and thus when someone found a way to abuse them, and had the micro to do it, and thus had shuttles shooting scarabs, well thats only when it became aparent.
Likewise, forcefields seem pretty balanced on paper, or when used by a silver player, in fact, they seem rather weak when looking at that. But when used perfectly, they will look even more OP than they did when MC was using them.
Its the same with mostly anything that has a high skill ceiling really. When people start using it, well usually its going to seem decent. And then when players start unlocking some of the hidden potential, getting closer to the ceiling, thats when you start to see what the spell/unit/ability/race is really capable of. Which is often very very scary when something has a high skill ceiling.
Ya it does actually... but there is always that voice in the back of your head that nags and nags. It told me I should check it out for myself since it wasn't shown in the video. Sorry if I was rude or oblivious, It's just one of those things.
As long as people are giving game change suggestions that will never happen, here are mine:
1.) Give the Queen the "Hulk Out" ability, which causes it to become massive for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown). For balance purposes, could introduce the cost being something like 50 HP on top of the cooldown.
2.) Make changelings break force fields. This is the two birds, one stone fix. It would be the easyest to impliment (making them massive type) and it requires hive tech + at least one over seer. It also puts micro back into the FF engagement and gives more game time to Overseers.
I like number 2 the most as Overseers are generally unused in ZvP except for a tech scout in early mid game and for detection of DT and late game motherships. And, it won't be an unfair ability as the changeling can be sniped before it hits a FF or stormed (unless it was dropped on to one, but the Overseer can be sniped and/or Feedback.
This change would have no affect on ZvT, ZvZ, or PvT so I think, if blizzard wanted to address PvZ FFs, then they should do something that only affects ZvP.
On March 20 2011 12:15 Snaphoo wrote: @MonsieurGrimm: I agree that Zerg scouting could use a boost; but again, suboptimal Zerg scouting doesn't prove that FFs should be nerfed.
In addition, I'm aware that if you overprepare for a 4gate you will lose-- similarly, many Toss lose to roach all-ins (see: scrap station) when they go for Forge FEs because if they lose their scouting probes, they have no idea how many cannons to put down. Too few, and you're dead. Too many, and your economy is so far behind you're in a bad spot. By the time observers and hallucination are out, it's probably too late. Bottom line, you have to do your best with imperfect early-game scouting. Protoss don't cry that their early-game detection is too weak; they simply accept that Forge expansions (like early droning) are a risk-reward game that requires careful scouting and a cat-and-mouse game.
JulyZerg did a bad job of scouting (didn't react strongly enough to the number of units he saw, the early stalker was a tip-off, didn't have a zergling parked by the edge of MC's base where pylons can warp in units onto the low ground, etc.). Also, MC manipulated him beautifully with the fake Nexus, as @refluX said.
If I recall, in GSL 3 JulyZerg built a Hatch, cancelled it, and built a baneling nest in its place on the creep against a Terran. Terran saw a morphing Z structure at the natural and assumed July was going for an expansion, probs. When JulyZerg showed up at his main a few minutes later with anincredibly fast baneling bust, Terran was totally owned. Baneling Bust OP? Hardly. Mindgames can give you a massive advantage by keeping an opponent unprepared; Z just have to be ready for it.
The best solution I can come up with is that forcefields should deteriorate faster when placed on creep, as I posted earlier in the thread. Anyways, in summary: I still don't see how FF is OP; I just see suboptimal scouting and decision-making by July, compared to flawless execution by MC.
And I agree with the majority of your post; I don't think that Forge FE is a good example, because it's almost economy cheese - you get a massive econ advantage but you can't defend against hydra drops (see game 3 of gsl finals) - without overspending on defenses. In any case, I don't think forcefields in general are overpowered at all, the only thing overpowered I see about it is the blocking off the main-natural ramp to cut the zerg army in half and hugely hinder the zerg's defense against early attacks. I also agree that July's scouting was what killed him, or more to the point he let the 3-4 zerglings he had scouting the protoss front die, which meant he was unable to see the cancel.
On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion
yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
L2stop4gate?
Also having your army at your expansion rather then up on the cliff when you expand helps.... SERIOUSLY!!!! lol.
Please have some inkling of what you're talking about before you post next time.
Any half decent zerg will rally his army to the low ground - the issue is that you build up your army while taking hits from the protoss army before you engage, and that doesn't work when half your army is stuck indefinitely.
Queens having a passive ability to break forcefields on entry would fix 4gate rushes, but it won't make a difference when you have to fight away from your creep.
On March 20 2011 15:06 Sensator wrote: Queens having a passive ability to break forcefields on entry would fix 4gate rushes, but it won't make a difference when you have to fight away from your creep.
Forced to creep more, and bring slower Queen. Maybe buff Queen speed by 0.1 or something.
I didn't think people would take my suggestion on IRC seriously about Queens. It just seems like too easy of a fix.
The problem is how Terran will deal with Force Fields as well, and Protoss as well.
I as Protoss agree that FFs are very very strong, maybe too much. They however require some skill. Problem is, that if you remove them, Protoss doesnt stand a chance against Terrans. Protoss win and die with forcefields, if you know what I mean
Nobody thinks Force Field should be removed. This is a straw man. The question is - Does FF pose too much of an advantage? And if so, how do you alter it such that it retains its usefulness yet maintains balance.
On March 20 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote: This would break all protoss vs x matchups, unfortunately.
Protoss vs protoss would degenerate back into 4gate vs 4gate, right when we're starting to see it crawl out of that.
Protoss vs terran, protoss early defense often depends on forcefielding the ramp
Protoss vs zerg, baneling busts would become unstoppable.
It would mean that you would have to cast 2 force fields, and wouldn't be able to do indefinite loops of chain blockage (offensive or defensive). It would become similar to the effect of forcing a terran to stim through mutalisk harassment, except you're forcing the sentries to use energy that won't be available for a future open field battle.
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Really? you never heard mention of Toss late game being a tad strong? ForceField needs to be nurfed. I like giving them hitpoints, say 150 - 200. But there are many possible solutions
I'm sorry for this nooby question but how do you cast multiple ff's fast? Whenever I shift + f my sentries will do the first order first (usually attack move) before putting the force fields down. I end up having to go f-click, f-click repeatedly and sometimes I misclick and have to reselect the sentries. Any help?
I just had an idea. What if forcefields have half duration on creep? Won't affect pvt and makes clearing creep more important for protoss and spreading creep more important for zerg
Personally, I think force fields are completly fine as is. There's no reason to change them imo. People are just over analyzing a good player beating another good player.
Nobody thinks Force Field should be removed. This is a straw man. The question is - Does FF pose too much of an advantage? And if so, how do you alter it such that it retains its usefulness yet maintains balance.
Exactly. It also comes with a huge list of other questions as well. I'm really interested in how new abilities change the way that RTS games normally work and the intended and unintended consequences of introducing them to the game. If there are balance problems, they never simply involve one unit or ability, it's a holistic thing and it relates to how the game works, not mechanically, but strategically. This wasn't supposed to be a balance thread. I've wanted to work on this for a long time. Watching the Finals just reminded me of all the questions I've had relating to how forcefields effect the basic nature of the game. An example; if SC2 were more heavily geared toward air based gameplay, but there were a number of ground based strategies that were risky but highly effective (basically the opposite of how things are), sentries and forcefield use would take on a whole new meaning. They would be similar to how detection and static anti-air defenses currently work. What I think is interesting and a little troubling is that forcefields can do the same thing, but against ground units in a game completely based around the economy, military, and technology strategy of building a ground army.
On March 19 2011 22:09 mathemagician1986 wrote: burrow at hatchery tech is a terrible idea. Picture ZvZ: I get 4 banelings in his mineral line. He runs his drones away, I burrow and he cannot mine again for ages! GG right there.
I think if Queens had the ability to destroy forcefields ZvP would become much more interesting. There no offensive use for this that I can think of, but Z could deny constant ramp blocks and even start sacrificing queens in order to get into good army positions. Losing queens carelessly will still punish the zerg though, because his production after will be reduced. I think it would be great, it encourages micro and doesn't seem to hard on P, while leaving TvP totally untouched.
Easy solution to that. Give detection back to overlords.
I still don't understand why zerg is the only race that got their detection nerfed and cost more gas compared to BW.
Half duration on creep or making them targetable and with a certain amount of hitpoints would stop them blocking game changing numbers of reinforcements for ever... about the only things I could think of. Making them targetable with hit points means folks have to micro what they target, which is a good thing. Also easier to balance as just alter their hitpoints...also means Terran v Protoss is not too broken, if you went for a very greedy build and they have the units to break through your FFs AND your army, you had it coming. This also allows Bliz to alter the damage dealt to FFs by each unit type, meaning some units are better vs FFs than others.
On March 20 2011 15:53 Clare wrote: I'm sorry for this nooby question but how do you cast multiple ff's fast? Whenever I shift + f my sentries will do the first order first (usually attack move) before putting the force fields down. I end up having to go f-click, f-click repeatedly and sometimes I misclick and have to reselect the sentries. Any help?
On March 20 2011 09:32 pwnasaurus wrote: Honestly, I've said 5 times already, and I have to say it again, because it does not seem to be getting through.
thread:
July did not research burrow early enough - he got a hydra den instead then didn't build hydras
/thread
No one wants to listen to your lowly masters strategy, there are agendas here. Anything to cripple another race is fair game and counters need not apply.
I think an interesting change would be to decrease the range at which a sentry can cast a FF. That way the defensive mechanic would remain greatly unchanged. However the biggest problem, forcefeilding the ENEMY ramp to stop reinforcements, would be jeopordized because you would have to move your sentry within range of the units you are FF off.
Jesus; the OP brings "a wall of text" to a new meaning haha - there is this thing called the enter key and some BBcode wouldn't hurt
It's good to see someone put some thought into a thread about forcefields so thank you for that. The beautiful thing about this force field debate is that it has only surfaced now, almost a year after the release of the game! This just shows that so many abilities and strategies in the game are yet to be completely understood; the only thing that makes the forcefield such a contentious issue is the ability that MC has to make them so effective..
Games should always be designed for the highest level in my opinion; and when the highest level can execute forcefields in that manner then i believe some tweaking needs to be made. I do not believe that forcefield needs to be removed, or the fact that sentries can insta-cast on warp ins is really not an issue (if that was changed then early rushes would just destroy a Protoss.) If Blizzard when the way of the Khaydarin Amulet then there would be a massive problem as forcefields are just such an interesting part of the game..
Noone can possibly say that July responding correctly; he could have researched burrow earlier - a key strategy against a Protoss not opening robo, he also made a hydra den and then forgot to produce hydras or get the range upgrade; This is where my issue lies - MC made the forcefield look so good, but in the end - so did July. He really wasn't able to respond correctly, even engaging off creep into a choke at times..
For me, the time that a FF lasts - i think it is 15secs - can be tweaked, it would make baiting forcefields so much more of a meaningful strategy.. Another option is tweaking the energy regen rate of the forcefield.. There is just so much to be explored with the forcefield at high level play before any major decisions can be made;
I'd personally love to see this strategy verse Nestea or Losira
There is a great fix for forcefields, and it has nothing to do with the sentry "OMG! NO WAY! WHAT!" yes there is. The solution is provide zerg with a defenders advantage. Why not use what blizzard gave to the zerg and has made leaps and bounds to make it an essencial piece of the zerg base.
Creep.
Make it so that all zerg units can move while burrowed ONLY when on creep. I am confident enough to say this will "fix" zerg
On March 20 2011 09:32 pwnasaurus wrote: Honestly, I've said 5 times already, and I have to say it again, because it does not seem to be getting through.
thread:
July did not research burrow early enough - he got a hydra den instead then didn't build hydras
/thread
No one wants to listen to your lowly masters strategy, there are agendas here . Anything to cripple another race is fair game and counters need not apply.
Indeed.
I have no idea what exactly people are trying to achieve here, this thread is about as equivalent in quality of a battle.net thread--there is no discussion, people have already come to the decision that it is "broken" and needs changing.
People have seemed to become empowered by the July vs MC thread and have taken it upon themselves to suggest changes that "need" to happen. The only pro that has posted here is Zelniq who has taken a completely level headed approach and telling people that July didn't lose because of force fields but rather poor decision making, yet still people seemed to be caught up with how force field effected the July vs MC match up.
Look at what people have been suggesting, make force field channeling, make overlapping force fields cancel each other out, make it so only one force field can be applied per sentry, making Queens massive... Does anyone in their right mind actually think that Blizzard will ever go through with changes like these?
I mean, if you are that compelled on getting it changed then why post here? There is a suggestions forum in the battle.net forum that community managers check and relay information back to developers, you will honestly make more of a difference there than complaining about abilities here... I'm surprised that threads like these are even allowed to exist on TL
I have no idea what exactly people are trying to achieve here, this thread is about as equivalent in quality of a battle.net thread--there is no discussion, people have already come to the decision that it is "broken" and needs changing.
People have seemed to become empowered by the July vs MC thread and have taken it upon themselves to suggest changes that "need" to happen. The only pro that has posted here is Zelniq who has taken a completely level headed approach and telling people that July didn't lose because of force fields but rather poor decision making, yet still people seemed to be caught up with how force field effected the July vs MC match up.
Look at what people have been suggesting, make force field channeling, make overlapping force fields cancel each other out, make it so only one force field can be applied per sentry, making Queens massive... Does anyone in their right mind actually think that Blizzard will ever go through with changes like these?
I mean, if you are that compelled on getting it changed then why post here? There is a suggestions forum in the battle.net forum that community managers check and relay information back to developers, you will honestly make more of a difference there than complaining about abilities here... I'm surprised that threads like these are even allowed to exist on TL
Yeah, I didn't really want this to be that kind of thread (believe it or not). I've just been thinking about how things like forcefield change the nature of the game for a long time and when everyone got riled up about it, I thought it would be a good time to initiate a discussion. It didn't really turn into much of one, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. Clearly you took the time to read a good amount of it. Some of the ideas people are throwing around are rather silly, but they're not hurting anything. I just wish people would take some time to talk about how their changes would affect the basic elements of strategic play. Not for the purpose of accomplishing anything, but because I, and hopefully other people, find it interesting.
Any decent toss can 4gate and forcefield the zergs ramp which is insta-win unless zerg has perfect scouting and reacts accordingly. Its so damn easy to make it work compared to how hard it is to stop.
I am all for forcefields being used to split up an army or prevent a fast rush. The only thing I dislike about forcefields is how easy it is to put it on the ramp and end the game right there.
I did a write up of the finals here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203120 as I assume that the finals is where this sort of thing came from. More games need to be seen of mass forcefield before it can really be concluded imbalanced. MC is the first protoss to really have stellar control with them and I haven't seen enough games of him to really conclude either way.
On March 20 2011 23:16 MadCatZ wrote: I will end this thread right here Forcefields are not imbalanced but Forcefields are not balanced enough yet /thread
Oh no they're broken as hell, I just watched MC not just beat, but smash his way though the best Zerg in the world only because of FF. I understand MC is unbelievably good, but almost any protoss player at a Diamond/Masters level who can mimic even half of what MC does can just decimate their opponent.
On March 20 2011 23:16 MadCatZ wrote: I will end this thread right here Forcefields are not imbalanced but Forcefields are not balanced enough yet /thread
Oh no they're broken as hell, I just watched MC not just beat, but smash his way though the best Zerg in the world only because of FF. I understand MC is unbelievably good, but almost any protoss player at a Diamond/Masters level who can mimic even half of what MC does can just decimate their opponent.
Oh please, July is nowhere near the best zerg in the world. He only made the finals because of the easy brackets he had given to him after the entry round, and some very lucky wins vs. IMMvP. He made various HUGE mistakes in these games, and his opponent was too good to not heavily punish him for them.
Just want to see exactly who believes what based on league. I wish for people not only to vote on this(honestly, I might add), but quote it so it can get as many quotes as possible.
Notes: -1 for all yes's, someone yes'd for all of them. High Masters-(Top 500) + Show Spoiler +
I am personally of the opinion that forcefields are balanced, its just that MC dominated July so heavily that it made it look imbalanced. I am also somewhat shocked at the blatant disregard of what Pwnasaurus said, which is pretty true. By getting hydra den and not getting roach burrow/hydras, July left himself open to a sentry-gateway centric timing push. You NEED hydras/range or burrow in order to deal with that 6 gate push. And since July got neither, he lost. Plain and simple.
Ladies, its so simple . FF don't need to much of a change. That would screw TvP and PvP balance too much.
Only zerg needs some protection here. I'd suggest FF can no longer be cast on creep. This will effectively remove blocking the zerg ramp but still enable protoss to defend their own main and expo.
I mentioned this in IRC and got howled at, but one idea I had was to reduce the duration of forcefields by half (wait for it). HOWEVER, this would screw up protoss massively when defending early rushes. So why not have forcefields last twice as long (the same duration as they are currently) if they are cast within the power field of a pylon/warp prism.
Make FF only usable within pylon psi radius. This would enable Protoss to use it blocking ramp, but not to steamroll T/Z army regardless of where the fight happens.
Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines.
In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons. It would give opponents more time to prepare for it.
On March 21 2011 00:47 nukkuj wrote: Make FF only usable within pylon psi radius. This would enable Protoss to use it blocking ramp, but not to steamroll T/Z army regardless of where the fight happens.
Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines.
In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons. It would give opponents more time to prepare for it.
That seems like a good idea, but I think it would completely undermine the sentry to a unit that will never be used.
I think it would be a good idea to add a cooldown to the FF so that toss players cant get like 5 sentries early game, then pool like 150 energy on each of them. That way they cant instantaneously cast 15 FFs under that circumstance and cut the opponent's army in half
On March 21 2011 00:47 nukkuj wrote: Make FF only usable within pylon psi radius. This would enable Protoss to use it blocking ramp, but not to steamroll T/Z army regardless of where the fight happens.
Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines.
In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons. It would give opponents more time to prepare for it.
Way to completely DESTROY a unit. If you want Sentries to never be used, full-stop, then yeah. Sure.
PvT early game: Sentries are vital to block ramp etc. If you make FF only useable in pylon radius then Protoss needs a Pylon right next to the ramp, easily snipeable and completely pointless. PvT early game is hard enough for P as it is.
Late game anything: Sentries would never be used. They would become redundant as soon as any engagements could be forced outside of P's base or near a proxy pylon.
How would you feel if FG was only useable on Creep, or Stim was only useable in your base? What a game-killing thought.
Nukkuj, I highly doubt you play Protoss, or not at a high level if you do. This idea is one of the typical ones that gives the community as a source of balance ideas a bad name.
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Forcefields should be target-able and attack-able like PDD. That was they delay, but don't shut down. The immobility of everyone but Protoss' massive units means that breaking them with massive is not very viable.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
they're probably not imbalanced, but they're terribly boring. more gateway buffs and less FFs.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
they're probably not imbalanced, but they're terribly boring. more gateway buffs and less FFs.
Reading treads and comments like these are just completely enraging. If you buff gateway units you buff 4gate timing pushes. Compare the amount of whine against forcefields and 4gates.
Most people aren't even thinking when they talk about balance. Can we have a discussion instead of mindless raging of forcefields?
I think the biggest problem with forcefields is not the actual strength of it. How overpowered it or isnt is up to debate but what really frustrates me is how it takes away an oponents ability to influence the result of a battle. With the tech available to terran and zerg in the early/mid game you have litteraly zero control of determining the outcome of a battle against a dozen sentries with plenty of energy. Once the battle is on it is entirely up to the protoss ability to use forcefields and that is extremely frustrating to 1. play against and 2. to watch on a pro level how the very best protoss in the world can dismantle any player without them being able to influence the outcome. Watching MC destroy his oponents is really cool but when you get the feeling that he became so good that no matter how good the zerg and terran player is, they simply reached the cap on how they can fare against his forcefields.
This may look somewhat bad now but I think it will be far worse in the future as the best protoss players are getting better and better. Being able to dictate the game like that is, regardless of actual strength, one of the biggest advantages you can achieve in the game.
If we are to look to change I think we need to look at what we can do to make the oponent influence the outcome more; how can we force mechanincs upon the oponent so that the forcefields become an advantage if done well but an advantage that can be negated if the oponent is doing even better?
The first thing that comes to mind is we could give forcefields hitpoints. If a forcefield is in the way you can shoot it down. In the heat of battle the new function of a forcefield would be to gain a temporary wall and to redirect incomming damage from your units to your forcefields. Being able to swiftly replace destroyed forcefields will make your forcefield wall as strong and functional as it is currently but is going to require better micro and reactions. The oponent can then actively influence the outcome of the battle by fast sniping key forcefields in the wall.
Another idea that pops up is to make forcefields a channeled spell, making the sentries unable to shoot or move while casting. If it does so or is destroyed the forcefield is instantly removed. This makes positioning of the sentries before battle a lot more significant and sniping sentries durring battle a lot more rewarding.
Either way I think we need to focus on solution where the players has a larger influence on battle; the current funtionality of forcefields, a-moving armies, the AI and so on are, balanced or not, not particularly fun to watch and as soon as you get anywhere near pro level not very fun to play.
forcefields are imbalanced because they single handedly render entire armies worthless, if a protoss has good forcefields he can good an excellent position for himself if he gets caught out in the open, he can make zerglings/banelings worthless( minigun vs Idra), he can forcefield away entire flanks.
I dont think forcefield would be as bad if units went around them on their own, people might think well just micro, yeah, you try it, see how it works they just put another forcefield down in the spot you tried to go around and you have to do it all over again.
This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
they're probably not imbalanced, but they're terribly boring. more gateway buffs and less FFs.
Reading treads and comments like these are just completely enraging. If you buff gateway units you buff 4gate timing pushes. Compare the amount of whine against forcefields and 4gates.
Most people aren't even thinking when they talk about balance. Can we have a discussion instead of mindless raging of forcefields?
if u dont want to buff gateway units and keep the FF status as it is now, u should give T and Z a real way to deal to forcefields. massive units come in the game too late compared to a T1,5 sentry. ghost are useful but when i have ghosts on the field i would give emp-priority to Templars instead of sentrys, and as a Z, dunno burrowed roaches are good but this thech is very slow to reach, maybe Blizzard should remove Tunneling Claws and give the possibility for burrowed roach to move when the Burrow research is complete.
see the video posted above. i dont like this style of playing. minigun is a great player but the state of the game force him to shutdown the baneling attack that's comin by completely sourrounding himself. is this the game we, as players and spectators, enjoy?
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
Can anyone confirm or deny something? When I see mass forcefields in games like the GSL finals, sometimes it seems like units get stuck and don't do anything. They don't move or even attack. They just sit there and twitch. Does this really happen or is it all in my head? If it does happen, I think that should be remedied; it's one thing for forcefields to block terrain, but it's another thing for them to prevent units from attacking targets within range.
That was actually a really smart move, considering the fact that IdrA had him surrounded anyway. iNcontroL likes to wrap himself in FFs sometimes too as a defensive maneuver.
The problem is the amount of forcefields toss can make. There should be a limit of 1 FF per sentry maximum - that way protoss players will need to actually think where to put forcefields and not spam them all over the place.
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear.
Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong.
On March 21 2011 02:30 Alpina wrote: The problem is the amount of forcefields toss can make. There should be a limit of 1 FF per sentry maximum - that way protoss players will need to actually think where to put forcefields and not spam them all over the place.
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear.
Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong.
i dont think 1 FF could be right maybe 2 or 3, because a zerg can just attack 1 time let the toss use his FF and then the toss need to back off because no way a toss can survive w/o FF
no i do not, i play Potoss. Maybe you can give me some insight into why i may be wrong instead of saying lol.
Sorry, did not mean any disrespect, but its because your reply seemed redundant in the thread as it is about forcefield taking away the micro aspect of the game and not July vs MC. I play random and am an MC fan too but July did not in anyway play poorly. He basically ran out of options.
Alot of players in TL.net say July could have gotten burrow. But they fail to realise that burrow is too gimmicky and is not a solid playstyle against a protoss of MC's calibre. Burrow is infact useless as if u burrow the front units upon forcefield, MC could have just targeted down July's hatchery. Furthermore, burrowing your units reduces your effective DPS as it essentially halfs your army. Unless July's roach army was significantly bigger than MC's, it wont work out. Not without tunneling claws.
Besides its not like July knows what MC is doing. The early scouting ability of the Zerg is destroyed by wall-ins, forcefields and stalkers guarding the edges. July has no idea what MC is doing and in such a situation going for burrow is suicide, because, if its void ray, you lose. If its 3 gate expand macro, you lose on economy. So in all cases the idea of a Zerg blindly going for burrow is not plausible, unless you are rushing the protoss with a burrow all-in.
Last, Many zergs are forced to delay lair due to 4 gate assumption. Zergs are not able to scout effectively unless your lings get into his base or you sac an overlord which puts you at risk of supply block and 2 drones less for a chance at scouting. They basically have to assume 4 gate and move on from there. Based on this, July cannot get burrow upgraded by the time a fully committed early 6 gate strikes anyway. Hydras on the other hand are faster to get out, and are effective against air play if MC decides to go for, which July does not know. So i hope I have changed your perspective of the situation. Zergs are running out of options and what you have seen in the finals is not MC far outplaying July but rather MC being a genius at abusing the racial traits of PvZ.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
anything that would make forcefields breakable by small units will negate their purpose... also research is bad thing unsless the time is like 30 seconds...
On March 21 2011 02:30 Alpina wrote: The problem is the amount of forcefields toss can make. There should be a limit of 1 FF per sentry maximum - that way protoss players will need to actually think where to put forcefields and not spam them all over the place.
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear.
Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong.
i dont think 1 FF could be right maybe 2 or 3, because a zerg can just attack 1 time let the toss use his FF and then the toss need to back off because no way a toss can survive w/o FF
Let's say you have 5 sentries with 150 energy each. You can cast only 5 FFs so you must be very precise, then after your FFs disappear you can cast 5 again. This change won't change how toss defends his ramp and it will promote thinking before casting FF.
On March 21 2011 02:49 w0chtulka. wrote: anything that would make forcefields breakable by small units will negate their purpose... also research is bad thing unsless the time is like 30 seconds...
Not if they have a proper amount of health. Especially if there was an upgrade available later on that made them unbreakable. This way early game they are still strong but CAN be broken, and late game when the DPS is much higher they will still be useful.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them.
That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them.
That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
Precisely, MC did not OUTSKILL July in anyway that July deserved to be manhandled like a bronze player against a high masters. I really admire MC's skill but this fanboyism is getting out of hand.
MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes.
To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
On March 21 2011 03:19 pezit wrote: MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
MC may be the only one who can pull it off now, but the skill level of SC2 will be ever increasing. In a year, there will be players who are better than MC now. The issue is, if all protoss players are to get better, eventually FF abuse will overpower Zergs.
The game should be balanced at the highest levels and not at all levels because its basically impossible. Everyone wants to play like their favourite progamer and if one race gets manhandled like that, how would the lower level players feel? Even If your opponents or you cannot pull off superb forcefields, does not mean FF isn't a little too good.
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them.
That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
And what are you talking about? His builds were not standard by any means, he had different timings than pretty much any protoss i've ever seen earlier including himself. I do believe i have Artosis on my side here cause i remember him mentioning it several times during the game. July said "i lost to the builds i have been practicing the most against", wanna know why? because while the builds were similar to normal 6 gates etc. his timings were different, and then add to that his great control and it'll make someone look terrible even if they're not.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes.
To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes.
To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series
At the same time, MC doesn't know what July is doing (assuming decent scout denial by slings and queens). MC decided to get aggressive. He could have been passive and powered up. July decided to be passive and powered up. He could have made a lot more units. It goes both ways. July lost because he didn't have anything to stop the rush.
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass.
IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore.
The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage.
As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals.
Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes.
To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series
At the same time, MC doesn't know what July is doing (assuming decent scout denial by slings and queens). MC decided to get aggressive. He could have been passive and powered up. July decided to be passive and powered up. He could have made a lot more units. It goes both ways. July lost because he didn't have anything to stop the rush.
Like I said, MC was controlling the game. FF negates what July had early game. Did u know in game 1 July had more units out than MC and even had 2 spines up in the first battle and yet got rolfstomped before the sentries died? Please, I know u want to discredit July, but really, if you were in his situation and was playing blind against a protoss you would reconsider your opinions. The fact is , protoss is controlling the metagame and zerg is too reactionary to not have scouting options. If both players play blind, zerg is definitely the one at a disadvantage.
On March 21 2011 03:31 freetgy wrote: TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker
that's a terrible example. Ciara is no where near July's skill lol.
well MC didn't even lose a single unit, that was the point, while people here QQ about forcefields, he showed if Zerg doesn't prepare, they are going to die without Forcefields too. thus proving it isn't FF that is the problem to begin with but the timing of building units and amount defending the base.
On March 21 2011 03:31 freetgy wrote: TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker
that's a terrible example. Ciara is no where near July's skill lol.
well MC didn't even lose a single unit, that was the point, while people here QQ about forcefields, he showed if Zerg doesn't prepare, they are going to dieeven without Forcefields thus proving it isn't FF that is the problem to begin with but the timing of building units and amount defending the base.
lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone
burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields)
mutalisks, the counter to forcefields? lol If you try to make mutalisks to help against the forcefields in a 4 or 6gate timing push, you lose so hard you get demoted back to bronze.
The general consensus seems to be that its way too good in the hands of a very high-level Protoss against Zerg, but its essentially a must for ANY Protoss against the marine bioball.
I wouldnt touch FF too much, maybe make it a bit shorter in duration, but Zerg def. needs to find a way to cope, or else some counter-mechanic needs to be added.
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Yes, listen to this. If you feel you must suggest a change, take into account how that change affects every element of every matchup at every stage of the game. How does it affect the Ps ability to safely expand? How does it help P to tech safely? Does it allow P to tech or expand to safely? How will your change make the game more fair? How does it affect the opponent on the battlefield, etc. Changing forcefields is never going to "fix" Zerg, so stop trying to make this thread about that.
On March 21 2011 03:49 StateOfZerg wrote: lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone
well call it a scouting issue makes alot more sense then calling FF imba. and that is also the point, Protoss does have even less scouting information unless observers are out, which comes way later.
i as protoss would like to chronoboost always Nexus, but i can't cause i "would" die to aggressiv openings. See how the possibility of aggression effects protoss gameplay?
Maybe Zerg needs to make sure not to die early on? they can drone like hard when they have the necessary information.
In my opinion FF's should have a small (1 sec?) casting time. They should probably have an animation before they're placed, so that the opponent can react to them in advance.
That way placing them would require more skill and a skilled opponent would be able to counter them by fast micro.
On March 21 2011 03:49 StateOfZerg wrote: lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone
well call it a scouting issue makes alot more sense then calling FF imba. and that is also the point, Protoss does have even less scouting information unless observers are out, which comes way later.
i as protoss would like to chronoboost always Nexus, but i can't cause i "would" die to aggressiv openings. See how the possibility of aggression effects protoss gameplay?
Maybe Zerg needs to make sure not to die early on? they can drone like hard when they have the necessary information.
I said in my earlier post and I say it again. In PvZ, Protoss is the one dictating the game and Zerg is too much of a reactionary race. With both players being blind, Protoss is still at the advantage because the burden is on the Zerg player to find out what the protoss is doing and counter it. Saying Protoss has no early scout doesn't really prove anything.
And yes Zerg can make units to prevent dying early on. But if a protoss decides to turtle from the start with FF, Zerg just lost the game. Besides the only aggressive options of early aggression from the Zerg is a 6 pool or roach all-in, which is no-where close in effectiveness to a 4 gate. Especially with wall-in and FF protection preventing it.
On March 21 2011 03:19 pezit wrote: MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
When you have 10-15 sentries, you can place a lot of bad forcefields and it's fine. If you watch it again, a lot of those forcefields werent even needed and there were some that were overlapping by 75% of it. I don't believe MC is the only one that can pull forcefields off, I think protoss is actually dependent on a protoss being able to forcefield. Incontrol does very good forcefields and his apm is in the 80-120 range.
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them.
That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
And what are you talking about? His builds were not standard by any means, he had different timings than pretty much any protoss i've ever seen earlier including himself. I do believe i have Artosis on my side here cause i remember him mentioning it several times during the game. July said "i lost to the builds i have been practicing the most against", wanna know why? because while the builds were similar to normal 6 gates etc. his timings were different, and then add to that his great control and it'll make someone look terrible even if they're not.
I didn't say they were standard. I said it was not new for protosses to get a lot of sentries. There's really nothing else to talk about now since rest of your statement is base on something I didn't say.
1) Protoss Gateway units are underpowered in the early game 2) Forcefields can block ramps 3) Without forcefield, PvT is literally impossible to win 4) Zerg has a very tough time against forcefields, since they don't have space controlling units like Lurkers
Solution: Buff Zerg. Give them Hydra and/or Burrow at Tier 1 (Hydra range at Lair tech). Also give Zerg a cliff climbing unit. They are the "Swarm" after all.
FF needs to stay in the game. It is fun to watch and allows creativity in micro.
It is probably too strong against zerg right now (terran can counter with EMP) but there are many ways to fix it like lowering duration, giving them hitpoints so they can be killed, increasing mana cost or instituting a cooldown.
protoss needs it for support of the gateway units. Last time i checked, speed roaches and mass lings can rape pure gateway. Stimmed marauders/marines can rape pure gateway. sentries are an already expensive unit for the amount of damage and health it has. sentries are perfectly fine, everyone is crying OP about it now because people need to find things that are broken (even if its not even broken).
Ok, to all people suggesting that you add health to forcefields - this is the sole reason it won't work.
Which army does more dps - a stimmed MM ball or a roach/zergling composition?
If you give forcefields a small enough set of health that roach/zergling can break them quickly, then MM can break them even faster, making defending as Protoss against Terran impossible (especially bio all-in plays).
If you give them enough health that MM can't break them quickly, then Zerg will be unable to break them in time for it to make a difference.
To people suggesting that you make 2 forcefields block a ramp. It won't work because it requires a very large amount of sentries to survive the all-in plays. Again, a 3-rax all-in from Terran needs to be split on the ramp to have a chance at fighting it efficiently. 2 Forcefields would work for doing this, but my army would be considerably weaker early game from all the gas I'm spending on sentries. They do really awful DPS for their gas cost. I'd need probably 1.5 to 2 times the number of sentries if it required 2 forcefields to block a ramp.
To people suggesting that forcefield cannot be used to split armies. This could work, but it puts a really harsh forcefield punishment on Protoss. As I'm certain you know, speedlings move really fast. If you put one on the ramp, you can roach rush 100% safely, as I can no longer split your army to kill it more efficiently. I could block it, but it takes such a high amount of reaction time that only progamers and people in the absolute highest tiers of masters could hold off all-in plays. And even that wouldn't be a good chance, as the time it takes to react to a single speedling getting on your ramp is almost the time it takes for said speedling to get on your ramp. That would probably turn people away from the Protoss race in general, which is bad for the game.
As the person said, please think about your suggestions, and try not to assume its immediately overpowered just because a player lost to it in the GSL. Remember, only 3 days ago, it was the Colossus that was overpowered, before that it was the lategame High Templar, and before that it was the Void Ray.
On March 21 2011 04:58 acidstormy wrote: protoss needs it for support of the gateway units. Last time i checked, speed roaches and mass lings can rape pure gateway. Stimmed marauders/marines can rape pure gateway. sentries are an already expensive unit for the amount of damage and health it has. sentries are perfectly fine, everyone is crying OP about it now because people need to find things that are broken (even if its not even broken).
Its not about the forcefields in general that are the main complaints from (i think) Its about the fact that a bunch of sentries just can completely block reinforcements. This is not about having great micro or anything to counter it, a forcefield will still block your way even if you were the top of the world against a lower skilled opponent.
On March 20 2011 00:21 Arkless wrote: Did you really make another QQ thread? I honestly can't believe thisd is a topic of discussion ATM. Firstly, you stated a pro said in beta how force fields were the most broken thing in the game. Well, you neglected to mention how much more dps the sentries did in beta, and how much bigger the forcefield was. Forcefield is a needed component, much like concuss and stim, and ling speed etc. Please stop mkaing this qq thread with a different name.
Yes sentries are necessary against Terran. But it seems that PERFECT forcefield play negates literally everything a zerg player can do to counter it. MC is amazing, which is exactly why this topic is created. If perfectly casted, forcefields can seemingly negate anything a zerg player can do. If this is the case, as Protoss players approach MC levels of skill, Zerg will be unable to win. It is a potential imbalance exposed by his tremendous skill.
Also, as you mentioned they have tweaked the sentries numerous times, which should indicate you that the ability is strong enough to require significant tweaking to get right. True the sentry certainly is not as good as the beta sentry and it has taken, but does that mean it's properly balanced now? Perhaps it just took this long for toss player to reach a level of skill where the forcefield's ability to abuse zerg mechanics is really becoming apparent. This should be up for debate.
If anything, a change needs to be made for the sake of SC2 as a spectator sport. It was very boring to watch even if it was technically excellent. It isn't fun watching a player literally helpless despite doing a lot of things right, you need some sort opportunity for July to micro his way to a victory to keep you on the edge of your seat. Once his main was ff'd off in the first game though it was gg. A confrontation that ends right when it begins is pretty boring IMO.
All in all though, MC deserved to win. I think we all just wish it was a little more entertaining.
I'm sorry, but july lost because he did nothing but make a minimal amount of units, and drone. He got owned with the same strat for 4/5 games and didn't switch up once. He could have did a 1 base all in, coulda dropped more than the only 2 spines he dropped in the last game. He basically said, Hi I'm july. My favorite unit is a drone, and that is all I will make. Roach burrow could have been used, he coud have even dropped a spire, but he did nothing to change. Mc exploited an opponents weakenss with forcefields. He didn't exploit forcefields themselves. I think this is a trivial topic, because it is always a zerg starting them. But if you see a zerg rape an army with fungals (which imo is far worse because it roots u in place and does mad damage) It's good play. Fuck that. L2P before you qq, and instead of doing the same cookie cutter builds, try to strat around it.
Make Forcefield a channeling spell, sentry can't move, the spell drain mana over time, it can last longer than 15 sec, only way to remove the forcefield is to kill the sentry.
They need to give zerglings a tier 1 researchable ability to run down cliffs. That way toss needs to use more ff to cover themselves and can't block ramps offensively.
I don't understand this hate for FF..... P needs it. Without it, they'd get rolled every fucking game vs T, and would never be able to live through any early pressure by Z. And I dont' even play P..... But I've seen it from the other side, and have definitely taken advantage of bad P players who dont use forcefield well.
The main problem is the offensive capabilities of forcefield. But, even then, that alone is not a problem. Ever faced someone 4 or 6 gating you, but you constantly killed their probe trying to build the proxy pylon? The push fails miserably, because without those extra 4 or 6 units right then, Z's units and defensive capabilities are able to handle it. The main problem isn't the forcefield, it's the reinforcement rate that P can have in combination with forcefields.
P also needs warpgate, since the early game units are so fragile. Without it, they'd die to any moderately-early early pressure, yet again. So getting rid of either, or nerfing either, is clearly not going to fix the problem without causing a new serious one somewhere else.
Later in the game Z gets access to units and abilities that can help. Infestors, roaches, mutas, and eventually ultras, drops, broodlords, etc all can deal with them, with use of micro. So, later on, it's not a big deal.
So, something else needs to be done so that Z can defend against early, abusive FF + warpgate plays (4 gate and 6 gate are the 2 main ones), without screwing up the current balance in the mid to late game.
Defending against warpgate requires Z taking down the pylon. While this is completely possible, a good P will never let you snipe their probe, and will make more than 1 pylon if needed. Defending against forcefields is currently impossible - it is up to the P player's discretion as to when, where, and how to use them. Meaning that the only way Z can really defend against them is if P makes a mistake and Z can capitalize on it.
It's not a very interesting scenario when one player is hoping that the other screws up -_-
So, imo, some kind of change needs to happen, so that there can actually be a micro battle or superior decision making used to decide the winner, rather than the current situation.
I've only seen one solution presented that could do this, without changing the game drastically - making the queen "Massive". This would allow a queen to bust down forcefield blocks early on. Since queens are really, really fucking slow off creep, this would give a hand to Z in a defensive situation, because there is no realistic way to use this offensively in the early-ish game.
I'm sure some timing attacks could be developed off of 1 base like a 7rr + queen to break through a FF, but I don't think that bringing a queen along with the push would make it much harder to defend than it already is, since most Ps seem to mass buildings to block it off completely, as well as get fast void rays, and once there are 2 void rays out, the push is dead. So, for an offensive use, I dont think that this change would make a considerable difference.
Another obvious side effect is that Phoenixes couldn't lift a queen anymore. To get rid of this problem, Make it so the queen is not always massive. Solutions could be something like giving the queen an additional spell which will allow it to become massive for a set period of time (make it relatively expensive, like 50 energy for 22.5 seconds, which would also make it harder to do early rushes involving a queen to break up the ramp, eliminating one main problem), or a channelling spell like cloak (so that it can't be used all the time, and has to be used with care), or make it a transformation-like special like siege mode is for tanks (possibly disabling all other abilities the queen could use, and maybe even resetting the mana to zero when it transforms back), or even make it a morph from the queen, much like banelings morph from zerglings. I'm sure there are other possibilities, all of which have pros and cons.
Another obvious side effect is that queens are able to knock down forcefields as part of the army. This could be the biggest problem, but it would force P players to be more careful with how they engage in the mid game, and could possibly help Z out vs the death ball that P can make, so I'm not sure how badly this would affect the later stages of the game.
Adding more functionality to an underused caster unit doesn't seem to be a bad idea to me. Especially if it can be used to help fix a very specific problem without affecting much else in the game.
Ultimately though, something needs to be done so that it is possible to deal with any of the abusive stuff that P can do with with FF + warpgate by using building positioning, unit micro, and good decision making. You don't get to do that against forcefields as they currently are.
Looking back at BW, whenever there was some type of unit or gimmick that was considered "imba", there was some kind of unit composition+micro+decision making that could be used to defend against it. And every race had a bunch of such "imba" options and "imba countering" options. So far, unless I'm missing something big (which is possible, and if so I hope someone figures it out and lets everyone know before blizz decides to make a change like they've done with some other things *cough* reaper speed *cough*), there is no such balance in zvp revolving around early forcefield usage.
Early forcefields are the ultimate force multiplier and the ability is the best game dictating spell if used correctly. And I don't know what the proper response is (other than sacking units to kill sentries or waste forcefield energy before it gets to the point that forcefields could be used to such a devastating effect). I know that there have been a bunch of players I've absolutely demolished because they didn't use forcefields well, but I also know that if they used them better, the result would have been the exact opposite.
On March 21 2011 05:21 Whitewing wrote: Let fungal growth cancel forcefields!
=p
I want to see more infestors, even if the idea is arbsurdly stupid.
Lol that sounds fun, Fungal is so strong it eats forcefields =D. EMP by lore should eat forcefields by default, not so sure on psistorm though, vortex kill forcefields =P
Today I watched the VoDs of the July vs MC build. I tend to agree that Force Fields are a bit too powerful but maybe that is not the issue. In my opinion the problem for zergs comes by the lack of scouting mechanisms.
We are past the days when you could run a speedling in your opponent's base because he had lowered the depot/moved the guarding zealot or made a mistake. Same goes for flying an overlord with ~0.5 speed. Zerg has to play on assumptions and it works until the moment when the opponent has a 4-5-6 set of strategies that require completly different play. Zerg lacks the utility of the protoss and terran(stalker or marine as an example) but also lacks a reliable scout mechanism and I think that is the root of all problems and OP topics.
I tend to agree with the scouting thing. In an analysis thread, I said basically the same thing. The other half of that is that P doesn't really have to scout the Z in the same situation because there's not a whole lot the Z can do that the P has to worry about.
Might've been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm too lazy to read through every page. I wouldn't mind seeing hallucinate being a baseline ability and forcefield be researchable through the cyber core. Then as toss I have to make the decision to either rush warpgate research or forcefield, giving me an offensive or defensive option (yes, warpgate can be defensive too).
Plus making hallucinate baseline would allow toss to have some variability in build orders because we wouldn't be forced robo just to get information.
Does no one else feel like this whole "problems with forcefield" discussion looks a whole lot like the "problems with marines" discussion when MKP was starting to fully utilize marines?
Nothing changed because nothing needed to change. People figured it out, life goes on. New styles that make a unit or spell or something look abusive and extremely imbalanced is a normal part of RTS strategic development.
I firmly believe that any tournament match which makes people have these "Holy shit, this ruins the game" thought should only be considered such after at LEAST a month. Just look at the 2rax vs Zerg situation. We saw it every single GSL ZvT. It was basically unbeatable. Very little changed, now its beatable and by no means the standard.
Map adjustments were made, 2rax worked great on large maps.
2 rax pressure worked on Shakuras cross spawns. Changes were made to the map pool, but it doesn't change the fact that the build was already proven to work on huge spawn differences. And lets not forget the fact that people started to say that marines countered every zerg unit because MKP started to show people how well you can split marines.
But of course any comparison will not be perfect. If it was possible for me to make a proper comparison, SC2 would be boring as shit. My only point is that regardless of anything, it is downright improper to judge the long-term balance of the game based on a single tournament. Things change.
The problem is also that forcefield makes you want to bang your head against the wall. Its like spider mines in BW. Most annoying fucking thing in the world, just plain shitty to play against. Or mass talon vs Orc in WC3.
My main point is just that time and time again, we the SC2 community have made ourselves look like fools in our knee-jerk responses to the results of a single tournament.
I realize many of you are new to the RTS scene and that this might be your first RTS game. But this is not uncommon. I admit that MC made forcefield look totally imba in his games against July, but it has happened before. There have been so many things similar to this in both SC2 and other RTS games. Give it a full month or so. If it still looks wildly out of control, then its worth talking about. But this is nothing new, people.
On March 21 2011 07:24 Mohdoo wrote: Does no one else feel like this whole "problems with forcefield" discussion looks a whole lot like the "problems with marines" discussion when MKP was starting to fully utilize marines?
Nothing changed because nothing needed to change. People figured it out, life goes on. New styles that make a unit or spell or something look abusive and extremely imbalanced is a normal part of RTS strategic development.
I firmly believe that any tournament match which makes people have these "Holy shit, this ruins the game" thought should only be considered such after at LEAST a month. Just look at the 2rax vs Zerg situation. We saw it every single GSL ZvT. It was basically unbeatable. Very little changed, now its beatable and by no means the standard.
Map adjustments were made, 2rax worked great on large maps.
2 rax pressure worked on Shakuras cross spawns. Changes were made to the map pool, but it doesn't change the fact that the build was already proven to work on huge spawn differences. And lets not forget the fact that people started to say that marines countered every zerg unit because MKP started to show people how well you can split marines.
But of course any comparison will not be perfect. If it was possible for me to make a proper comparison, SC2 would be boring as shit. My only point is that regardless of anything, it is downright improper to judge the long-term balance of the game based on a single tournament. Things change.
The problem is also that forcefield makes you want to bang your head against the wall. Its like spider mines in BW. Most annoying fucking thing in the world, just plain shitty to play against. Or mass talon vs Orc in WC3.
My main point is just that time and time again, we the SC2 community have made ourselves look like fools in our knee-jerk responses to the results of a single tournament.
I realize many of you are new to the RTS scene and that this might be your first RTS game. But this is not uncommon. I admit that MC made forcefield look totally imba in his games against July, but it has happened before. There have been so many things similar to this in both SC2 and other RTS games. Give it a full month or so. If it still looks wildly out of control, then its worth talking about. But this is nothing new, people.
Sigh it is not the same then when MKP did his awesome marine micro. You know that 1 little change? you could actually do something against it if you practice against it enough. His style got figured out and it doesn't work nearly as good anymore. 2 rax got used so much that ppl learned from their mistakes. a forcefield will still block your ramp to prevent your reinforcements even after you play a million matches against it.
I'm sorry, I admittedly have not read the thread so excuse me if this has been mentioned. But this seems to a popular topic, and it seems like a good one for the next imbalanced episode. : )
Now it's FF QQ, so MC crushes with a 3 gate push no sentries losing no units.
I'd like for you to explain how MC doing a 3 gate push without sentries has any relevancy to the discussion about forcefields. As a side note, the zerg played quite, quite terrible that game. I believe two drone weren't mining the entire game, instead they were following another drone.
Now it's FF QQ, so MC crushes with a 3 gate push no sentries losing no units.
I'd like for you to explain how MC doing a 3 gate push without sentries has any relevancy to the discussion about forcefields. As a side note, the zerg played quite, quite terrible that game. I believe two drone weren't mining the entire game, instead they were following another drone.
As has been stated dozens of times in this thread there are hard counters for both races against a sentry builds. Much of it ignored. I merely suggest in a round about way exactly what you state, terrible play not FF are appearing as imbalance. I find it funny after these threads are made, usually after MC demolishes someone in some fashion, he uses something else IMBA..almost like he's reading..
people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard
Can someone find the timings at which MC hit with his 6 gates? I want to check something, but I haven't the capability to stream the matches again to find out for myself
people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard
I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted
I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
On March 20 2011 15:06 Sensator wrote: Queens having a passive ability to break forcefields on entry would fix 4gate rushes, but it won't make a difference when you have to fight away from your creep.
Forced to creep more, and bring slower Queen. Maybe buff Queen speed by 0.1 or something.
I didn't think people would take my suggestion on IRC seriously about Queens. It just seems like too easy of a fix.
The problem is how Terran will deal with Force Fields as well, and Protoss as well.
I play Terran AND Zerg and Zerg definitely has a much harder time dealing with FF than the other races.
PvP is all about 4 gate, or 3 stalker rush to delay their 4 gate to allow robotics. PvP can either transition out of 4 gate into 1 base colossus play which destroys FF, no problem there, or Blink Stalkers, again no problem there.
PvT, Terran can get thors relatively quickly, if you see a 6 gate rush with no robo getting early thors is not a bad idea. Also siege tanks are great at stopping sentries from blocking your ramp which is the main problem in PvZ. Obviously because siege tanks have superior range and out range FF and a big clump of them would get demolished rather quickly with only 3 shots from a tank.
PvZ on the other hand, Zerg has no early response they either need Ultralisks, Tunneling Claws, Banelings with Burrow or Overlord Drops and all of these things take time. Zerg works differently as many Zerg players know but it seems the toss players just don't know. Toss can get two geysers quickly because their 1 base play and gas usage early on in the game is extremely cost effective. Zerg getting 2 geysers off 1 base is atrocious, we don't have lurkers to spend the gas on in the mid game and the only other options are drops. Yea burrow works but it DOESN'T help you get down your ramp to defend your natural.
NO OTHER race has this problem as I said before, even when toss takes an expansion they are investing all that gas into sentries for early defense but these units are also great at offense, as seen by MC he moves out with lots of sentries then reinforces with lots of stalkers when he begins blocking the main ramp. Zerg just needs some minor buff to help them, like give them burrow at hatchery tech but make the research time longer to compensate for not needing a lair. At least that way, zerg can research tunneling claws immediately after lair if they suspect a big sentry push.
I really don't think Force fields need a fix at all, I think Zerg just needs a little buff. Terran can deal with FF perfectly fine and toss? Well, PvP is a joke I don't think balancing PvP should be discussed at all.
On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote: I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
Technically the ultra is the counter for zerg. (some might say burrow and drop as well). Doesn't help in the large majority of games though.
And the last part is more about bad casting than anything. They do the same with storm and fungal even when they are cast very poorly and have nothing do to with the opponent microing his way out of the situation.
On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote: I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
That and marine micro. Click+H+Click+H+Click+H+Click+H. SO GOOOOOOOOOD.
I'm exaggerating, of course. I'm not nearly comfortable enough with marines to do the gosugosu click+h. Or FFs. My micro sucks, BUT pros' micro skills don't.
One-sided spells suck. If Fungal changes so that it becomes a spell you can micro against, that's an improvement (plus the increased DPS cost of not dodging it = probably the best balancing move Blizzard's made). FFs are basically an 'Oh welp you got me guess imma die now' vZ. vT they serve a very clear and legitimate purpose of 'pleasedontdieireallywannanotdie.'
While FF sucks, I said before that you can't fundamentally retool the Protoss race and remove FF until HotS, but you can give Zerg an answer before then. The options lie in either making Burrow hatch tech (with the side effect of making Baneling Bombs/Roaches more viable early game) or greatly reducing the cost of drops (with the side effect of... more drops). I don't think either would be all that bad. For as one who has played/is playing Zerg/Terran, fuck DTs. I think it only karmic justice if cloaked units could hit back against this annoying Sentryu push.
On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote: I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
How does that logically follow? Graviton beam has only "one side of the equation" is that OP? There are many spells in sc2 which are "one side of the equation" as much as FF, EMP for example, as with EMP the way to reduce the efficacy of FF is with good unit positioning (not even mentioning burrow).
how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance
On March 21 2011 09:16 storm44 wrote: how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance
Blizzard goes to the community a lot for balance lol. Posts like these COULD matter more than some think.
maybe someone have posted this idea before me, but if you could attack the force field, lets say it got 200-300 HP, it wouldnt be as strong in choke block situations as now but still usefull?
@V6, as someone as mentioned before, HP does not solve the problem. MMM with stim will break forcefields with ridiculous ease leaving protoss hanging early game.
To all people saying burrow works. Tbh, burrow only prevents your units from taking damage (and regen some HP). Burrowing during a 6 gate push means the Protoss army has a 15 sec free reign over your base. Imo, if tunneling claws came default with roaches once burrow is research, it could fix a lot of problems.
And we could see much more burrow movement in Zerg play!
Suggestion for force field, since the main problem is with the ramp block in ZvP. I've seen this around alot so I don't claim it's my idea originally, but just make Queens massive. I know it might create problems with Void Rays, but that is something that could be changed somehow, and I don't see this being a real problem. It would also create a really cool option of using queen bombs on force fields.
On March 21 2011 12:50 ClutchSC wrote: Suggestion for force field, since the main problem is with the ramp block in ZvP. I've seen this around alot so I don't claim it's my idea originally, but just make Queens massive. I know it might create problems with Void Rays, but that is something that could be changed somehow, and I don't see this being a real problem. It would also create a really cool option of using queen bombs on force fields.
Or even give queens an anti forcefield spell either way it would allow zergs to have a counter against a strong push with FFs. I definently like the idea of the queen getting some anti forcefield treatment just because of the slowness off creep, I think it's about the fairest idea I've seen Queens for Defensive forcefield elimination and ultras for offensive forcefield elimination.
On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote: I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
How does that logically follow? Graviton beam has only "one side of the equation" is that OP? There are many spells in sc2 which are "one side of the equation" as much as FF, EMP for example, as with EMP the way to reduce the efficacy of FF is with good unit positioning (not even mentioning burrow).
Well duh, not EVERY spell, I said critical spells - those that can change the entire tide of the battle with their casts. And before you call me out on changing the tide of battle, every spell caster can do it with a ton of them(except corruptors, corruptors are bad) so it takes some judgement. Graviton isn't designed as a powerhouse spell like forcefield is.
As a protoss player I will admit that a lot of the arguments seem valid, and there might be a possible imbalance there, but those matches specifically do not indicate imbalance to me.
Quite honestly, I'd rather have the game more balanced around the idea of forcefield not being changed, maybe some other part of the sentry is changed, but not the forcefield it's self. It's like the energy upgrade debate, I'm not in favor it from a game play perspective. Warping in storms is fun as hell, I get that it can be problematic, but it's just really damn fun to do. Forcefields are one of the most rewarding and fun spells to use in the game, not being able to use them as much seems like another nerf that would make the game more bland for me personally.
I do like the queen to massive idea, probably something worth testing out, and the forcefield changes as well. I could be wrong, the game might not change much from the changes as far as the fun factor goes, but altering one of my favorite spells makes me nervous.
On March 21 2011 08:40 goiflin wrote: Can someone find the timings at which MC hit with his 6 gates? I want to check something, but I haven't the capability to stream the matches again to find out for myself
people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard
I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted
All you have to do is watch season 2 how Nestea shut it down. By making mutas you force MC into not making enough sentires to matter either via stalker production or stargate. Also, like many have said borrow roach too. Both July utterly failed to do.
On March 21 2011 08:40 goiflin wrote: Can someone find the timings at which MC hit with his 6 gates? I want to check something, but I haven't the capability to stream the matches again to find out for myself
people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard
I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted
All you have to do is watch season 2 how Nestea shut it down. By making mutas you force MC into not making enough sentires to matter either via stalker production or stargate. Also, like many have said borrow roach too. Both July utterly failed to do.
If it was nestea in the finals, he would have done a way better job holding off those attacks and i guarantee you zerg wouldnt be screaming imbalance, because of 1 finals suddenly the whole zerg community is up in arms about how imbalanced it is, when july didnt even play that well. I can agree that the community as a whole agreed that forcefields were a strong spell before but i rarely saw anyone scream imbalance, its 1 finals people and the zerg didnt even play that well. I know its nice to have something cry about in terms of imbalance but why not try and figure out ways to stop it (like you did with 2 rax all ins) instead of making 100 posts about FF imbalance. Protoss gateway units would need to be changes drastically if FF received a significant nerf and you know what the same people would still be complaining.
The one suggestion i did like was to make Forcefields last slightly less time on creep , like 10-12 seconds instead of 15, that would be reasonable.
On March 21 2011 09:16 storm44 wrote: how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance
Blizzard goes to the community a lot for balance lol. Posts like these COULD matter more than some think.
Te amount of times i have seen a mod post "These are not the bnet forums, if you have suggestions about game design post them there" makes me think otherwise.
The amount of FF threads are starting to get a bit annoying; A lot of people are overlooking the serious mistakes that July made; also the fact that MC is on a completely different level of skill makes it a really tough argument.. I mean he is very close to being the first SC2 bonjwa - and July is just nowhere near that level..
First id like to state that FF should not be removed from the game. Period.
Second, an ability that disables the use of micro is bad. In sc2 damage per area ratio is very important, FF's can cut armies into sections reducing damage done to the Protoss army significantly while in turn picking off units essentially for free. There is nothing the other player can do about it. However if FF is tweeked so that it cannot be placed in an area where a unit resides, it would fix everything that people see is a problem with the FF. Players could position units on the ramp so it cannot be force fielded, which is a strategic play that rewards a more skilled player. Additionally it would prevent mindless FF spamming to cut armies into sections and picking them off, but instead strategically placing them to create chokes or cut off retreat paths. This single change would promote more micro on both sides.
Could anyone please try to point out any negative thoughts regarding this? I honestly cannot come up with anything.
Personally, as a master Protoss player, I do think FF is a problem, but there is a huge issue... it is there to solve a bigger problem.
Protoss gateway units suck. Badly. They also scale the worst with +armor +attack upgrades, such that as the game goes on the weaker the weakest T1 units become in an actual fight.
The solution? Sentries. FF and Guardian shield make up for the inept combat abilities of zealots and stalkers, this leaves Protoss in a reasonable spot to defend early game.
But what if we removed FF? Protoss couldn't defend early pushes reasonably at all.
What if we buffed T1 Protoss units and remove sentries? 4-gates would go from being really strong to completely broken, due to the warp-in mechanic.
Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
The best solution that I've seen so far is the increase of energy of FF and increase the sentry warp-in energy. That allows warp-in FF and overall less FF when energy goes up.
People have to remember that sentry do incredibly low DPS and costs 100 gas to have. They are essential in early game and warp-in guaranteed defense is critical for protoss to survive any sort of early aggression.
On March 20 2011 02:35 Zelniq wrote: Arghhh this is driving me crazy
Everyone keeps focusing on the FF's when the only reason July kept losing was because he was going for the wrong things, in the wrong order. he kept going for hydras, either making them or making a blind hydra den and delaying Burrow or not getting it at all. It's really simple to stop all the attacks, you get roaches and burrow and that completely nullifies any amount of force field godliness whatever. Zerg simply does not have enough gas to go hydra den + overseer + burrow + roach speed all when lair finishes, you have to choose wisely and he kept choosing a blind hydra den when there were no signs of any air, instead of going burrow blindly, which is what you absolutely need to do unless you scout indications that he wont be doing a warpgate timing
Zelniq has the right idea people. Forcefields aren't fundamentally broken, it just kinda needs a really specific counter-action.
I do wonder if a quick cooldown (i.e. 3-5 seconds) would make the game more interesting. Probably a protoss needs slightly more accurate/efficient forcefields and bring the skill ceiling up?
Forcefields are necessary to lower the opponent's armies dps in the way the game is currently balanced with sentries actually being a pretty big investment. The problem, from a spectators point of view, is that they're not reducing the opposing armies dps - they're removing it. When good FFs split a zerg army, maybe 1/5 (if that) of their army is able to dps into units which can regen shields - effectively killing nothing. The unit "trade" is shifting from trading combat units for combat units, to combat units for sentry energy. Trade enough times, and the zerg doesn't have a large enough army to combat even the low energy sentries/stalker/zealot.
Before raising my pitchfork and lighting my torch though, I'd really like to see a detailed valuation of how much a FF is actually worth in battle - easier said than done. I think that would shed a lot of light onto the situation for whether it's balanced or not.
Most importantly, they don't make the game more interesting to watch. Even watching a 1 sided battle can be fun as long as there's lasers and explosions and acid and a player outwitted his opponent. Watching 4/5 of a zergs army moving erratically behind a forcefield unable to fight while commentators scream "AZMZING FORCEFIELDS BEST I'VE EVER SEEN" is pretty disappointing, in my opinion of course.
As a toss player, it's SO rewarding to use FF effectively, cause I've practiced really hard at being able to use them properly. As i'm sure it's equally as rewarding to FG an army, or EMP a whole bunch of *gasp* sentries! jk/jk Genius' in his recently play vs MVP in GSL up/down, i found his FF's to be a bit ineffective and wasteful at times. Not all players are MC with FF's. Infact no one is. IMO, doesn't seem fair to base an argument of a broken mechanic, because a player is freakishly good at abusing it. Dunno if Blizzard could predict an MC when making SC2 hehe. But i'm only a gold player, so opinion is fairly jaded
On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote: Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion.
On March 20 2011 00:39 StateOfZerg wrote: Guys, I am a 3200 SEA , 3500 NA random player. I do not want to be bias to any race but as a player who've played both Zerg and Protoss, I wish to clarify some issues with fellow TL'ers.
First, Forcefield IS indeed too strong a spell. But does that mean it is imbalanced? Maybe. The key in its strength is versatility. Defensively, forcefields ARE required by the protoss to tech up to a comfortable position against Terrans.Forcefields are so strong because of its ability to dissect an entire army.
Many trolls QQ about gateway units being weak, but in fact, it is not the case. In realistic scenarios, DPS per unit area is much more important and stalkers being the tanks they are deal the maximum DPS per unit area over an extended battle due to most of them surviving. Many people often often misconceive that the deathball is strong because of the colossus, but in fact, a stalker ball is one of the strongest armies in SC2. 6 range heavy hp benefits most realistic scenarios. Couple that with sentries splitting effective army size and decreasing DPS per unit area of other races through force field placement.
I have played Protoss against zergs countless times and it is INDEED hard to perfect forcefield placement. BUT is perfect placement really needed? Most times, with a stalker ball, and 6 gate sentry push, I dictate where my battles take place. I set the rules of engagement and positioning of enemy. It doesn't matter whether the zerg has a good arc or a bigger army, all i do is section the front most portion and destroy the enemy part by part.
I really like the Protoss race as it is unique, but guys, Protoss players especially, please admit that forcefield is too versatile of a spell. It prevents repair, it dissects any army which does not have its counters, it prevents reinforcements, prevents scouting, harass and allows the game flow to be controlled by the Protoss. I play Terran and find that Protoss does need defense against early marine marauder pressure, but don't you think forcefield should be more punishing to its user?
IMO, Forcefield should be changed to a spell which can only be placed on empty hexes. It disallows army splitting and rewards planned play. It would also not allow a player like JulyZerg, who saw the push coming from afar to be helpless in reinforcement. July could then use Zergling micro on the ramp to prevent forcefield placement. It becomes a more fair micro battle for both players. One player can then try to deny forcefield placement and the other would have to seek opportunities. Starcraft should be a game which rewards planning and not instant decisions. Warp in is already instant defence and reinforcement. comeon guys, lets not be defensive of our races and admit a tweak to forcefield would result in a better metagame in the future.
I like your arguments a lot, and agree unless mass sentry is scouted FF will dominate matchups as players mimic MC play, but a MMM/roach ball will roll right through protoss w/o ability of dividing up an army (the explicit intention of FF according to blizzard) and you can only divide up army by casting FF ON units. Like you say it's about DPS and MM/RH do much more than any protoss combination per cost/supply. I think much would be solved with a decent zerg scouting unit who has pathetic scouting as is....baring that -
You have to give alternative to be competitive if you can only drop on empty spaces because you can only run once or twice before you run out of FF! - alternative would be provide mid game upgrades to WG units out of Templar Archives. I have not thought about it much but like super duper psyblades and armor upgrades because protoss can't run and can't divide anymore so they will get crushed otherwise.
BTW - if you REALLY wanna see how powerful FF is go watch the game with bleach where MC forces all his MM into a donut hole, about 40, just pushes them all into 1 square, and blasts them with a single shot from col. Got Ghosts?
Everything has a counter and IMO zerg just needs better scouting to counter, not nerf FF.
I always lean on side of buffs rather than nerfs because more abilities the better and more dynamic and complex game is.
Now let's talk about that expensive joke called a Carrier
On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote: Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion.
What is your guys take on this?
The game design is that Protoss are supposed to use Warpgates rather than Gateways, but it would be broken to have them from the start, so the unlock is delayed.
Likewise, Terran is supposed to have Orbitals and Zerg is supposed to have Queens; they cost far less than is reasonable if you assume there's meant to be a reasonable choice involved. You would only delay Orbital/Warp/Queen if you're trying to rush out something very specific... and never skip them entirely.
On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote: Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion.
What is your guys take on this?
The game design is that Protoss are supposed to use Warpgates rather than Gateways, but it would be broken to have them from the start, so the unlock is delayed.
Likewise, Terran is supposed to have Orbitals and Zerg is supposed to have Queens; they cost far less than is reasonable if you assume there's meant to be a reasonable choice involved. You would only delay Orbital/Warp/Queen if you're trying to rush out something very specific... and never skip them entirely.
Yeah I see what you are saying, but I still entirely disagree with that philosophy. It just negates so much strategy that could be put into making more specialized builds and distinguishing players styles and such. I don't like the idea of essential components of a race that are very cheap and easy to attain. It blurs play styles together which makes the game less exciting. The more choices the more variety which is best if you ask me. I dunno, but thats my opinion on the matter.
Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immportal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
@R0YAL Although that is not the topic I support the idea of gateway(decrease build times)-warp gate(increase build times but warp anywhere on power field). It seems like protoss is having it a bit too easy
Since I do believe that my thoughts are quite worth thinking about them for a second I'll quote myself from that other post regarding the issue which just got closed.
On March 21 2011 16:51 iNfeRnaL wrote: How can people still not realize that it's not about the fact that spell itself being overpowered but about the fact that there is smart casting? In my opinion if there was no such thing as smart casting (which is simply a big skill-killer) it would be a lot harder to place really good force fields in the short amount of time you do need to place them - as well as it would be a lot easier for the Zerg to dodge those. And voilá there you got your more dynamic micro again.
SC BW is an amazing game because all its spells can be counteracted. Storm dodging. splitting when irradiated, running from dark swarmed units. There is less to be said about forcefields, which are instant and impossible to dodge.
Please imagine Templars with smartcast in Broodwar, hooray for the whole screen being covered in Psi Storm with every possible unit on this screen having absolutely no chance but to move from one storm into another. Or 5 Defilers casting perfect dark swarms right onto the entrance of the Terran's mainbase because of smartcast. Or what happens if you have 12 vessels with smartcast.
Counter acting is a lot about reaction time - and having to atleast select each sentry manually would give you exactly this time to react, no?
Regarding the idea of not being able to put a FF on top of units, sorry but nope, just imagine a burrowed ling on your natural choke which you never knew about and other things that could potentially happen before you have an observer. Way too much abuse potential imo. However, it should really not be possible for a unit to remain "inside" of a forcefield totally immobilized, imo it should get either pushed to one or the other side, which would also solve quite a bit of the issue already.
That's pretty much all I've got to say on the issue. Please notice however, that despite the fact that while I do want to see Blizzard take a step back - atleast when it comes to this very mechanic, I do no want Blizzard to turn SC2 into BW in new graphics nor do I intend to start ANY discussion that compares Broodwar to SC2, all I did try is to make up a *possible* and in my opinion really obvious solution to the problems we've seen recently. I will not respond to any QQ'ing, however if you have a good argument you're welcome to point out if & where my logic fails me here.
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote: Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immportal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
@R0YAL Although that is not the topic I support the idea of gateway(decrease build times)-warp gate(increase build times but warp anywhere on power field). It seems like protoss is having it a bit too easy
Appreciate your experiments and welcome to forums. There are tons of vods showing these hard counters but best to experiment on your own. Indeed the biggest problem for Zerg is early game scouting for this and lots of other things. I don't know how you fix it. Maybe queen can summon a fast bee or something speed like a hallucinated pheonix but with low HP.
FF is one of the many reasons I believe ZvP will end up being all about dropping banelings. I already consider baneling/ling a better defense against 4-gate than roaches and drop is easier to tech to than all of the roach upgrades against a 6-gate.
On March 21 2011 18:03 iNfeRnaL wrote: Since I do believe that my thoughts are quite worth thinking about them for a second I'll quote myself from that other post regarding the issue which just got closed.
On March 21 2011 16:51 iNfeRnaL wrote: How can people still not realize that it's not about the fact that spell itself being overpowered but about the fact that there is smart casting? In my opinion if there was no such thing as smart casting (which is simply a big skill-killer) it would be a lot harder to place really good force fields in the short amount of time you do need to place them - as well as it would be a lot easier for the Zerg to dodge those. And voilá there you got your more dynamic micro again.
SC BW is an amazing game because all its spells can be counteracted. Storm dodging. splitting when irradiated, running from dark swarmed units. There is less to be said about forcefields, which are instant and impossible to dodge.
Please imagine Templars with smartcast in Broodwar, hooray for the whole screen being covered in Psi Storm with every possible unit on this screen having absolutely no chance but to move from one storm into another. Or 5 Defilers casting perfect dark swarms right onto the entrance of the Terran's mainbase because of smartcast. Or what happens if you have 12 vessels with smartcast.
Counter acting is a lot about reaction time - and having to atleast select each sentry manually would give you exactly this time to react, no?
Regarding the idea of not being able to put a FF on top of units, sorry but nope, just imagine a burrowed ling on your natural choke which you never knew about and other things that could potentially happen before you have an observer. Way too much abuse potential imo. However, it should really not be possible for a unit to remain "inside" of a forcefield totally immobilized, imo it should get either pushed to one or the other side, which would also solve quite a bit of the issue already.
That's pretty much all I've got to say on the issue. Please notice however, that despite the fact that while I do want to see Blizzard take a step back - atleast when it comes to this very mechanic, I do no want Blizzard to turn SC2 into BW in new graphics nor do I intend to start ANY discussion that compares Broodwar to SC2, all I did try is to make up a *possible* and in my opinion really obvious solution to the problems we've seen recently. I will not respond to any QQ'ing, however if you have a good argument you're welcome to point out if & where my logic fails me here.
at first of course your attempt seems reasonable, the delay you would get from eliminating smart casting would give the opponent time to move around / dodge the force fields.
but in sc2, everything is so goddamn fast, has such clean pathing and is possible to control with 1 control group. i assume you play sc2, and you play protoss (lol otherway i would be disappointed), how could you possibly force field slings in time without smart casting? they are so incredible fast, in the blink of an eye they are in your army. speed roaches on creep, stimmed mm, hellions. everything is soooo fast, you wouldn't be in time to force field by single selection.
Can somebody teach me how to micro dodging FFs with roaches and hydras?? Ans: its not possible... =.=... how do u dodge FFs faster than somebody clicking it in range?? but nerfing FFs are definately not an answer.... how would a P be able to deal with T without FFs?? i got no idea....
The problem is that the Protoss race as a whole is reliant on forcefields to not die at many points of the game. Nerfing forcefield in isolation screws everything up. I don't disagree that the balance of power with forcefield is wrong, it is the same problem with the Colossus. Colossi and forcefields are so good that everything else that Protoss has, has to be weaker to compensate.
I don't have any answers to fix this. But I sure hope Blizzard does, because stalker/sentry/colossus being the ideal Protoss lategame army in basically all matchups and situations (even more so after amulet nerf goes live) is a bit boring.
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote: Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.)
The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!
Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote: Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.)
The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!
Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
No, 2 base protoss 6gate timing push is designed specifically to counter muta build, if it is done well, it comes to your gate before your mutas arrive. Every zerg knows that you need to scout the protoss between 5 & 6 min, because that's the moment where he commit to something. You don't have overlord speed nor muta at 6min.
I don't know how to balance it but being able to cast infinite forcefields on an opposing zergs/terrans ramp and deny them being able to save expansions from early pressure is pretty tough.
Perhaps give them a HP value so atleast they have to target them down for a shortwhile which would still help out the protoss by wasting dps time of their oponents?
Or make it not castable on creep or maybe just on ramps at all.. but then u need to wall off with building + forcefield at top to block ramps vs terran which is probably not going to save you as the marauders can just destroy ur building making the wall off with just a few volleys.
Increasing the ability to scout is probably the easiest "fix" that might even out things a bit. If you go the route of changing the forcefields it could mean heavy implications on all matchups while better means to scout would only mean players can adjust faster to what their opponent is doing.
On March 21 2011 22:33 Phats wrote: I don't know how to balance it but being able to cast infinite forcefields on an opposing zergs/terrans ramp and deny them being able to save expansions from early pressure is pretty tough.
Perhaps give them a HP value so atleast they have to target them down for a shortwhile which would still help out the protoss by wasting dps time of their oponents?
Or make it not castable on creep or maybe just on ramps at all.. but then u need to wall off with building + forcefield at top to block ramps vs terran which is probably not going to save you as the marauders can just destroy ur building making the wall off with just a few volleys.
Or they could give each sentry diminishing return on Force fields. within say X seconds every force field casted by a sentry will have less duration than the prior one. You can block ramps still. but you better be hell good with your sentry micro on picking which sentries are on Diminishing return which ones aren't
(a) MC crushed July. He actually made July look like a scrub, which is crazy ...
(b) All non-Protoss players have had their assess burned by FF so many times. This match is what is commonly referred to as "the straw that broke the camels back." It is really not that difficult to see why it is a hot-button issue right now.
(c) Everyone loves this game, and feels creative, and therefore offers their ideas to change design elements. While most would think the vast majority here are not "qualified" to do so, the people offering suggestions are certainly entitled to do so and you can rest assured that these people are not on Blizzard's balancing team, lol. Blizzard could be inspired by any one of our comments. And if that happens, it would be implemented in a way that was considered "fair."
(d) This game should be hard. But should there be so many situations where it is impossible? I'm talking about straight up build order wins.
PROS ABUSE THIS GAME That is what they do, and they should. They do whatever it takes to win, and as the Blizzard team has said, if there is a whole in the game, even if it is a tiny one, the pros will drive a truck through it.
MC just said, hmmm, everyone wants gateway buffs? Really? You guys think the Colossus and the Kamulet are OP, ha. Nonsense. I'll win the GSL with nothing but Gateway units. Hahahahaha.
Obviously I'm being a little "tongue and cheek" there but it really did seem like he was just laughing all the way ...
ForceField is broken, but Blizzard will fix it. They will fix it with help from the community. Tons of ideas have been thrown around, and tons of examples exist in high level games all over the place. I don't know what the fix is, but the ideas I'm drawn mostly to are the ones that change the spell into a channeled ability:+ Show Spoiler +
(a) The Sentry must maintain the forcefield, one at a time. (b) It can still be smart and insta-cast. (c) If the Sentry maintaining the FF is killed, the FF disappears.
@TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue?
Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now.
the ace series of the finals of the GCPL- Sen vs. Naniwa on Metalopolis (game three iirc).
Constant aggression, poking, harrassment, drop play, etc. so that you never have to engage the entirety of the stronger Protoss army head on. That's the way Zerg should be played. More importantly, it's another solution to current forcefields without a silly nerf (though seriously, there have been so many answers given already that people just don't feel like trying, that it's getting kind of frustrating to read these posts).
Naniwa would get up a few nice forcefields and it would cut some of the Zerg armies pretty well (which it's supposed to do, no QQ required), but then Sen would be dealing damage elsewhere, like taking out the third base or dropping in the main.
Quite frankly, the Zerg should be using their speed and ability to re-max to put constant pressure everywhere. Micro-intensive? You bet it is. Does it work really well against Protoss armies, which are obviously less mobile? Hell yeah. Is a Protoss player supposed to really keep 6 sentries and a small ball of units that can actually deal significant damage in each of his bases and out on the map just to make sure he'll never get harrassed anywhere? A few cannons won't solve a true doom drop (or a decent mutalisk harrass), nor will a single round of warp-in units. Poke poke poke, aggression, harrassment, attack attack attack.
@Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
On March 21 2011 23:42 frucisky wrote: @TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue?
Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now.
You could solve that by changing the price and duration of forcefield. Instead of 50 energy for a 15 second forcefield you have a 20 energy cast and then the sentry has to expend 2 energy/second to maintain. You could even allow spellcasting by the sentry, so that each sentry can support multiple (though short lived) forcefields.
That means protoss could cast even more forcefields with less energy cost (as a 10 second FF is only 40 energy) but on the other hand the forcefields collapse when the opponent takes out your sentry and you lose the DPS sentries offer.
Oh.. and for comparison: Sentry DPS is about equal to a marauder vs a light target.
On March 21 2011 23:42 frucisky wrote: @TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue?
Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now.
The offensive FF on your opponent's ramp is such a strange thing to consider. It is not really black and white at all. You have to at least consider that if Protoss is in your natural and you lose because your army could not reinforce due to offensive ramp force fields, had you already lost the game due to other reasons and that tactic just seemed to look like what killed you?
But, the combination of Warpgates and ramp blocking with ForceField seems to effectively remove the defender's advantage completely. In fact, it basically removes the defender. Since both Terran and Zerg have reinforcements coming from the main in almost ALL scenarios, they are the most adversely affected by the offensive ramp FF. Protoss can obviously bypass the ramp with reinforcements because of Warpgates.
You cannot say, "No FFs on ramps," because that is just silly. So what do you do? I've heard people suggest that you make the Queen massive which sounds good on paper, until you consider the recent VR buff. The Phoenix+VR opener vs. Zerg is borderline right now anyway and making the queen massive may cause serious problems for Zerg.
Not allowing FF's on creep is going WAY TOO FAR in the other direction. Sorry ...
What if you can only FF middle-ground areas, like ramps, from higher ground than the ramp? This means you cannot waltz in on the low ground and FF your opponents ramp, but you can still FF a ramp you're defending the top of, or happen to get into an offensive position at the top of. You can still block the ramp at the bottom, but similar to needing multiple pylons or bunkers you will need multiple FF's, not just one.
some solution to nerf FF. i'll give 3proposition that can be independent or stackable. 1/ give them HP. so you can micro your way out by focusing the FF that is blocking your units 2/ give a dispel ability to units such as the infestor or ghost. or a new units in HoS. this involve micro to dispel the FF. 3/ the FF should not be casted OVER the head of units. it means you should cast your spell before any unit enter the casting zone. this way you could hold position a unit on your ramp so that the P can block your reinforcement to come protect your b2 and then freekill your b2 and runaway while all your units are blockes in your main.
On March 22 2011 00:22 GenZai wrote: some solution to nerf FF. i'll give 3proposition that can be independent or stackable. 1/ give them HP. so you can micro your way out by focusing the FF that is blocking your units 2/ give a dispel ability to units such as the infestor or ghost. or a new units in HoS. this involve micro to dispel the FF. 3/ the FF should not be casted OVER the head of units. it means you should cast your spell before any unit enter the casting zone. this way you could hold position a unit on your ramp so that the P can block your reinforcement to come protect your b2 and then freekill your b2 and runaway while all your units are blockes in your main.
I actually think making FFs have HP is a great idea.
On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote: @Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
All initial scouting units should be dead by the 5-6 minute mark (if they're still in the opponent's base), for all races, no? How does Zerg have a harder time scouting so early or preparing for rushes than any other race? The first drone is just as useful as the first probe or scv. Every race is just as in the dark as the others.
And actually, a well positioned overlord could be really good at scouting. Yeah, the Zerg will have to sacrifice it and maybe they won't get any good intel, but Terran runs the same risk when they throw down a scan (instead of MULEing), right? And Protoss just plain can't scout at that time, unless he gets down a super fast robo (which puts them behind production of attacking units as well), so all three races consciously need to make a decision to pause in their powering to try and gather some intel.
And then when it comes to later in the game, Zergs just need to start dropping changelings all over the place (which we're actually seeing more and more pros do). Sure, they may get sniped quickly, but they're absolutely free. You really can't beat that, especially when comparing it to using Terran energy for scans or being forced to send out your Protoss observers (instead of keeping them at home, for fear of cloaked/ burrowed attacks).
So my point is that yes, not knowing what your opponent is doing is absolutely scary, and so you need to be prepared for multiple scenarios and strategize well. And Zerg can prepare just as well as Protoss or Terran can. And sometimes you prepare for a rush that's not coming, or don't prepare for a rush that does come (but that's independent of the race you play). However, every race is in the same boat throughout the game as far as scouting goes. Zerg isn't at a disadvantage *because they can't scout at time x*, because no race can scout at time x. And at time y, when Protoss and Terran can both scout, Zerg can actually scout too.
On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: If a player cannot physically outplay an opponent, then all that's left is strategy, something that develops slowly, but is disseminated quickly. Basically everyone would be at just about the same level.
every chess player plays at exactly the same level, yeah?
On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: Since time is the most valuable of all resources in any rts game (more on that some other time),
I'd like to see forcefields be a projectile. So sentries fire a missile that when reaches its target it pops down a forcefield there. It can be relatively fast moving, but that way you'd have some ability to react to your enemy and back-up to prevent your army from being cut in half. Especially as zerg with fast moving units. Baiting forcefields would be more possible by feigning attacks and backing up quickly. Forcefields would require a lot more skill in general to use, but they will still be just as powerful as they are now if they land correctly.
On March 22 2011 00:57 dvide wrote: I'd like to see forcefields be a projectile. So sentries fire a missile that when reaches its target it pops down a forcefield there. It can be relatively fast moving, but that way you'd have some ability to react to your enemy and back-up to prevent your army from being cut in half. Especially as zerg with fast moving units. Baiting forcefields would be more possible by feigning attacks and backing up quickly. Forcefields would require a lot more skill in general to use, but they will still be just as powerful as they are now if they land correctly.
Also I liked the fungal growth missile
Baiting forcefields is already done though, by sending out just a few infantry units or zerglings early on, to keep the overall sentry energy low. The Protoss player needs to use forcefields, or else the sentries will get sniped (and then the rest of the army could follow in behind the early baiters).
If FF becomes a missile, then the first FF placed in the game (at the Protoss's own ramp, as defense against an early roach or marauder bust) would be easily confounded by the opponent. The Protoss needs to perfectly split the opponent's army.
Why are so many people convinced forcefields contributed so definitively to July's loss? The meta game was a 4-gate which July wasn't prepared for because he didn't scout the 4th gate, and he didn't see the expo got cancelled. One of the other games MC went for DTs and did some pretty substantial damage with those. On Shakuras, sure he did cast forcefield at some point in the match - but there was an extended period of time where he was mainly relying on blink micro to keep his stalkers from being destroyed. It isn't as though every game MC built mass sentries and FFed his way to victory... and if there truly was no way for zerg to beat gateway units with FF placement - why would MC have wasted money on blink/DTs? Why would MC have opened Stargate against Ciara on Tal'Darim altar, or pushed with only zealots and stalkers on Meta, if FFs were so good that he'd auto-win if he made sentries?
I'd like to see other races get spells as powerful as FF instead of nerfing FF. The last thing SC2 needs right now is another nerf to another skill-discriminating ability. By skill discriminating, I mean an ability that changes a lot depending on the skill of the user. The last thing protoss needs right now is another incentive to go colossus.
So people have been saying awhile now that colossus is "too" powerful but it has to be because otherwise toss gateway units are terrible. MC has completely disproved this, with solid FF usage zealot/stalker/sentry cannot only go toe to toe but completely rape roach/hydra. So toss no longer needs to even get colossus tech to counter zerg ground.
The "MC doughnut" is just fucked stupid. Nice that he is that good, but stupid that this skill ceiling is only available to one side. Boring to watch and boring to play against. I hate to say it but I'm getting sick of watching this game, it is too one sided.
FF is not imba. OGS.MC was imba during the GSL finals. July style of play and strategy for the games he lost, also played right into MC's hands. July needed to be a lot more defensive and he wasnt. He also did not engage MC at all on the way to his base. He pretty much let Mc walk right up to his expansions. There are many good zergs out there that handle that situation a lot better.
ALSO protoss gateway units suck compared to all other races. They cannot stand on their own.
Has anyone considered FF as an upgrade at the cyber core? i would make it a fairly cheap upgrade (50/50?)and fairly short duration to get it up. So in instances that you FE, you get FF's instead of really early warpgates. You will also have not as many units when you get warpgates finally up(after FFs) so it would nerf 4gates and 3 gates pretty hard. Unless you want to do a 4 gate without FFs. idk.
im not a pro by any means but maybe it should be considered!
On March 22 2011 01:10 andrewlt wrote: I'd like to see other races get spells as powerful as FF instead of nerfing FF. The last thing SC2 needs right now is another nerf to another skill-discriminating ability. By skill discriminating, I mean an ability that changes a lot depending on the skill of the user. The last thing protoss needs right now is another incentive to go colossus.
Agreed. When you say "as powerful as" FF, are you referring to spells that remove the ability to micro? Because Zerg has fungal growth and Terran has concussive shells.
Now granted, infestors are far less common (and harder to tech to, in general), than sentries. However, a single FG is far more powerful than a single FF, as the former freezes units and deals damage to that cluster. FFs are only good when used multiple times (often requiring multiple sentries). So infestor and FG are certainly viable options, and note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board.
As for Terrans... well, marauders do far more damage than sentries do (especially with stim), and they're cheaper, so marauders with concussive shells are certainly viable options as well.
Again, note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. Therefore, I don't think there will be any new Zerg or Terran spell that literally is a forcefield. Concussive shells and fungal growth are close though, especially in the "remove micro" department.
On March 22 2011 01:19 Marcus420 wrote: Has anyone considered FF as an upgrade at the cyber core? i would make it a fairly cheap upgrade (50/50?)and fairly short duration to get it up. So in instances that you FE, you get FF's instead of really early warpgates. You will also have not as many units when you get warpgates finally up(after FFs) so it would nerf 4gates and 3 gates pretty hard. Unless you want to do a 4 gate without FFs. idk.
im not a pro by any means but maybe it should be considered!
Protoss would lose to a fast roach rush or marauder push, which was the initial defense necessity for getting out a sentry super early (to FF the Protoss's own ramp, to buy time to get out more units).
Why are so many people convinced forcefields contributed so definitively to July's loss? The meta game was a 4-gate which July wasn't prepared for because he didn't scout the 4th gate, and he didn't see the expo got cancelled. One of the other games MC went for DTs and did some pretty substantial damage with those. On Shakuras, sure he did cast forcefield at some point in the match - but there was an extended period of time where he was mainly relying on blink micro to keep his stalkers from being destroyed. It isn't as though every game MC built mass sentries and FFed his way to victory... and if there truly was no way for zerg to beat gateway units with FF placement - why would MC have wasted money on blink/DTs? Why would MC have opened Stargate against Ciara on Tal'Darim altar, or pushed with only zealots and stalkers on Meta, if FFs were so good that he'd auto-win if he made sentries?
Lots of reasons for all of this. First of all force fields aren't "auto win", they are extremely powerful but they also take a high amount of skill to abuse. This is a problem (unfair, imbalanced) because zerg does not have anything close to the same skill ceiling it can abuse. This leaves zerg in a situation of "I hope he isn't godly with his FF", with no skill ceiling of his own to abuse and counter act the FF fields. Burrow is an option but this is a timing window not a skill to abuse, and thus it is very limited. Once observers are out burrow will not due much, and there is no way for zerg to just micro his ass off to make burrow more effective. It just works or doesn't work based on timing, while FF scales with how many sentries you have and more importantly how good you are at placing them.
FF add depth to the game by adding a skill set for protoss to use to get him out of situations and to turn situations into a lead, but they only add depth to one side of the match up.
They actually reduce depth for the zerg side, where the zerg's range of options is dictated and reduced by the protoss range of options. Completely imbalanced in this way, it is toss's game to lose. All zerg can do is play well while hoping to get lucky.
Why are so many people convinced forcefields contributed so definitively to July's loss? The meta game was a 4-gate which July wasn't prepared for because he didn't scout the 4th gate, and he didn't see the expo got cancelled. One of the other games MC went for DTs and did some pretty substantial damage with those. On Shakuras, sure he did cast forcefield at some point in the match - but there was an extended period of time where he was mainly relying on blink micro to keep his stalkers from being destroyed. It isn't as though every game MC built mass sentries and FFed his way to victory... and if there truly was no way for zerg to beat gateway units with FF placement - why would MC have wasted money on blink/DTs? Why would MC have opened Stargate against Ciara on Tal'Darim altar, or pushed with only zealots and stalkers on Meta, if FFs were so good that he'd auto-win if he made sentries?
Lots of reasons for all of this. First of all force fields aren't "auto win", they are extremely powerful but they also take a high amount of skill to abuse. This is a problem (unfair, imbalanced) because zerg does not have anything close to the same skill ceiling it can abuse. This leaves zerg in a situation of "I hope he isn't godly with his FF", with no skill ceiling of his own to abuse and counter act the FF fields. Burrow is an option but this is a timing window not a skill to abuse, and thus it is very limited. Once observers are out burrow will not due much, and there is no way for zerg to just micro his ass off to make burrow more effective. It just works or doesn't work based on timing, while FF scales with how many sentries you have and more importantly how good you are at placing them.
FF add depth to the game by adding a skill set for protoss to use to get him out of situations and to turn situations into a lead, but they only add depth to one side of the match up.
They actually reduce depth for the zerg side, where the zerg's range of options is dictated and reduced by the protoss range of options. Completely imbalanced in this way, it is toss's game to lose. All zerg can do is play well while hoping to get lucky.
The idea of a game being decided on an ability, and your opponent to use that ability well doesn't particularly sit well with me. If my opponent fails at using FF, my chances of winning increase, but if he can FF like a boss, my chances of winning decrease.
Terran can control space with tanks and vikings, but you can easily walk up and snipe those or deal with them in different ways. Sentries, when snuggled in their ball of doom, are signifigantly harder to deal with, especially when you can FF to protect them, bunch/seperate units into clumps, then vape them all with Colossi.
It's an extremely POWERFUL ability, when used right, and to have games decided by P's FF micro is very very odd.
Part of me screams imbalance, though, realistically, there are no real imbalances, only problems to be solved, and the current solutions are kinda hard to consitantly fight with (burrow negated by obs).
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
On March 22 2011 00:22 GenZai wrote: some solution to nerf FF. i'll give 3proposition that can be independent or stackable. 1/ give them HP. so you can micro your way out by focusing the FF that is blocking your units 2/ give a dispel ability to units such as the infestor or ghost. or a new units in HoS. this involve micro to dispel the FF. 3/ the FF should not be casted OVER the head of units. it means you should cast your spell before any unit enter the casting zone. this way you could hold position a unit on your ramp so that the P can block your reinforcement to come protect your b2 and then freekill your b2 and runaway while all your units are blockes in your main.
I actually think making FFs have HP is a great idea.
I agree, and have thought this for a while. You could even have armor/shield upgrades effect Force Fields, or have a separate upgrade for FF HP. In some sense, it wouldn't even be much of a nerf. If the enemy is set on destroying one forcefield, and you're able to keep replacing it, then youre negating a portion of damage from their army. It would also make for some fun micro situations and seems more fair and balanced overall. Finding the exact value for how strong a Force Field should be, however, is another matter.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
On March 22 2011 00:57 dvide wrote: I'd like to see forcefields be a projectile. So sentries fire a missile that when reaches its target it pops down a forcefield there. It can be relatively fast moving, but that way you'd have some ability to react to your enemy and back-up to prevent your army from being cut in half. Especially as zerg with fast moving units. Baiting forcefields would be more possible by feigning attacks and backing up quickly. Forcefields would require a lot more skill in general to use, but they will still be just as powerful as they are now if they land correctly.
Also I liked the fungal growth missile
If FF becomes a missile, then the first FF placed in the game (at the Protoss's own ramp, as defense against an early roach or marauder bust) would be easily confounded by the opponent. The Protoss needs to perfectly split the opponent's army.
That's true, it would make early forcefield defence harder. But with the relatively fast speed of the projectile I'm imagining combined with the speed of slow roaches off creep (or non-stim marauders), I'm not convinced it will be an issue. Mostly when you get speed upgrades and are on creep will you be able to feign engagements and back up before you get half your army trapped.
I know baiting is still possible but it's very predictive rather than reactive. Add those two together and it would make it slightly easier on other players to force drain some of the sentry's energy. I'm not even approaching this from balance perspective. I'd just like to see more skill based micro and spell usage in general and then maybe compensate for whatever balance changes are needed to facilitate it.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
On March 22 2011 01:13 Treemonkeys wrote: So people have been saying awhile now that colossus is "too" powerful but it has to be because otherwise toss gateway units are terrible. MC has completely disproved this, with solid FF usage zealot/stalker/sentry cannot only go toe to toe but completely rape roach/hydra. So toss no longer needs to even get colossus tech to counter zerg ground.
The "MC doughnut" is just fucked stupid. Nice that he is that good, but stupid that this skill ceiling is only available to one side. Boring to watch and boring to play against. I hate to say it but I'm getting sick of watching this game, it is too one sided.
He didn't disprove anything, he thoroughly outplayed his opponents. MC has shown himself to be just plain BETTER at the game right now than his opponents.
I mean, Ciara threw over 20 speedlings at 5 zealots and a couple stalkers and didn't get a single kill due to the difference in their micro skills (in a reasonably open area too >_>)
You can't draw conclusions about imbalance without eliminating other variables, and rather than eliminate the variable in skill in these games, most people are just choosing to ignore it.
On March 22 2011 01:13 Treemonkeys wrote: So people have been saying awhile now that colossus is "too" powerful but it has to be because otherwise toss gateway units are terrible. MC has completely disproved this, with solid FF usage zealot/stalker/sentry cannot only go toe to toe but completely rape roach/hydra. So toss no longer needs to even get colossus tech to counter zerg ground.
The "MC doughnut" is just fucked stupid. Nice that he is that good, but stupid that this skill ceiling is only available to one side. Boring to watch and boring to play against. I hate to say it but I'm getting sick of watching this game, it is too one sided.
He didn't disprove anything, he thoroughly outplayed his opponents. MC has shown himself to be just plain BETTER at the game right now than his opponents.
I mean, Ciara threw over 20 speedlings at 5 zealots and a couple stalkers and didn't get a single kill due to the difference in their micro skills (in a reasonably open area too >_>)
You can't draw conclusions about imbalance without eliminating other variables, and rather than eliminate the variable in skill in these games, most people are just choosing to ignore it.
Zerg has no option to outplay someone of MCs caliber. To outplay MC, you have to combine correct guesses with good spawn positions.
He also proved you can steamroll a GSL finals level zerg without ever building a colossus.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
Problem solving is at the heart of any RTS. Most of the people I find that cry IMBA are players that don't think outside the box. We have tools at our disposal for working around FF's, O-Lord drops, Nydus play, multi-pronged attacks against the slow deathball, but nobody seems to take advantage of Zergs Speed and Mobility compared to the slower, clumped up, and thus, more powerful T and P armies.
This is where I arrived at my statement. If you give enough though about a problem, you can find ways to either circumvent it completley, or deal with it in an efficiant manner.
Also, I'm not saying the above solutions are efficiant. I'm saying they are SOLUTIONS that, if worked into a playstyle or build properly, could be used to gain an advantage.
Remember that Zerg is not designed to take an army head on. They are the masters of gurilla warfare, and should be used as such. The Swarm mentality of just 1a'ing forces into a DeathBall with Sentry support is silly.
And yes, I also acknowledge that early, solid FF use is hard to combat before any of the aforementioned solutions are useable. Again, we have the fastest units in the game for a reason.
Yeah, so we can watch the FF glitch out animation faster than anyone else, fast units are nice. None of your solutions are actually solutions. They are just options zerg can utilize in his quest to win the guessing game.
Applying problem solving to the game as a whole is fun and all, you can look at a wide range of games and see ways to win.
However in the reality of a single game, you are left trying a solve a problem when you don't even know what the problem will be.
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
Did he even lose a single unit? It's cool if the game has micro abilities that require high skill but it's not cool when the opponent can't affect it much
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
1. IdrA should have been harrassing Minigun's base with those slings, not attacking into colossi. 2. Minigun used colossi + storm + FF play, not just FFs. 3. No mutas? 4. No burrow?
I started watching sc:bw quite late, but hasn't that game had periods of time where some race dominates? Not that i would say protoss dominates in sc2 just yet, but let's say that happens. Maybe it'll just take a while to figure out how to beat it?
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
despite the fact that im glad idra actually tried to add some variability in his play the only one who knows why not researching the OL drop upgrade is himself
seriously this game is not a good contribution to the ff discussion - to deal with the forcefields you have the options to avoid it(muta), go over or under (roaches and droptech) or kill it (ultra) - none of those were used here (at this point i want to mention that im a zerg player)
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
1. IdrA should have been harrassing Minigun's base with those slings, not attacking into colossi. 2. Minigun used colossi + storm + FF play, not just FFs.
1. How exactly? He runs in, and gets shredded at the choke. If you watch it, minigun had his natural choke narrowed down to 1 hex with a zealot and a sentry in there and a cannon or 2 guarding. So Idra couldn't go into the natural. Only remaining option would be to take the third and it's cannon, but then minigun stands in Idra's choke, can keep Idra's forces out for a long enough time to take out the second or third hatch and then move on to the main with an even smaller choke to kill that off. 2. Yes, he used colossus and HT, too. In the largest battle, where the FFs were one decicive factor among others. Before he walked out with only gateway units and encircled himself after being surrounded and after that he had lost the colossi and morphed the HT into archons.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
Losira won against toss today, statement proved false.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
Losira won against toss today, statement proved false.
On March 22 2011 02:18 pezit wrote: I started watching sc:bw quite late, but hasn't that game had periods of time where some race dominates? Not that i would say protoss dominates in sc2 just yet, but let's say that happens. Maybe it'll just take a while to figure out how to beat it?
Indeed. Toss was considered underpowered against for a long long time until FE -> cors became standard and different timing pushes evolved. There has been periods where every race have dominated at separate times just because of popular strategies that were seemingly impossible to beat, but were figured out in the end. I don't think this is any exception.
The GSL finals is a horrible example if you want to prove FF's are imbalanced. July sat in his base most of the games just waiting for MC to come to him, which really isn't a good way to counter mass sentries. Hell, one game he even a-moved his army of clumped up roaches straight towards 11 sentries without it even being necessary. The one were his ramp was blocked could've probably been won if he proplerly read MC's strategy earlier and threw down some spines or ran around with lings on the field.
Zergs can't sit still in their base and wait around, they need to be active with baiting FF's away from their base, use some speedlings and stall. Effective flanking, splitting, and static defense all combat FF's when you really need to engage. Droning for too long is also a reason to why using FF on ramp is efficient - stop drones earlier and you won't be stuck on your ramp.
There's so many calls for nerfing in this thread, so few suggestion how to actually go against it. As always when someone of a high level uses something efficiently in a tournament, people go batshit insane about how imba things are. Was like that in BW, and it sure hasn't changed. Thought most complaints about FF's died out around launch, but I'm not surprised it popped up again, like many other things will when the next trend starts. -_-;;
Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote: Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrassment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics.
Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use.
So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect.
You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics.
Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use.
So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect.
You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you.
No statistics do not prove anything when the game is this new and the majority of the statistics are low level players.
Zerg can win if they successfully pass the guessing game in the early game. Saying "zerg won here" therefore doesn't do anything to sway my argument. We would have to look at why they won, if they guessed correctly, or if they somehow didn't have to guess and just used a safe build.
Oh and there's nothing bold about my claims. Almost every pro zerg agrees they are weak (if not all). Almost every pro thought MC would win, many openly saying "MC will win, he's protoss".
I feel the only problem with removing force fields or changing them, is quite a signifigant one. Gateway units are hard countered by roaches and mnm, fundamental game flaw that the only answer too is the sentry and forcefields.
On March 22 2011 03:04 Phayze wrote: I feel the only problem with removing force fields or changing them, is quite a signifigant one. Gateway units are hard countered by roaches and mnm, fundamental game flaw that the only answer too is the sentry and forcefields.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now.
I don't understand two things about your comment: 1. Why you would say that you don't care about statistics from actual games (the only practical data relevant to this argument). 2. Why you think you can legitimately back up your opinion by saying "everyone knows Zerg is extremely weak in zvp right now".
Neither of those things make sense. "Everyone knows Treemonkeys is the most useless person ever to post on TL". Sorry, man, everyone knows it, it's true.
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics.
Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use.
So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect.
You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you.
No statistics do not prove anything when the game is this new and the majority of the statistics are low level players.
Zerg can win if they successfully pass the guessing game in the early game. Saying "zerg won here" therefore doesn't do anything to sway my argument. We would have to look at why they won, if they guessed correctly, or if they somehow didn't have to guess and just used a safe build.
Oh and there's nothing bold about my claims. Almost every pro zerg agrees they are weak (if not all). Almost every pro thought MC would win, many openly saying "MC will win, he's protoss".
lol two or three people said that (and one was IdrA, iirc), and the rest said MC would win because he's been playing far better than July has. And if you look at their paths to the GSL Finals, you'd see that MC completely dominated everyone and everything because he's MC, and July (while playing well overall) did not have as easy a time. MC completely outplayed July in all aspects of the game, not just because he used FFs. His strategies and mechanics were far superior.
And at the highest levels, it's relatively balanced too. The statistics show that. They've been broken down by leagues as well. So thinking that bronze and silver players are throwing off the statistics of the best gamers is incorrect. I'm actually quite surprised that you're so eager to ignore the facts and still stick with your opinion. Do realize that your stubbornness won't help your argument though. You'll need actual evidence.
But I don't think we're getting anywhere, so I don't see a reason to continue our discussion. I certainly don't want it to escalate for either of us. Enjoy your day.
FF is not broken in TvP, but I agree that it is broken in TvZ. By the time toss has enough to constantly FF, terrans should be able to have a medvac by then, or thors i guess. so its fine. but vs TvZ, as we saw MC vs July, (even though no one really expected July to win...) FF become impossible. the timings on those pushes make it nearly impossible for zergs to do anything. I think one of the ways to fix it would be to count queens as a massive unit. They're slow, so it takes time to walk to ramp, if zerg wants to prevent it, they can spread creep/place queen on ramp just like stopping hellions.
or go further into making the FF as an upgrade in cybercore but i think that will most likely screw toss over. i do like the idea of sentry being able to cast 1 FF at a time. but still, if you have 2 sentries then, you can constantly stop zerg from getting out of ramp. only massive unit they have is ultra, which we all know, takes FOREVER to get to T3 as zerg compared to getting a thor or colossus.
and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game. lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo. its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE. 2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that. so you choose.
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote: There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple.
No.
Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage.
The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out.
Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch.
Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +
Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now.
I don't understand two things about your comment: 1. Why you would say that you don't care about statistics from actual games (the only practical data relevant to this argument). 2. Why you think you can legitimately back up your opinion by saying "everyone knows Zerg is extremely weak in zvp right now".
Neither of those things make sense. "Everyone knows Treemonkeys is the most useless person ever to post on TL". Sorry, man, everyone knows it, it's true.
Ok, so lets say the statistics say "ZvP, zerg wins 53%, toss wins 47%". What does this factually and absolutely prove? That over a history of games, zerg and toss won these percentages. That's it, nothing more and nothing less.
How many games did zerg 6pool? How many games did toss 4gate? How many times did zerg win in close positions? How many times did zerg lose in far positions? Ultimately - did zerg deserve to win where they won? Did toss deserve to win where they won?
Even more importantly:
Can zerg win without a little luck, a little bit of lucky scouting, or lucky build order guessing when lucky scouting doesn't come through?
I'm saying no. There are to many instant win moves vs. zerg that are far too difficult for zerg to scout, to they point that zerg has to either luckily scout them, or luckily prepare for them.
So zerg is in the dark too much and has to many game ending moves to worry about, to the point where it is just a guessing game for them and unfair/imbalanced.
So for a moment, assume my argument is correct and run with it: what are statistics going to show? That zerg is winning sometimes and losing sometimes, which we already know. The statistics can't possibly make an argument as to how "fair" scouting options and game ending moves are for zerg, they will only show you they result of the guessing game.
On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote: and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game. lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo. its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE. 2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that. so you choose.
Yeah this goes back into scouting problems.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
I have looked trough 5 pages in this thread but I have not found a solution, to my liking, to the problem (if there is a solution or a problem). My take on it: Make FF require more skill, by either
a, adding cast time delay for each FF by approx. 1 sec or b, require FF to be casted on a empty space ( a FF does not count as empty space)
A) By changing the cast time and adding a delay it would require the protoss to be more observant of enemy movement and more susceptible to flanking. B) The protoss would have to use the FF precisely to minimize gaps (between FFs), unable to put FF on top of each-other (would require timing at ramps or used pre-emptively) and more susceptible to flanking ( especially speedlings as they could reach the protoss army really fast and the inability of sentrys put a FF on top of units)
As the situation stands now, it is possible for the protoss army to use FFs even when they are taken by surprise and still come out victorious in a battle. Are these ideas worth considering? (apologies and support to those who already posted ideas similar to these two)
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote: and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game. lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo. its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE. 2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that. so you choose.
Yeah this goes back into scouting problems.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
Actually, Zerg wins in all those positions, because Protoss doesn't have a robo to get observers.
Keep in mind that Zerg can actually be aggressive, or that Protoss (or Terran) may have to actually be responsive to what a Zerg does. (Another case in point: mutalisks.) Protoss won't be throwing up more than a cannon or two at the natural, which means that burrow move will be insanely strong once those cannons get popped (or avoided).
I don't think you're considering all possibilities for Zerg. I don't know if that's on purpose or not, but you shouldn't be so quick to say, "Zerg auto-loses if Protoss does X." Instead, you should be asking yourself (or others on TL): What would be a good response to X? Try things out. Then try more things out. Day[9] just did a Daily on this exact thing last night (how to counter builds, although he did it against a 4gate).
And in general, constant harrassment and aggression from Zerg players has been a very valuable asset against Protoss players and Terran players, because Zerg has far better mobility. A mutalisk harrass here, a speedling runby there... a doom drop in this other place... a nydus worm behind the smoke... that's how Zerg can really kick some ass (or at least keep P and T in their bases while Z powers up).
It already looks huge on screen, give it the ability to walk through ffs. Toss can still slow down reinforcements by ff the top and bottom or ramp alternatively, but it won't be such an instant win against zerg without roach burrow+move.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
good FFs prevent micro from anyone no matter how good, the onus is completely on the forcefielder. Its hard to empirically prove imbalance, but from the feel of it as a protoss it feels like I've beat a lot of zergs who are way better than me, making far less mistakes than me
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote: There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
I was tossing ideas around in my head, but found that any energy manipulation interacted too much with the other 2 sentry abilities. This idea however accomplishes a lot of the goals we're looking for, but still leaves blocking the ramp nearly indefinitely in a mid-game push extremely strong vs a zerg.
I would say make spine and spore crawlers also crush forcefields (simply making them massive may unablance VRs vs them, but it could be fine) This on top of the 1 forcefield per sentry would allow zerg a better chance at defending those mid-game pushes, as well as an additional benefit to having creep spread.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
If that happens, there will officially be no reason to play as protoss.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
not to mention you can make mistakes while throwing ffs. I mean I throw down bad ffs all the time (put 3 when i could have had 2, throw one in a stupid spot by accident etc.) that doesn't really matter when any time I move out I'm gonna have at least 10 ffs
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
Then you are truly playing as skilled player vs skilled player, instead of one race vs a different race.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
EMP and feedback are as useful for zerg to deal with FF as your other suggestions.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
If that happens, there will officially be no reason to play as protoss.
except for, you know, the fact that something being changed doesn't make it useless... stop crying that the sky is falling at every single nerf, it's getting as tiring as zergs below pro level whining about game balance being the main reason they don't win.
Sweet theorycrafting / balance discussion we got going on here.
Seriously, I don't know if there's an answer to this 'problem' people are putting forward. I would stop tossing around ideas of how awesome things could be and instead talk about techniques to mitigate such use of forcefields.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent.
If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
EMP and feedback are as useful for zerg to deal with FF as your other suggestions.
Does the thread title contain the words "Advice for Zerg Only: Dealing with FF" in it? No. Not everyone on these boards plays zerg. Sometimes terran and *gasp* other toss have trouble against it too.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
They'll probably look at sentries the same way they looked at marines after MKP won the GSL. I honestly can't think of a way to paralyze protoss more than by messing with FF. Not to mention that most of the bitching in this thread is related to not being able to scout what they're supposed to be reacting to (not the lack of a reaction itself) - which is an issue with the game in general and completely unrelated to forcefields.
If I had to guess based on past trends, I'd imagine they'll nerf Colossi, Forcefields and blink before they say "hey wait - maybe these rush builds would be easier to defend against if you had some clue what your opponent is doing, huh?" I just hope that in the midst of any considerations they make, they consider Terran, whose all-in scv rushes against toss have only just recently started being defended on a regular basis, and largely due to FF use.
BTW - if you're looking to make it less good in PvZ and not hurt it in PvT, make it a cooldown ability instead of being energy-based. Early ghosts can almost negate a lot of sentry play if you aren't really, really careful.
On March 22 2011 04:14 Rob28 wrote: If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
And that is exactly why we rarely see nydus play yet we see sentry play all the freakin time - zergs just aren't doing a good job of adapting while protoss did such a good job adapting to nydus!
It has nothing to do with sentry being a far more powerful option overall.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent.
If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
While I agree that we should spend more time finding out how to deal with it rather than QQing about it, Comparing FF to a Nydus is silly. If I could just scout my base and stop FF's then I'd not be so frustrated with them.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote: People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out.
which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game.
If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent.
If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
Counter to nydus: having pylons spread around base to grant vision + ability to warp in, warp in 2-3 zealots (depending on your reaction time) nydus countered. I don't see the parallel you're trying to make here at all...
It's kinda like what you're saying is "do the near impossible to counter my shift-f spam clicking" That isn't entirely fair I admit, but it feels like, at the pro level, a player going against FF has to spend a LOT more effort to simply survive the forcefields then the P player has to put into placing them. For example, what exactly is the counter to a forcefielded ramp as zerg? The on-paper counters are as follows: Have your army already on the correct side of it Have ultralisks Have broodlords Having burrow and burrow movement, and roaches
Mutas are not a counter, because if the protoss force can be killed with your mutas without ground support, you should have won just after he pushed out.
To be fair, back in beta, Zerg won a lot of games with Nydus before Terran/Protoss learned to put pylons/supply depots around their base. In that regard, Protoss "did" react to Nydus play.
Likewise, back before the 6-gate timing was known, Zerg won a lot of games with mass Mutalisks. However, reacting to that by learning the 6-gate timing gave Protoss the edge once more in the matchup.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
There's less than ideal and there's so terrible your units cannot even move. This is honestly killing my interest in the pro scene.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
If you think relying on chokes as an advantage when you are playing zerg is wise, then you clearly don't understand the concept of a "surround" or a "concave"... both of which are always hampered by chokes, and both of which are critical to effective zerg agression. Stop looking for a reason to QQ because it's there, and just learn to deal with the fact that the game isn't played on an expansive open field where all races are exactly the same. This isn't Warcraft 2.
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
Yeah well that sucks for you... I guess. I watch the pro scene and they find ways to avoid getting completely screwed by 1 ability. It's not an all of a sudden thing, you have to work the whole game to avoid it. There's less than ideal and there's so terrible your units cannot even move. This is honestly killing my interest in the pro scene.
On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote: What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
If it becomes no longer viable to fast expand as Z because people learn how to use forcefield well, you can expect a lot of 1 base roach all-ins.....
Oh, wait, you can forcefield your ramp to defend against that anyways.....
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
If it becomes no longer viable to fast expand as Z because people learn how to use forcefield well, you can expect a lot of 1 base roach all-ins.....
Oh, wait, you can forcefield your ramp to defend against that anyways.....
Nvm, 7 pool it is.
You'll have 1 forcefield when 7 roach push hits... That won't do you any good for long, if you keep making sentries then you won't have a strong army that can kill roach when they finally break in.
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
On March 22 2011 04:57 Treemonkeys wrote: Which is why you FF while waiting for the immortal to build, no?
Yeah that won't work out well, you need stalkers to kill off the roaches otherwise they will kill your core/ gateway with their overlord spotting the cliff.
On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote: I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Nerf forcefield in exchange for no 6 pools? Deal...
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
FF only defense against 6 / 7 pool? what the hell are you talking about? Against a 6/7pool you won't ever get 150 minerals for a cyber and building time to build a weak sentry. Forget that.
We can talk about a FF nerf if Gateway units receive a Buff. You're able to survive every early rushes if you chronoboost out your Gateway units off of 1 Gateway.
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
On March 22 2011 01:10 andrewlt wrote: I'd like to see other races get spells as powerful as FF instead of nerfing FF. The last thing SC2 needs right now is another nerf to another skill-discriminating ability. By skill discriminating, I mean an ability that changes a lot depending on the skill of the user. The last thing protoss needs right now is another incentive to go colossus.
Agreed. When you say "as powerful as" FF, are you referring to spells that remove the ability to micro? Because Zerg has fungal growth and Terran has concussive shells.
Now granted, infestors are far less common (and harder to tech to, in general), than sentries. However, a single FG is far more powerful than a single FF, as the former freezes units and deals damage to that cluster. FFs are only good when used multiple times (often requiring multiple sentries). So infestor and FG are certainly viable options, and note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board.
As for Terrans... well, marauders do far more damage than sentries do (especially with stim), and they're cheaper, so marauders with concussive shells are certainly viable options as well.
Again, note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. Therefore, I don't think there will be any new Zerg or Terran spell that literally is a forcefield. Concussive shells and fungal growth are close though, especially in the "remove micro" department.
No, I'm referring to any active abilities, period. BW has tons of active abilities that do different things but are balanced in the end. It doesn't have to be a forcefield. Dark swarm/plague vs storms in BW were different but they did the job.
A passive ability like the marauder's certainly isn't it. The prevalence of powerful passive abilities in SC2 does nothing except decrease enjoyment in watching pro games.
On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote: [quote] its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
I havent read all of the post so im sorry if this suggestion has come up before.
From what I've read people have been discussion the reduced time on forcefields and more consumtion of energy on sentries when used.
How about adding HP to forcefields instead? To take them down you will need to target them invidually and not just A attack them. The timer of forcefields will ofcourse stay but by attacking them down you can get them down much faster and to make this fair for Protoss, Zerg has to either focus on taking the forcefields down and getting damaged during it or try to survive with forcefields around while trying to engage the protoss army in the best position avaliable.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
Are you brain dead?
Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to)
Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
Are you brain dead?
Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to)
Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post
Yeah, and I said "That's not a good reason to nerf something". And you said you never gave a reason, but clearly you're using my statement as a reason. look wahtever, I'm not getting into an argument about semantics.
Final statement I'm going to make here: If you can't deal with forcefields, that's tough shit for you. Forcefields aren't some magic superweapon that guarantee a win. If they were, we'd have 100% protoss win-rate. It takes skill to use them, and skill to fight them. That's what good pro-level sc2 is about... skill. FFs are as much as aspect of the protoss army now as zealots. Deal with it, and stop QQing over something that isn't as uber-powerful as everyone seems to be making it out to be.
It doesn't need a nerf. Toss have been nerfed enough since the beta, thanks.
imo just reduce the casting range of the sentry, this turns the battle into ways where if he wants to use the ff offensively, his sentries will be in front more for more easy picking. This will still not change the defensive capabilities of FF as well. You can still FF and back away. I really believe the real problem lies with the casting range of the FF able to be casted in a safe distance without having penalties of using it offensively.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback.
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that.
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes?
Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass.
How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent.
Is it fun to comment on balance when you don't play? A 6 pool hits before the cyber-core is even started
This match actually contributes alot to the discussion. You will see how versatile force fields are and that you don't have to be MC to roflstomp a zerg with them. Minigun absolutely demolishes Idra. I really liked the FF usage, but I really have to wonder if it's OK for a T1.5 caster to be that much of a force multiplier.
For you that don't want to watch (though I can recommend it), this match had: - Ramp blockage on defense and offense - Trapping ~15 speedlings in a 2/3 circle of forcefields to be picked off by the sentries and 2 stalkers - Protecting against an onslaught of banelings rushing in from 2 sides, eventually creating a full circle around the protoss ranged forces - Negating one complete flank while the other was blanketed in storm - Funneling a ton of ling/bling into 2 archons, while the rest of the army was killing the natural and FF blocked reinforcements from the main.
Then again.. minigun is the god of protoss and Idra a scrub that deserves to get manhandled... (now is that sarcasm? I wonder myself...)
And while everyone is throwing around solutions, how about this: If you cast a forcefield and it would overlap with an existing forcefield, then it's simply not casted.
IdrA said there are no good NA Zerg....
Tunneling, Burrow..roach would have destroyed that ball (among other things)
ok peeps. like i said before, just make queens massive it solves the problem of blocking the ramp. while, P can still use FF as a means of defense in their own base, cuz no one will try to move queen all the way across the map with the chance of getting it sniped. problem solved.
plus there was just way too many things that July couldve done better. MC was just a more solid player.
On March 22 2011 06:48 ReDeSCh wrote: ok peeps. like i said before, just make queens massive it solves the problem of blocking the ramp. while, P can still use FF as a means of defense in their own base, cuz no one will try to move queen all the way across the map with the chance of getting it sniped. problem solved.
plus there was just way too many things that July couldve done better. MC was just a more solid player.
While I like the pretty cool idea of queens breaking FFs, this would make queens unliftable by phoenix and very vulnerable to void rays.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
My thoughts exactly, either way I think you end up behind. You need spinecrawlers to be able to hold off some of these pushes, especially if they get +1, and guess what they're at your natural. Perfect FF destroy zerg, decent FF make it difficult for zerg.
The crux of the issue is that sentries come too early and overlord speed, drops, burrow, burrow movement, hydralisks, and overseers come too late. You can't scout it well enough and the solid counters for it come way too late.
The problem is that if you build enough spine crawlers and roaches and he isn't going for it, you're behind. If he is going for it and you can't scout it, which you can't against any good protoss, you die.
My solution is not a nerf to the sentry, but instead move overlord speed to hatch tech. That way you can reliably scout what he is going for for a reasonable cost. You could also keep more overlords alive if he is going for a stalker heavy push or a void ray push instead making those all in plays a little easier to deal with.
This way zerg gets to stay alive a bit easier in the early game without making them anymore aggressive(in fact they're less aggressive because that 100 gas and minerals could be 4 more banelings or most of 4 more roaches) and their lair tech is delayed a little bit as well to balance out the fact that they'll more likely get to it in a better position.
Why the fuck was Stallonezone banned for his comment. It was a spolier, and this is beaten to death.
Good post, I've just seen the same thing about 100 times.
EDIT: Just to add something positive, I really enjoyed the idea to make the forcefield cost more enrgy and have them spawn with enough energy to pop a sheild.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
This, and/or forcefield gets cancelled if you unburrow under it ?
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
That's why you scout better. You'll find that the top end players are always running lings up the ramp to see what they can, sacrificing overlords when possible, and keeping lings outside the front to see the forces pushing out. You have speed, you should be running lings all over the place checking for proxy pylons and watching movement paths. The faster you detect a push, the faster you can react to it, giving you more time.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
This, and/or forcefield gets cancelled if you unburrow under it ?
That really wouldnt make much sense, I mean... there's a reason thats not there. You couldn't just dig a hole under a 40 foot concrete barrier and pop up under it. Now, you could go past, so maybe give roaches the ability to crawl underneath and pop up under the army.
On March 22 2011 07:00 Whitewing wrote: Force fields are not overpowered.
They do not need to be changed, and zerg does not need more or better ways to deal with it. Zerg could use some small buffs in other areas, but not with regards to forcefields.
People need to start thinking about defeating tactics and strategies by preventing them from working properly rather than reacting after they're in effect. Worried about the toss force fielding your own ramp so your units in your main can't reinforce? Don't let the toss units reach your natural with energy on the sentries by engaging away from your base.
Be pro-active.
Engaging with what? You can barely get a big enough army in time without cutting so many drones that you're behind.
That's why you scout better. You'll find that the top end players are always running lings up the ramp to see what they can, sacrificing overlords when possible, and keeping lings outside the front to see the forces pushing out. You have speed, you should be running lings all over the place checking for proxy pylons and watching movement paths. The faster you detect a push, the faster you can react to it, giving you more time.
No, I mean that in order to defend a 4gate you have to drone before making units or else you have far less workers than the protoss and you're behind before any attack even arrives, and the units you get to defend come out too late to be proactive.
Also, any zerg who wants to get out of gold league will use a ling at the front and control watchtowers - and you can't make a sacrificial overlord go any farther before dying just because you're a better player.
On March 22 2011 05:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: don't know how big people are on punishing a player for mistakes... but what if casting a ff over another ff destroys them both?
this allows you to still block ramps, separate armies and everything but a badly placed ff or mistimed ff can cost you big.
It shouldnt destroy them both, but if two FF's overlap to much then the old one getting destroyed would be a good idea, if for nothing else then to make more precision and decision into the FF spam.
On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote: and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game. lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo. its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE. 2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that. so you choose.
Yeah this goes back into scouting problems.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
How about Zerg just gets burrow and prepares burrowed Zerglings and Roaches for the Protoss push?
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote: Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.)
The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!
Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
No, 2 base protoss 6gate timing push is designed specifically to counter muta build, if it is done well, it comes to your gate before your mutas arrive. Every zerg knows that you need to scout the protoss between 5 & 6 min, because that's the moment where he commit to something. You don't have overlord speed nor muta at 6min.
Who said anything about mutalisks? Mutalisks take two minutes longer to get than Overseers, which are a fast enough flying unit to scout the Protoss base.
And I contest the need for Zerg to scout Protoss in that window. You don't need to see what your one-base opponent is doing inside his base if you can block every one-base push anyhow.
Zerg players 'know' they need to scout the Protoss between 5 and 6 minutes because they don't build Queens.
On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote: @Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
Zerg can negate the one-base aggression builds without knowing which one is coming, provided the Zerg knows that timing at which each build CAN show up. And Zerg can afford to do so because Protoss is on one base. Once Protoss goes to two bases, Zerg can easily saturate his natural long before the Protoss, and start thinking about a third.
Warp Prism or Blink Stalker plays could be an issue since they skip over a defensive line - those might be more map-dependent. But they're also slower to hit the table, and vulnerable to Zerglings.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
.
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
Are you brain dead?
Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to)
Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post
Yeah, and I said "That's not a good reason to nerf something". And you said you never gave a reason, but clearly you're using my statement as a reason. look wahtever, I'm not getting into an argument about semantics.
Final statement I'm going to make here: If you can't deal with forcefields, that's tough shit for you. Forcefields aren't some magic superweapon that guarantee a win. If they were, we'd have 100% protoss win-rate. It takes skill to use them, and skill to fight them. That's what good pro-level sc2 is about... skill. FFs are as much as aspect of the protoss army now as zealots. Deal with it, and stop QQing over something that isn't as uber-powerful as everyone seems to be making it out to be.
It doesn't need a nerf. Toss have been nerfed enough since the beta, thanks.
ha. i agree dont nerf nor buff stuff. do something like they did with void rays. change the mechanics of a unit to better the game. nerfing or buffing only leads to more problems. and yes, FF takes skills. but we are taking about high level gameplay here. at high levels, toss players know how to set FF well. and that destroys zerg. its a strong early tech. because the high level players know how to use FF, it ruins the game. its a skill cap. you know how to use FF well, and you instantly win vs Z. this is why this topic started. not cuz some bronze league player wants to QQ about them losing to probably one damn forcefield.
i know sentrys have pretty low dps all ready. but i think it should be lowerd a little bit more. so that they are pretty much strictly a spell caster. like infestors.
"Competitive gamer" 10 years ago: - "Guys, I found a new overbounce on pro-q3dmXXX" - "Yay, I can finally do this fancy jump backwards" - "FUCKING OWNED"
On March 22 2011 17:40 MolestedRabbit wrote: "Competitive gamer" 10 years ago: - "Guys, I found a new overbounce on pro-q3dmXXX" - "Yay, I can finally do this fancy jump backwards" - "FUCKING OWNED"
"Newfags, newfags everywhere." just about sums it up.
It's quite sad how everything has degenerated into this.
When I started out with online gaming way back in the day the general mindset of just about everyone was "be the underdog, face better opponents or stronger tactics and you'll become better faster. If you lose, it's because of yourself. There is no bad tactic or play"
I would like to see how the game would play out if both the duration and energy cost of force field was drastically reduced. Say half or even 1/4 of the current duration and energy cost. You should be able to get the same amount of use from these force fields but it would require a lot more APM.
I love the spell and I love the fact that when used correctly it can completely turn the tide of a battle, but it definitely feels as though when someone has mastered the use of it (MC) it's very hard to find a way around it as the opponent.
I was thinking about this matter for the last 2 days and still agree on that it mostly affects PvZ. It takes away the dynamic of the game at some points. Especyaly the abbility to block a chocke and end the game at this point, because reinforcements are not comming to the fight. Everyone was thinking about how to fix the Forcefield and after thinking about it maybe its Zerg who need a fix, not the Sentry. What about giving the Roach or/and/ the Zerglings an upgrade on somewhere T2 to Jump down a cliff? I thought about it alot and even dreamed about it...This could make the game very interesting dynamic and also would give the Zerg surrounding abbilitys wich are so often needed and not given due to terrain.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Well P has to tech to either Hts or Collossi to deal with Terran T1. I don't see how it would be any worse. If Ultralisk Cavern only required lair then Ultras would be no later than Collossi.
On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote: I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Well P has to tech to either Hts or Collossi to deal with Terran T1. I don't see how it would be any worse. If Ultralisk Cavern only required lair then Ultras would be no later than Collossi.
Check how long it takes to tech to to ultra and how much they each cost combined with their viability compared to collosi. You can't just compare it like that.
On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote: Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
Burrow does not "nullify" force fields, nor does EMP. They simply provide zerg/terran armies with a chance to survive. You don't go on the offensive with burrow unless you have burrow, tunneling claws, and manage to avoid detectors. You don't aggressively emp as a preliminary measure unless you have identified a very specific target(which would have most likely cost you a scan or the life of a scout) and figured out a way to approach and disable it. This must be done with a single fragile bio unit that cost 150/150, has insufficient energy to emp on spawn, and requires precision/strategy to execute, before enemy spell casters use any their energy which can be spent in one second.
A lot of people also seem to forget that you can actually spread your spell casters apart to avoid being shut down by 1 emp, withdraw and relocate to a safer position until shields/energy recharge, kill ghosts with 1 feedback-50 energy-instant cast-instant kill, send an observer in front of your army to avoid bumping into ghosts on the way. Once you get close enough to engage, you can just throw forcefields in front of any ghosts and sit back while your colossi rip apart the remaining helpless infantry. Using EMP effectively is far more crucial/difficult than spamming forcefields/storms from within a shileded mass of high hp protoss units equipped with mobile long-range splash damage, and the ability to inexpensively place giant impassable bubbles for the entire duration of a battle.
You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: One possible solution- increase the energy requirement for using forcefields while at the same time raising the starting energy of the sentry. This would mean that a single sentry would still be enough to defend a rush while not having so much energy as to become overly useful later in the game. Only a thought.
exactly what my solution was when discussing the topic with someone. make it a 60/70/75 w/e spell and raise the starting energy to that. i would be completely cool with that.
On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote: Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
Burrow does not "nullify" force fields, nor does EMP. They simply provide zerg/terran armies with a chance to survive. You don't go on the offensive with burrow unless you have burrow, tunneling claws, and manage to avoid detectors. You don't aggressively emp as a preliminary measure unless you have identified a very specific target(which would have most likely cost you a scan or the life of a scout) and figured out a way to approach and disable it. This must be done with a single fragile bio unit that cost 150/150, has insufficient energy to emp on spawn, and requires precision/strategy to execute, before enemy spell casters use any their energy which can be spent in one second.
A lot of people also seem to forget that you can actually spread your spell casters apart to avoid being shut down by 1 emp, withdraw and relocate to a safer position until shields/energy recharge, kill ghosts with 1 feedback-50 energy-instant cast-instant kill, send an observer in front of your army to avoid bumping into ghosts on the way. Once you get close enough to engage, you can just throw forcefields in front of any ghosts and sit back while your colossi rip apart the remaining helpless infantry. Using EMP effectively is far more crucial/difficult than spamming forcefields/storms from within a shileded mass of high hp protoss units equipped with mobile long-range splash damage, and the ability to inexpensively place giant impassable bubbles for the entire duration of a battle.
You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
Please just shut up and use all of that energy to improve your obviously-pitiful existences.
Yeah, good luck getting anyone to remember your post for more than 5 seconds after writing it like that then adding a moronic comment at the end. Try again without the stupidity if you're interested in feedback?
FF are just very different from anything implemented into a SC game. This still makes them a difficult thing to adjust to. The fact that they make such an impact is not a reason to nerf or buff them. As it stands, the Protoss has had their early game nerfed so drastically that they need the FF.
I feel that this is one of those mechanics that Bliz implemented that is essential early game but "feels" broken late game. This is very similar IMO to the MULE. Early on it is very realistic but at 3 bases a terran can out mine a fully saturated expansion instantly. I think in both counts the only realistic approach would be duration or cooldown. FF from 15>10 seconds would be perfectly fine. But I am worried, because Blizz took the easy road with the amulet.
On March 23 2011 00:08 dlax wrote: FF are just very different from anything implemented into a SC game. This still makes them a difficult thing to adjust to. The fact that they make such an impact is not a reason to nerf or buff them. As it stands, the Protoss has had their early game nerfed so drastically that they need the FF.
I feel that this is one of those mechanics that Bliz implemented that is essential early game but "feels" broken late game. This is very similar IMO to the MULE. Early on it is very realistic but at 3 bases a terran can out mine a fully saturated expansion instantly. I think in both counts the only realistic approach would be duration or cooldown. FF from 15>10 seconds would be perfectly fine. But I am worried, because Blizz took the easy road with the amulet.
1.4 Patch note Force Field Ability removed I can see it now almost as much as I don't want to As much as I hate FF I think they make the game dynamic and fun to play. Hell can you imagine playing against a P as a T when the P has no FFs? it's gonna be so boring >.<
On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote: @Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
Zerg can negate the one-base aggression builds without knowing which one is coming, provided the Zerg knows that timing at which each build CAN show up. And Zerg can afford to do so because Protoss is on one base. Once Protoss goes to two bases, Zerg can easily saturate his natural long before the Protoss, and start thinking about a third.
This is simply untrue - to adequately defend against a 4gate, you are also making it so that you cannot win against an expansive build. Knowing the timing of the 4gate won't help you because you still need to be droning at that time instead of units, unless you know for sure that it IS a 4gate.
There isn't any sort of tech that gives you a large cost efficiency advantage (such as banelings against a 2rax) which allows you to cut corners - you need a lot of units, which can be read as less drones - drones you need against a 3gate expand. As for overlord scouting, it doesn't often get anywhere or see anything - you can't have your strategy depend on it.
On March 22 2011 23:45 KaiserGL wrote: You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
Please carry on and live a long and happy life
The amount of ignorance in this thread is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. Have you ever played a single game as protoss? IMO, and I'm sure I'm nowhere near alone, protoss macro is BY FAR the hardest out of the 3 races. You cannot build gateway units without looking at a power field - good luck doing that in the middle of a battle while microing.
On top of that, each time you chrono boost, you need to make a concious decision of what you're going to chrono boost, and then do it. This is hard to do instantly, and if you have say 10 gateways spread between 3 bases, and you want to chrono all of them, you have to physically go to the location of each and every one and click on them, a process that takes longer than you seem realize.
Try playing toss before you say it's easy mode - unless you're in bronze, IMO toss macro is the hardest of the 3 races due to the factors I mentioned. And I main zerg.
On March 23 2011 10:09 Blasterion wrote: Hydra SpineCrawlers are the Force Field Counter as IMLosira has shown as
:facepalm:
Have you played zerg? That is the counter to a VERY specific robo push.
This thread was started with regard to the games of July vs MC, with an EXTREMELY different attack, that came much, much sooner. If you try to build hydras for a 6 gate, the toss is going to lol all over you.
The correct counter to a 6 gate is speed burrow roaches. The correct counter to a robo push before colossi is hydra ling. Both implement FF, but require different counters. You can't make blanket statements like that "X pro did this, so it is the absolute counter, always". Did you ever consider that Losira is FAR, FAR better than his opponent? Because he is.
On March 22 2011 23:45 KaiserGL wrote: You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
Please carry on and live a long and happy life
The amount of ignorance in this thread is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. Have you ever played a single game as protoss? IMO, and I'm sure I'm nowhere near alone, protoss macro is BY FAR the hardest out of the 3 races. You cannot build gateway units without looking at a power field - good luck doing that in the middle of a battle while microing.
On top of that, each time you chrono boost, you need to make a concious decision of what you're going to chrono boost, and then do it. This is hard to do instantly, and if you have say 10 gateways spread between 3 bases, and you want to chrono all of them, you have to physically go to the location of each and every one and click on them, a process that takes longer than you seem realize.
Try playing toss before you say it's easy mode - unless you're in bronze, IMO toss macro is the hardest of the 3 races due to the factors I mentioned. And I main zerg.
On March 23 2011 10:09 Blasterion wrote: Hydra SpineCrawlers are the Force Field Counter as IMLosira has shown as
:facepalm:
Have you played zerg? That is the counter to a VERY specific robo push.
This thread was started with regard to the games of July vs MC, with an EXTREMELY different attack, that came much, much sooner. If you try to build hydras for a 6 gate, the toss is going to lol all over you.
The correct counter to a 6 gate is speed burrow roaches. The correct counter to a robo push before colossi is hydra ling. Both implement FF, but require different counters. You can't make blanket statements like that "X pro did this, so it is the absolute counter, always". Did you ever consider that Losira is FAR, FAR better than his opponent? Because he is.
Pylons provide supply, cost only 100 minerals, produce a warp field, and protoss buildings are warped in without the presence/loss of a worker; You can't really lose, no matter where you place it.
I'm not sure what prevents you from setting a hot key to a pylon that you warp units to, but every protoss building other than the nexus and assimilator requires a pylon nearby to power it so it shouldnt be hard to remember where they are.
Warping units near a pylon field is not only easy to pull off during any stage of the game, it's easier than setting a rally point and guiding your units safely to their location. In case you didn't know, pressing one of your hotkeys 2 times in a row brings you to the location of whatever you had set to the hot key. Maybe this will make it easier for you to find places to warp your units in. Army set to 1-2, Warp gates set to 4 or something, use 8, 9, and 0 for proxy pylons or expos. Maybe this is difficult for you, but I think its pretty easy to send my army somewhere, press 8/9/0 2 times in a row, press 4 once, and decide on my desired unit composition before pressing 1 twice in a row to go back to my army.
The time you lose on chrono boosting is nonexistant due to the fact that anything you chronoboost is completed faster. I don't whine about having to call down mules all game, failing to do so puts me at a disadvantage. Even if you forget to chronoboost while you're battling, it gives you a jump start on whatever u plan to do afterward. I kinda made a habit out of going back to my cc's every minute or so just to spend their energy, and I'd do the same with nexus to chrono boost/queen to spawn larva if I played z/p. Don't you?
Come on, choose your battles more wisely if you're going to flame me for "mind boggling" ignorance. Your response even supported my original post because your response was essentially the perfect example of the type of person I mentioned in the last paragraph or two. Try harder plz
On March 22 2011 19:09 CuirassEU wrote: I was thinking about this matter for the last 2 days and still agree on that it mostly affects PvZ. It takes away the dynamic of the game at some points. Especyaly the abbility to block a chocke and end the game at this point, because reinforcements are not comming to the fight. Everyone was thinking about how to fix the Forcefield and after thinking about it maybe its Zerg who need a fix, not the Sentry. What about giving the Roach or/and/ the Zerglings an upgrade on somewhere T2 to Jump down a cliff? I thought about it alot and even dreamed about it...This could make the game very interesting dynamic and also would give the Zerg surrounding abbilitys wich are so often needed and not given due to terrain.
I think that the problem can be fixed with some good surrounds and better use of control group hotkeys, which zergs are slowly but surely learning to do. Roaches without forcefields absolutely slaughter a protoss army that doesn't have any aoe, and even a small portion of the roaches that were originally fighting- with the rest cut off with force fields- can still do some serious damage if you're not careful. Yes some upgrades like that would be cool, but first of all it seriously changes the game and second of all you're gonna have to nerf them in some other way to even it out. Having roaches that can jump down cliffs would be like giving sentries armor, health, and a fair amount of DPS.
Forcefields are perfectly balanced, and necessary for the game.
However, when they reach a certain point, they go from balanced to just stupid. 10 sentries spamming it down to stasis a battlefield with no real way to actually break them is just too much. The problem is, I don't think it can be addressed without hurting them in the way they are balanced in small numbers.
On March 21 2011 02:49 w0chtulka. wrote: anything that would make forcefields breakable by small units will negate their purpose... also research is bad thing unsless the time is like 30 seconds...
Not if they have a proper amount of health. Especially if there was an upgrade available later on that made them unbreakable. This way early game they are still strong but CAN be broken, and late game when the DPS is much higher they will still be useful.
That is actually a very good idea to make them breakable at the start but with like 500 hp and some armor for stim rushes to not be so effective and the unbreakable upgrade being for example in twilight concil.
Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits better here. :-)
Simple change to forcefield:
I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay.
Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number.
On March 29 2011 00:33 SecondSandwich wrote: Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits better here. :-)
Simple change to forcefield:
I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay.
Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number.
Any input on this?
One of forcefields' most important roles is in defending the ramp against early aggression. Your change would be a massive buff to early game all-ins in every *vP matchup.
i think the way you fix them is by making it so units can't get stacked up and stuck in between them. it can work for and against the ff user at random times and takes away from the mechanic. sometimes you trap units you don't mean to trap and sometimes you push away units you don't want to push away. take the idra vs. cruncher game. idra had 5 roaches stacked on one another that could not move or attack... call it "skill" or w/e but that didn't seem very fair and i am a toss user O_O
If you watch forcefield spam closely, you'll notice that when units get stuck between forcefields, they don't attack anymore. They just sit there and twitch. If the stuck units actually attacked, I don't think we'd this thread would exist.
They stop the opponents ability to micro. I don't think this is a problem in itself, as long as it is something that can be avoided. Basically, it takes good micro to successfully use and successfully avoid forcefields. The impetus is on Protoss to gain an advantage. However, the opposing race does not gain an advantage from successfully avoiding being forcefielded. However, if sentries are seen as an investment (which they are) and a compromise between more powerful units (which they are), their failure to be utilized properly does put the Protoss at a disadvantage. the important question here is "does failure to utilize the investment of sentries put me at as much of a disadvantage as my opponent failing to properly avoid my forcefields."I think the answer to this question might very well be "no" in many circumstances.
Really? You miss forcefields in the early/mid game, you lose.
On March 29 2011 00:57 Sentient wrote: If you watch forcefield spam closely, you'll notice that when units get stuck between forcefields, they don't attack anymore. They just sit there and twitch. If the stuck units actually attacked, I don't think we'd this thread would exist.
they actually do attack if they are in range and not on move command. what happens a lot is a player will pull his units back once some are trapped and then in THAT case, the trapped unit will just spaz out and try to walk up a wall and not attack.
I think people are really over thinking the problem. It's not so much, imo, that FFs or sentries are a straight up problem. The issue is that P can mass sentries early on and let them build up energy. It's incredibly common to see 6-8 sentries made right off the bat vs Z. I think there needs to be a little more risk or investment involved if a P player wants to rely on sentries early on, even if it just means they need to drop cannons to be safe. I'd personally like to see a further nerf to sentry DPS and/or sentry HP. Put it like this. 1 Sentry has 72% of the HP of the equivalent population in marines and 75% of the DPS of the equivalent population in roaches as a caster with 2 very very strong spells.
So many times I was down like 40 food, but could chip away at his army to come back to win it thanks to mass sentry spamming lol. I stayed on T1 all the time.
I literally have no clue how to use P, except forcefields are sooooooo fun to use!
On March 29 2011 00:33 SecondSandwich wrote: Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits better here. :-)
Simple change to forcefield:
I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay.
Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number.
i still think increasing sentry supply or FF energy to 75 is key. Right now protoss if sentry who spams FF alot wins. When in doubt FF everything.
The problem with zergs is simple they are too greedy with drones. A zerg would rather be 8 drones ahead than 8 drones behind. But you cannot tell me that being even drones/probes is bad. Example if Idra would have already had 5 more roaches at there base. They could have done more.
Part of the problem is they came out to engage with an inferior force that was going to rely on there rally to sustain/hold off the attack. The protoss is able to stop this. So basically, they drone too much get to greedy and dont' make an army. They have a small army and die. Also by having this army they could have possibly baited the toss into using FF while traveling across the entire map instead of at there natural expansion.
so part of the problem is the amount of sentry FF getting put down and part of the problem is zerg being too greedy vs the protoss builds.
On March 29 2011 01:13 purecarnagge wrote: i still think increasing sentry supply or FF energy to 75 is key. Right now protoss if sentry who spams FF alot wins. When in doubt FF everything.
The problem with zergs is simple they are too greedy with drones. A zerg would rather be 8 drones ahead than 8 drones behind. But you cannot tell me that being even drones/probes is bad. Example if Idra would have already had 5 more roaches at there base. They could have done more.
Part of the problem is they came out to engage with an inferior force that was going to rely on there rally to sustain/hold off the attack. The protoss is able to stop this. So basically, they drone too much get to greedy and dont' make an army. They have a small army and die. Also by having this army they could have possibly baited the toss into using FF while traveling across the entire map instead of at there natural expansion.
so part of the problem is the amount of sentry FF getting put down and part of the problem is zerg being too greedy vs the protoss builds.
I don't understand your post. You're saying it's zerg's fault for droning too hard, but forcefields are broken and need to be more expensive. Which is it?? "Right now protoss if sentry spams FF alot win." This is absolutely ridiculous. I think you're being a bit too subjective.
On March 29 2011 00:41 Alejandrisha wrote: i think the way you fix them is by making it so units can't get stacked up and stuck in between them. it can work for and against the ff user at random times and takes away from the mechanic. sometimes you trap units you don't mean to trap and sometimes you push away units you don't want to push away. take the idra vs. cruncher game. idra had 5 roaches stacked on one another that could not move or attack... call it "skill" or w/e but that didn't seem very fair and i am a toss user O_O
Yeah it's fucking stupid and makes these games sooooo boring to watch, it's much better if you can actually micro back and forth to buy time if you aren't completely ready to defend, but force fields deny micro if you try to hit and run and deny reinforcements if you just run and wait. I guess burrow is a MUST HAVE if there is any possibility of 6gate but I don't know.
What about something like diminishing returns on FF the same area? If you put a FF down the area around it (about the size of a power field) starts diminishing for how long they last.
Of course after you throw down one FF, the ones after will disappear faster, so to fix that you get a 5 second window to cast all the FF you want before the ones after suffer from diminishing returns. Then the area of those FFs get a 30 second refresh timer after the last one. After 30 seconds if no other FF are used in that area, you get full length FF, otherwise they begin timing out quicker.
Really good FF make zerg look silly as MC demonstrated. Split your army in half, kill it for free - Make half unable to move or return fire - Block ramp, free kill on expo, cut production in half because reinforcements at natural are too few to fight effectively.
It's a good unit and totally necessary, but it might be a little too good. I'm sure zerg would love a unit at tier 1.5 that makes half your warp gates not work if they are "near" your ramp.
I would gladly sacrifice the stupid BB gun ghosts carry if sentries had their attack removed as well. Sentries deal 90% of marauder DPS to non-armored targets, have nearly the same HP as 2 marines and have two killer spells now that guardian shield actually gets used, you need no extra tech for them and can get them early enough so they can build up energy.
I can understand the "toss loses to stim timings without FF" to a degree. But that's why stim research time was increased. So is it too much to ask to limit a sentry to one force field at a time? That's still enough to cut things in half or wall of chokes, but it's not enough to completely fill the space between the natural CC and my ramp with fields removing all my troops from the battle until my CC had been destroyed and the toss moved back.
If you took away the sentry's ability to attack, kinda made them like an infestor, you'd not see so many of them. Maybe buff stalkers and get rid of the beam? I dunno!
They are such an integral part of protoss play, I really don't see how FFs can be changed that wouldn't wouldn't make them useless.
The problem with the idea of nerfing ff's is that they are kind of what allow the toss to be agressive in the first place. There is NO way you are ever going to take on terran bio without them. gateway units just don't compare to them(yes you can name some exceptions i.e. mvp vs Adel, but most of sc players or not even close to that good).I think forcefields are pretty balanced in pvt. pvz on the other hand is another matter completely.
Now I play toss and I'm just silver league(wich makes me a noob, yes I know). But I have only lost 1 out of my last 14 pvz's(often against superior opponents(gold and plat), just by planting decent forcefields. The fact that they turn both zerg early game defence units useless is somewhat ridiculous, but what exactly can you do about it without screwing up pvt. No forcefields means terrans can go back to bombrushing ramps with stimmed marauders, and I know for sure no-one wants that(except for terran players of course). I think the answer lies in introducing a new early game unit for zerg(or making hydras hatch tech again), but that'll probaly have to wait until heart of the swarm.
Anyway that's just my opinion feel free to bash me
Blizzard said instead of nerfing FF (because they like seeing them and people use FF) they would just nerf the damage from 8 to 6. They didn't want people massing them and having basically infinite FF and guardian shield (which incidentally destroys zerg because of their low range units).
Guess what? People massed them anyway and we're right back where we started. 12 sentry 6 gate is pretty disgusting and almost impossible to stop if controlled properly.
I've read a lot of the threads but obviously not all 35 pages of them, and although there has been some interesting ideas posted I haven't seen my idea posted yet.
What about giving the FFs a health bar?
If there is enough health to it, it would still delay/prevent terrans to come up the ramp... later in the game the player being FFed would have to choose whether the FF is well placed enough for him to be better off breaking out rather than continuing to attack or going around it. I'm nowhere near good enough to suggest the level of health that would be optimal to strike balance but I still think it's worth a look...
I'm a noob, let me have it(respectfully) if I'm way off, I'll end up understanding the game better.
On March 29 2011 03:45 Thorn Raven wrote: How about only letting ForceFields be placed where there is Pylon power? It would be huge, but could add some much needed depth.
This would break so many things I can't even begin to describe it.
I personally think FF is fine as it is. FF is an absolutely crucíal tool for P to survive early pressure and nerfing it too much will make it very difficult for P in early game. If Blizzard even considers nerfing sentries or FF then I would prefer a gas cost increase rather than any changes to the spell or the unit itself. That would make the amount of sentries smaller, the P player will value his sentries more and be more careful moving out with them on the map.
On March 29 2011 03:44 TerranBanker wrote: I've read a lot of the threads but obviously not all 35 pages of them, and although there has been some interesting ideas posted I haven't seen my idea posted yet.
What about giving the FFs a health bar?
If there is enough health to it, it would still delay/prevent terrans to come up the ramp... later in the game the player being FFed would have to choose whether the FF is well placed enough for him to be better off breaking out rather than continuing to attack or going around it. I'm nowhere near good enough to suggest the level of health that would be optimal to strike balance but I still think it's worth a look...
I'm a noob, let me have it(respectfully) if I'm way off, I'll end up understanding the game better.
TB
I'll give you the simplest reason that it can't have a health bar.
Take stimmed marines + marauders vs zerglings + roaches. The greater dps is from the stimmed marines and marauders. That means that we have 2 choices for the health of a forcefield. 1) We can make it too tough for early stimmed marines + marauders to break down. However, this still means that Protoss can cut Zerg off from reinforcements, as there is no way that roach/zergling can break what marine/marauder cannot. 2) We can make it possible for Zerg to break in under 15 seconds (as this is the duration and the way that Zerg will benefit). However, this means that marine/marauder with stim can break it even faster, making a much higher sentry requirement to hold off a 3-rax. However, there is not enough early game gas to build more than 2 sentries before the push hits, which means that 2 forcefields that will last maybe 5 seconds need to hold it off.
These are really the only two options save buffing something else from the gateway, which will buff the 4-gate.
On March 29 2011 03:44 TerranBanker wrote: I've read a lot of the threads but obviously not all 35 pages of them, and although there has been some interesting ideas posted I haven't seen my idea posted yet.
What about giving the FFs a health bar?
If there is enough health to it, it would still delay/prevent terrans to come up the ramp... later in the game the player being FFed would have to choose whether the FF is well placed enough for him to be better off breaking out rather than continuing to attack or going around it. I'm nowhere near good enough to suggest the level of health that would be optimal to strike balance but I still think it's worth a look...
I'm a noob, let me have it(respectfully) if I'm way off, I'll end up understanding the game better.
TB
I'll give you the simplest reason that it can't have a health bar.
Take stimmed marines + marauders vs zerglings + roaches. The greater dps is from the stimmed marines and marauders. That means that we have 2 choices for the health of a forcefield. 1) We can make it too tough for early stimmed marines + marauders to break down. However, this still means that Protoss can cut Zerg off from reinforcements, as there is no way that roach/zergling can break what marine/marauder cannot. 2) We can make it possible for Zerg to break in under 15 seconds (as this is the duration and the way that Zerg will benefit). However, this means that marine/marauder with stim can break it even faster, making a much higher sentry requirement to hold off a 3-rax. However, there is not enough early game gas to build more than 2 sentries before the push hits, which means that 2 forcefields that will last maybe 5 seconds need to hold it off.
These are really the only two options save buffing something else from the gateway, which will buff the 4-gate.
Yeah exactly, but I still think limiting the total number of FFs is the best answer.
Personally I think FFs are a poorly designed ability in the first place. If a toss uses the right timing with 5-7 sentries and FFs very well, you're almost assuredly dead as zerg. Plus with the ability to deny scouting to make it not seem like a complete all in, it's really difficult with that many sentries as there's relatively larger room for error for the toss, but not the zerg when it comes to positioning. Zerg HAS to have a very good concave and very favorable terrain to win a lot of battles, but because protoss can manipulate that at will it puts pressure on zergs to guess and get burrow without completely knowing what is actually coming.
On the other hand....I feel gateway units and early toss pushes would be far too weak without FF, so it's tough. Which is why I feel it's bad design in general, it bounces between overpowering and too vital to be removed/nerfed hard.
On March 29 2011 04:15 Serpico wrote: Personally I think FFs are a poorly designed ability in the first place. If a toss uses the right timing with 5-7 sentries and FFs very well, you're almost assuredly dead as zerg. Plus with the ability to deny scouting to make it not seem like a complete all in, it's really difficult with that many sentries as there's relatively larger room for error for the toss, but not the zerg when it comes to positioning. Zerg HAS to have a very good concave and very favorable terrain to win a lot of battles, but because protoss can manipulate that at will it puts pressure on zergs to guess and get burrow without completely knowing what is actually coming.
On the other hand....I feel gateway units and early toss pushes would be far too weak without FF, so it's tough. Which is why I feel it's bad design in general, it bounces between overpowering and too vital to be removed/nerfed hard.
One of the most basic early pushes (light gas 4-gate) doesn't really use sentries, so I don't really agree that the early pushes would be poor. I'm more concerned with living against early game zerg pushes. Some of our defense there is entirely FF.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Make FF Horizontal walls instead of round so the sentry has to be perpendicular to FF the ramp and spamming FF with a sentry ball less effective (could leave some hole on the sides)
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
A Stalker does as much dps as an unstimmed Marine to non-armored targets. A Sentry does even less than that, while having the same range as the Marine. Damn strong indeed. :/
And the only reason they beat Mutalisks for cost, is due to how strong Guardian Shield is against Mutas. Without GS, Sentries lose quite miserably.
I mean, you can discuss the power of FF, against Zerg in particular, but spreading outright falsehoods really doesn't make your point any stronger. For instance, it always makes me sad when Zergs say things like "Toss units are just too cost-effective compared to Zerg units.", because that's just a fundamental lack of understanding of the way Protoss works in SC2.
On March 29 2011 03:45 Thorn Raven wrote: How about only letting ForceFields be placed where there is Pylon power? It would be huge, but could add some much needed depth.
This would break so many things I can't even begin to describe it.
LMAO. Well for one, you couldn't complain about surviving pushes, because you'd still have forcefield there. It simply wouldn't be insta-win versus any ground army when on the offensive.
GASP, you can place pylons anywhere? And you could have a warp prism fly over his ramp if you still wanted to do that cheap trick later? And don't you tell me that having a warp prism over there in time is impossible because that is EXACTLY how Idra died to Crusher.
Keep in mind during this that a Stalkers and Sentries are the two most expensive tier 1-1.5 units. If you're going to complain about stalkers/sentries, at least complain about them having too much health or something - their dps is pretty terrible.
Forcefields last too long. 15 seconds per forcefield means you can block a ramp for 14 years. Decrease the lasting time to 10-12 seconds and ramp-blocking won't be nearly as gamebreaking. As for open engagements, there are many things a player can do to beat force fields. This thread contains so many of them that I feel its unnecessary to repeat... IMO: nerf forcefield lasting time 3-5 seconds, and maybe nerf sentry damage from 6 to 5.
On March 29 2011 06:17 Baeksucho wrote: Make FF Horizontal walls instead of round so the sentry has to be perpendicular to FF the ramp and spamming FF with a sentry ball less effective (could leave some hole on the sides)
I think that would be a huge buff, if I understand you correctly. A forcefield wall with holes in it would still hugely restrict movement and mess up the other army's concave while allowing the other army to commit suicide by pushing through it after the half on the side of the army is dead.
Keep in mind during this that a Stalkers and Sentries are the two most expensive tier 1-1.5 units. If you're going to complain about gateway units, at least complain about them having too much health or something - their dps is pretty terrible and everyone knows it.
Zealots hit twice so their dps is actually double that, making zealots freaking beasts.
@people saying set sentry energy at 75 to start and make FF cost 75 energy to cast: this would make it a lot harder to hold a 4 gate in pvp with 3 gates as your first sentry would not get 2 FFs. That's something that would be rather unfortunate, as 4 gate makes for already stupid PvPs.
This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Even before the stalkers...
6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)...
-540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units.
That's...
-385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches
Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return.
The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
On March 29 2011 06:30 Skank wrote: Forcefields last too long. 15 seconds per forcefield means you can block a ramp for 14 years. Decrease the lasting time to 10-12 seconds and ramp-blocking won't be nearly as gamebreaking. As for open engagements, there are many things a player can do to beat force fields. This thread contains so many of them that I feel its unnecessary to repeat... IMO: nerf forcefield lasting time 3-5 seconds, and maybe nerf sentry damage from 6 to 5.
Midgame it means you can block a ramp for a long time. Early game it means you have a chance of keeping your ramp blocked to a roach all-in until you can get yourself more than 2 units.
"Every sentry can only have one forcefield active at a time" seems to be able to solve all the FF QQ. This change still allows forcefields to be used effectively on defense but less powerful overall in offensive pushes because to create perfect force fields, Protoss would have to have way more sentries. This would still allow perfectly placed force fields to be game changing but makes the standing army to be less devastating because it is comprised of sentries and not zealots/stalkers/other powerhouse units.
ForceFields are Tearing up the Basics of the 12 year old GamePlay imo...
Making BuildOrders is an Art !!! Organizing to have a good unit composition against Every Timing Attacks, getting a Detector and a Scout in time. Sadly Protosses don't need to organize anything against Timing Attacks, it's enough to get a SentryMass EarlyGame, so 99,9% of them "play" this way.
I'm only at Platina Region Top 100 right now with my Alt, but Never made a Sentry !!! So NoOne is Allowed to Whine about Protoss cannot survive EarlyGame without ForceFields.
On March 29 2011 07:17 marshmallow wrote: This is one of the many ripple effects of the unholy trinity of Roach-Marauder-Immortal, among other Blizzard design decisions.
On March 29 2011 06:26 Mailing wrote: Sentries do enough damage to kill units fast. With Force Field, they can kill units without ever being hit, and it only costs renewable energy.
If you watch some of the MC pushes, he can go a far as killing an entire zerg defense without losing more than 2-3 units, it's that insane.
Correction: They can kill units with lower range without getting hit. There's a reason why you generally don't see tons of sentries in PvT, they're pretty crap vs armies with a decent attack range. This really has more to do with Roaches being such a weird early unit than Sentries being too good imo.
Although I'm not altogether opposed to a 15 second cooldown on FF, and maybe a Sentry energy upgrade on the TC (so we can use Hallucination and GS more instead of saving it all for a million FFs).
On March 29 2011 07:17 marshmallow wrote: This is one of the many ripple effects of the unholy trinity of Roach-Marauder-Immortal, among other Blizzard design decisions.
Why Immortal though? Because it's a counter to Armored? If you wanted "boring a-move units that screw up the game" then Colossus would've been a better choice.
On March 29 2011 07:17 marshmallow wrote: This is one of the many ripple effects of the unholy trinity of Roach-Marauder-Immortal, among other Blizzard design decisions.
Oh please, are people still complaining about those units? They are all actually pretty easy to deal with.
Sentries, on the other hand, you really can't do anything against them if they are microed well
On March 29 2011 06:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
that is a horrible way to look at it... by your same logic anything that made a matchup very one-sided, but not completely unwinnable would be balanced. Let's use an extreme example and make fungal growth last the full 8 seconds, but with the dps it does now. This would make any game where zerg got infestors, and landed some good FGs utterly imba, but before infestors, or if the FGs don't land quite right, or w/e, then the zerg can still lose. This does not make it balanced! You claim everything is all awesome and perfect, but you are saying that from a very obviously protoss bias, which makes your arguments frail at best.
I did Ctrl + F "Burrow" but didn't find it mentioned once in the OP and am curious as to why. As a Protoss player it seems as though Zergs can pretty easily "counter" Force Field from a 2base push with mass Sentry by just burrowing and sitting underground until the Force Fields die, then rinsing and repeating until he's all out.
On March 29 2011 06:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
that is a horrible way to look at it... by your same logic anything that made a matchup very one-sided, but not completely unwinnable would be balanced. Let's use an extreme example and make fungal growth last the full 8 seconds, but with the dps it does now. This would make any game where zerg got infestors, and landed some good FGs utterly imba, but before infestors, or if the FGs don't land quite right, or w/e, then the zerg can still lose. This does not make it balanced! You claim everything is all awesome and perfect, but you are saying that from a very obviously protoss bias, which makes your arguments frail at best.
No, it's not a horrible way to look at it. It's the right one, it's the one that made bw as successful as it is. It's not that the game should be changed when people are facing difficulties towards certain units / strategies, it's the players that should approach the game differently.
I don't want to say that everything is fine and balanced, but people are grossly overexaggerating. Guess what makes the game actually enjoyable. Right, spellcasters, multi pronged attacks and action. I can't believe how everyone want casters to be nerfed in this game. Some of them should get a heavy buff, so that 1a-ing isn't an option anymore.
On March 29 2011 06:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
that is a horrible way to look at it... by your same logic anything that made a matchup very one-sided, but not completely unwinnable would be balanced. Let's use an extreme example and make fungal growth last the full 8 seconds, but with the dps it does now. This would make any game where zerg got infestors, and landed some good FGs utterly imba, but before infestors, or if the FGs don't land quite right, or w/e, then the zerg can still lose. This does not make it balanced! You claim everything is all awesome and perfect, but you are saying that from a very obviously protoss bias, which makes your arguments frail at best.
The way that many people are looking at forcefields on this thread is "How can we nerf them so that we don't have to directly deal with them... because I don't like problem solving?" Rather than looking at how people are solving forcefields, people want Blizzard to nerf them. That's ridiculous, because people will always have problems with different units or spells. It's going to be a slippery slope; when do we stop patching everything and begin to play the game that we're given?
Sentries do not make Protoss overpowered; this is proven by the fact that the PvZ and PvT win percentages are not completely skewed in favor of the Protoss. It has nothing to do with what race I play; I'm taking an objective stance on this, because I'm looking at the statistics.
And your analogy is flawed because you're purposely coming up with a hypothetical scenario where everyone would necessarily agree that fungal growth is imbalanced, due to already-viewed buffs and nerfs to the infestor. There is no such patch on the sentry, and there shouldn't be one. There is no reason to nerf the sentry, because people who have actually tried are able to counter forcefields effectively. Furthermore, the current status of the forcefield is necessary to protect the Protoss in the early stages of the game from fast rushes.
On March 29 2011 06:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
that is a horrible way to look at it... by your same logic anything that made a matchup very one-sided, but not completely unwinnable would be balanced. Let's use an extreme example and make fungal growth last the full 8 seconds, but with the dps it does now. This would make any game where zerg got infestors, and landed some good FGs utterly imba, but before infestors, or if the FGs don't land quite right, or w/e, then the zerg can still lose. This does not make it balanced! You claim everything is all awesome and perfect, but you are saying that from a very obviously protoss bias, which makes your arguments frail at best.
The way that many people are looking at forcefields on this thread is "How can we nerf them so that we don't have to directly deal with them... because I don't like problem solving?" Rather than looking at how people are solving forcefields, people want Blizzard to nerf them. That's ridiculous, because people will always have problems with different units or spells. It's going to be a slippery slope; when do we stop patching everything and begin to play the game that we're given?
Sentries do not make Protoss overpowered; this is proven by the fact that the PvZ and PvT win percentages are not completely skewed in favor of the Protoss. It has nothing to do with what race I play; I'm taking an objective stance on this, because I'm looking at the statistics.
And your analogy is flawed because you're purposely coming up with a hypothetical scenario where everyone would necessarily agree that fungal growth is imbalanced, due to already-viewed buffs and nerfs to the infestor. There is no such patch on the sentry, and there shouldn't be one. There is no reason to nerf the sentry, because people who have actually tried are able to counter forcefields effectively. Furthermore, the current status of the forcefield is necessary to protect the Protoss in the early stages of the game from fast rushes.
Espousing that the game is unbalanced and it's the only reason for your losses is a foolish statement, but I would say the same for saying that the game, a unit, or a race as a whole is 100% balanced and nothing should be adjusted in time.
Please don't make this long of an OP, unless every sentence's brings something to the point. A tl;dr of 5 sentences would've been nice. Most people actually know what a sentry does. To completely defend a ramp with forcefields, and not only stall a bit, you need about 5-6 sentries. This is a 500-600 gas investment. It's not cheap. There are massive units to completely negate the effects of forcefields. Forcefields are there because a protoss gateway army isn't costefficient against anything (yeah, literally anything) unless forcefields are used. Let me give you an example. A marauder costs 100/25, and beats a stalker that's 125/50.
The statement that stalkers can kill infinite unupgraded hydras (when have you ever seen that in a pro game? people upgrade them instantly) when somehow forcefielded in a big immobile chunk is tbh more theorycrafting than I can handle. Infestors can do the same thing to stalkers, but the difference is that the hydras would actually win, regardless if they were upgraded or not. POW. If you somehow nerf the forcefield, you simply have to buff up the other gateway units to be on par with zerg and terran units, but in that case you'd face some pretty baller 4 gates.
On March 29 2011 06:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This thread clearly isn't "A thorough analysis of Force Fields". Unfortunately, it's degraded into "Let's come up with possible nerfs for the forcefield, assuming that it has to be nerfed in the first place".
The problem, of course, is that this axiom isn't true. Forcefields don't need to be nerfed at all, and sentries aren't overpowered. PvZ isn't broken, and neither is PvT. There are plenty of successful games where non-Protosses have done just fine beating their Protoss opponents. This is true all across the board, from the lowest level players to the pros. Multi-pronged attacks, constant harrassment, and not engaging in choke points are perfect examples of strategies that other races have used to counter the existence and mechanics of forcefields. This is probably why the current statistics of the match-ups show that the races are relatively balanced, as opposed to PvZ or PvT being overwhelmingly in favor of the Protoss.
The whining about forcefields, as well as the fixation about plausible nerfs, need to stop. Sentries and their abilities are fine just the way they are. Learn to deal with them as is.
that is a horrible way to look at it... by your same logic anything that made a matchup very one-sided, but not completely unwinnable would be balanced. Let's use an extreme example and make fungal growth last the full 8 seconds, but with the dps it does now. This would make any game where zerg got infestors, and landed some good FGs utterly imba, but before infestors, or if the FGs don't land quite right, or w/e, then the zerg can still lose. This does not make it balanced! You claim everything is all awesome and perfect, but you are saying that from a very obviously protoss bias, which makes your arguments frail at best.
The way that many people are looking at forcefields on this thread is "How can we nerf them so that we don't have to directly deal with them... because I don't like problem solving?" Rather than looking at how people are solving forcefields, people want Blizzard to nerf them. That's ridiculous, because people will always have problems with different units or spells. It's going to be a slippery slope; when do we stop patching everything and begin to play the game that we're given?
Sentries do not make Protoss overpowered; this is proven by the fact that the PvZ and PvT win percentages are not completely skewed in favor of the Protoss. It has nothing to do with what race I play; I'm taking an objective stance on this, because I'm looking at the statistics.
And your analogy is flawed because you're purposely coming up with a hypothetical scenario where everyone would necessarily agree that fungal growth is imbalanced, due to already-viewed buffs and nerfs to the infestor. There is no such patch on the sentry, and there shouldn't be one. There is no reason to nerf the sentry, because people who have actually tried are able to counter forcefields effectively. Furthermore, the current status of the forcefield is necessary to protect the Protoss in the early stages of the game from fast rushes.
Espousing that the game is unbalanced and it's the only reason for your losses is a foolish statement, but I would say the same for saying that the game is 100% balanced and nothing with sentries, protoss, or any race for the matter should be adjusted in time.
I agree, and I think Blizzard does a fantastic job of staying on top of its games as far as patches go, even years after the games have been released. With so many units, multiple races, and such a new game, it certainly isn't the case that SC2 is perfectly balanced or able to stop being patched yet.
However, I think that too many people are trigger-happy when it comes to what should be buffed and nerfed. It seems that people come across problems, and instead of analyzing them and trying to find solutions, they recognize that a buff or nerf to certain units would get rid of the problem much more easily than trying to find a solution based on the current status of SC2.
Let's take the forcefield scenario as an example of this. There was no serious whining about forcefields until MC stomped July in the finals of the GSL. Then there were half a dozen QQ threads on TL, a hundred people jumping on the bandwagon, and people not even noting that MC's overall strategies and execution were tiers above July's throughout the entire series, whether MC used forcefields or not. In essence, the forcefields played a very small role in the big picture. However, his forcefields were fantastic as well, and that was icing on the cake.
People love to cherry-pick games and ignore counterexampls. MC used forcefields very well when he needed to, but July's responses were never good in the first place (no roach burrow, no mutas, etc.). But why not look at other games and series in ZvP where the Zerg played well enough to overcome any sentry abuse? Why not, for instance, take a look at Sen vs. Naniwa in the GCPL ace series, on Metalopolis (game three), where Sen's constant harrassment made even great forcefield pressure irrelevant, since Sen was everywhere, playing the way a Zerg should play? Or why not check out game two of IdrA vs. Cruncher in the TSL, where IdrA's constant dropping and aggression made Cruncher's walls and any chance of defense useless?
That's the way Zerg should be played. These are all solutions to forcefields, and this is why the statistics show PvZ and PvT being relatively balanced. Protoss isn't kicking everyone's butt, because some people are finding in-game solutions to problems, instead of just calling for immediate nerfs.
If you play your Zerg the way you play your Protoss and Terran, then you're going to lose.
FF Vs Zerg is one of the most talked about topics on TL I think, it's probably also very hard to balance, So I commend Blizz on the job so far. However....
Perhaps the reason this topic is dredged from the depths of history over and over again is because of how FF affects Zerg gameplay? Think about it, 2/3 of the tier 1/1.5 Zerg units are melee. With the Roach only possessing 4 range I think?
A competant 3 -4 gate timing push with Sentries can be really hard to deal with as Z. We NEED overwhelming numbers (EG: like 4ish Sling per Zealot) and FF cuts the numbers advantage in half, by literally cutting the army in half, or blocking ramps for reinforcements etc.
In many cases there really isnt any alternative but to tech to Hydra's (range 7? outranges FF) Or Roach burrow tech. (burrow under FF) All of which is Tier 2. Which gives P a sick little timing they can take advantage of.
I really don't think there's anything we can do to change FF though without totally braking the game.
On March 29 2011 07:35 happyness wrote: Oh please, are people still complaining about those units? They are all actually pretty easy to deal with.
According to most everyone in this thread if Toss didn't have FF they would get roflstomped by Marauders and Roaches. Which is probably what Blizz intended at some point. I just wonder what came first: the marauder/roach as we know them or the FF protecting weak gateway units.
And this may be speculation, but I bet the way they made roaches messed up hydras really bad too. They thought they had to turn it into a turtle slow tank for some reason. And the damage inflation made them have to make the hydra buffer as well.
Making Thors is a good idea. Trump really favors them and it's hilarious when he pushes down his ramp and the Toss tries to throw down Force Fields... lolz ensue. Thors are pretty dang good when rushed for. Easy to expand off of as well. So instead of nerfs or changes to Force Field, we could just use one of the tools given to us.
On March 29 2011 07:35 happyness wrote: Oh please, are people still complaining about those units? They are all actually pretty easy to deal with.
According to most everyone in this thread if Toss didn't have FF they would get roflstomped by Marauders and Roaches. Which is probably what Blizz intended at some point. I just wonder what came first: the marauder/roach as we know them or the FF protecting weak gateway units.
And this may be speculation, but I bet the way they made roaches messed up hydras really bad too. They thought they had to turn it into a turtle slow tank for some reason. And the damage inflation made them have to make the hydra buffer as well.
First came the Warp Gate mechanic, to make the three races different.
Next came the crappy gateway units, as the Warp gate let them be anywhere in huge quantity rapidly.
Finally came the forcefield, as the gateway could not beat anything early game.
It isn't hard to deal with small numbers of marauders and marines, or small numbers of roaches (such would be produced in a standard build order). However, when the person focuses much more on an all-in play, it becomes almost unstoppable for Protoss - save for the forcefield. As has been mentioned, roaches had a great set of wins against Protoss as Zerg simply pushed out with 7 of them. Likewise, the 3rax also had a stretch where it defeated Protoss every time. Forcefield is literally the only way to fight off an all-in like those. If you don't believe me, go find a practice partner and test it.
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote: Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects: a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields. b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Excellent - excellent idea IMO. This would also make queens actually useful on the battlefield against P.
On March 29 2011 07:41 branflakes14 wrote: I did Ctrl + F "Burrow" but didn't find it mentioned once in the OP and am curious as to why. As a Protoss player it seems as though Zergs can pretty easily "counter" Force Field from a 2base push with mass Sentry by just burrowing and sitting underground until the Force Fields die, then rinsing and repeating until he's all out.
This. I've been opening with a very fast lair and burrowed roaches in every ZvP, and I no longer face any threat from force fields. Heck against a later 2 gas 4 gate, I'll even have tunneling claws by the time his army reaches my base. With 3 gate expand I can just macro like crazy because 9/10 times, my opponent will push out around 10:00, maybe cast some force fields, then immediately retreat once I burrow my roaches. Even with observers, retreating with burrowed roaches is safe, and moreso if you retreat from force fields as he'll be blocking his own army. Then what's left is useless energy-less sentries while I'll have a superior roach count.
So if you're still trying to figure out force fields, try giving up just a little economy to get the tech that's made to counter it.
On March 29 2011 07:41 branflakes14 wrote: I did Ctrl + F "Burrow" but didn't find it mentioned once in the OP and am curious as to why. As a Protoss player it seems as though Zergs can pretty easily "counter" Force Field from a 2base push with mass Sentry by just burrowing and sitting underground until the Force Fields die, then rinsing and repeating until he's all out.
This. I've been opening with a very fast lair and burrowed roaches in every ZvP, and I no longer face any threat from force fields. Heck against a later 2 gas 4 gate, I'll even have tunneling claws by the time his army reaches my base. With 3 gate expand I can just macro like crazy because 9/10 times, my opponent will push out around 10:00, maybe cast some force fields, then immediately retreat once I burrow my roaches. Even with observers, retreating with burrowed roaches is safe, and moreso if you retreat from force fields as he'll be blocking his own army. Then what's left is useless energy-less sentries while I'll have a superior roach count.
So if you're still trying to figure out force fields, try giving up just a little economy to get the tech that's made to counter it.
If you've managed to figure out how to do that [EDIT] without dying to more conventional 4 gate attacks or DT/blink/robo/stargate plays[/EDIT], I'd like to have a replay pack from you.
There's a sick timing window before my T2 takes effect where I have absolutely no clue how to deal with forcefields (other than trying to somehow have a big enough army to engage in the middle of the map without totally screwing my economy, or sacking lings and roaches to kill sentries and waste energy before he can get to my nat), and wins are relying on my opponent fucking up his forcefields rather than me being able to outplay him..... So if you've figured something out that can deal with it, I'd like to see it.
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Even before the stalkers...
6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)...
-540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units.
That's...
-385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches
Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return.
The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
oh noes! 300/600 worth well micro'd units can kill 225/75 worth of units, the game must be broken!
On March 29 2011 09:07 Ridiculisk wrote: FF Vs Zerg is one of the most talked about topics on TL I think, it's probably also very hard to balance, So I commend Blizz on the job so far. However....
Perhaps the reason this topic is dredged from the depths of history over and over again is because of how FF affects Zerg gameplay? Think about it, 2/3 of the tier 1/1.5 Zerg units are melee. With the Roach only possessing 4 range I think?
A competant 3 -4 gate timing push with Sentries can be really hard to deal with as Z. We NEED overwhelming numbers (EG: like 4ish Sling per Zealot) and FF cuts the numbers advantage in half, by literally cutting the army in half, or blocking ramps for reinforcements etc.
In many cases there really isnt any alternative but to tech to Hydra's (range 7? outranges FF) Or Roach burrow tech. (burrow under FF) All of which is Tier 2. Which gives P a sick little timing they can take advantage of.
I really don't think there's anything we can do to change FF though without totally braking the game.
I agree completely. If you tech to those things you have a smaller army, and it would just lose without the need to FF as much, but even if you got Lair+Burrow+Tunneling Claws your lings can't move while burrowed, and you need them to hold it off.
The biggest issue I see is the ability to stack units into a size that they couldn't occupy otherwise though. Case in point:
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Even before the stalkers...
6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)...
-540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units.
That's...
-385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches
Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return.
The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
oh noes! 300/600 worth well micro'd units can kill 225/75 worth of units, the game must be broken!
...
can you read?
It's 225/75 worth of damage from just a support unit without those support units having to TAKE ANY DAMAGE. So you know, they're still alive afterwards. And you know, every second a sentry lives it gets stronger and stronger because it builds up energy.
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
For such a long post, I'm surprised that it didn't provide any insight at all. You mentioned at the right timings Zerg won't have a suitable counter, isn't that supposed to fall under a good timing push? Give some examples where protoss can ALWAYS exploit this timing to actually prove a point my friend.
Secondly, your theoretical arguments are so ridiculous, what's up with roach has 4 range stalkers have 6 range so roaches technically have 0 range should they get FFed. This is such a joke, in order for that to happen, you'll have to do a front and back FF on the roaches probably wasting a significant amount of energy (not even sure if that is efficient for a medium sized battle). Additionally, you'll have to position your stalkers at a perfect range, at most only 1 wave of them can be hitting the roaches due to their collision size. I can't believe you fail to consider all this in your extremely biased post.
Lastly, if you're to analyze the different races. You'll note that stalkers are way too inefficient to deal with roaches/hydras/marines/marauders. Sure they can hit air and move slightly faster and have a longer range but that is why they are inefficient (expensive), they are multipurpose units. I know comparing units on a 1 - 1 basis is just stupid, but i'm doing it since you did it with the range comparison.
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Even before the stalkers...
6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)...
-540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units.
That's...
-385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches
Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return.
The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
Sigh, if you're a zerg that can get your 385 minerals worth of lings stuck in FFs then you should just quit the game. A reason why FFs are so important is due to the ridiculous speed of the zerg army. Please post a replay of yourself surrounding that army of units with FFs and killing all of them with your 6 sentries. FFs do not last forever btw.
On March 29 2011 13:13 happyness wrote: I liked what sen did in the GSL team world thing against two-base 5-gate: just build a ton of spines as FF doesn't affect them.
Though Sen is very vocal on how much he thinks FF are imba :D
Are you referencing that video he made back after some MLG that i can not remember where he played toss for a few games on someone else's korean account and just went mass FF. I love that video he makes the best commentary during it.
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away.
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away.
Then you'd be able to block a ramp offensively or defensively the entire game and ud be able to basically have a permanent wall anywhere u go with just 4 or 5 sentries. A zerg wouldnt even be able to borrow and wait them out. This is not a good idea...
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away.
Then you'd be able to block a ramp offensively or defensively the entire game and ud be able to basically have a permanent wall anywhere u go with just 4 or 5 sentries. A zerg wouldnt even be able to borrow and wait them out. This is not a good idea...
They can do that anyways with 3 sentries. I'm not saying get rid of the energy, just add a cooldown so that you can't spam so many at once.
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
Well unfortunately then emp is useless vs sentries. So it would hurt terran but help zerg....
Also it would take away the choice toss has to make between FF, guardian shield, and hallucination. So sentries would be able to get that shield up every battle(again bad for terran)
Well they could have a cooldown but still require energy, I definately don't want to see the ghost/sentry micro game go away as that would just dumb down the game. Removing energy would also remove the zerg tactic to poke and force them to use up energy, which would also dumb down the game. Of course if the cooldown was the same duration as the FF, it would be the same as only allowing one FF at a time per sentry.
I also really like the massive queen idea because it actually adds depth to the game so zerg has to do something about the FFs instead of just nerfing them, adding depth to the game. Also cool how it would make FFs much easier to deal with defensively but not offensively unless you have insane creep spread. One thing I would be worried about is how well queens can handle void rays, but it might work out okay.
On March 30 2011 04:33 Treemonkeys wrote: I also really like the massive queen idea because it actually adds depth to the game so zerg has to do something about the FFs instead of just nerfing them, adding depth to the game. Also cool how it would make FFs much easier to deal with defensively but not offensively unless you have insane creep spread. One thing I would be worried about is how well queens can handle void rays, but it might work out okay.
It really annoys me that people make these suggestions from Zerg's point of view without considering some of the implications.
One implication here that annoys me is Phoenixes (Phoenicii?). Phoenix in PvZ are currently used mostly to pick up Queens and Drones. If Queens are massive, Phoenix will be used even less in favour of Void Rays, since then both Spore Crawlers and Queens would be immune to them, and only Drones would be able to be picked up. This would also reduce the value of Spore Crawlers, as why would anyone get Spore Crawlers when you can get moveable ones which can inject larva, spread creep, attack ground and so on?
On March 30 2011 04:33 Treemonkeys wrote: I also really like the massive queen idea because it actually adds depth to the game so zerg has to do something about the FFs instead of just nerfing them, adding depth to the game. Also cool how it would make FFs much easier to deal with defensively but not offensively unless you have insane creep spread. One thing I would be worried about is how well queens can handle void rays, but it might work out okay.
It really annoys me that people make these suggestions from Zerg's point of view without considering some of the implications.
One implication here that annoys me is Phoenixes (Phoenicii?). Phoenix in PvZ are currently used mostly to pick up Queens and Drones. If Queens are massive, Phoenix will be used even less in favour of Void Rays, since then both Spore Crawlers and Queens would be immune to them, and only Drones would be able to be picked up. This would also reduce the value of Spore Crawlers, as why would anyone get Spore Crawlers when you can get moveable ones which can inject larva, spread creep, attack ground and so on?
On March 30 2011 04:33 Treemonkeys wrote: I also really like the massive queen idea because it actually adds depth to the game so zerg has to do something about the FFs instead of just nerfing them, adding depth to the game. Also cool how it would make FFs much easier to deal with defensively but not offensively unless you have insane creep spread. One thing I would be worried about is how well queens can handle void rays, but it might work out okay.
It really annoys me that people make these suggestions from Zerg's point of view without considering some of the implications.
One implication here that annoys me is Phoenixes (Phoenicii?). Phoenix in PvZ are currently used mostly to pick up Queens and Drones. If Queens are massive, Phoenix will be used even less in favour of Void Rays, since then both Spore Crawlers and Queens would be immune to them, and only Drones would be able to be picked up. This would also reduce the value of Spore Crawlers, as why would anyone get Spore Crawlers when you can get moveable ones which can inject larva, spread creep, attack ground and so on?
Sorry to annoy you but they are only thoughts, they don't really harm you. Wasn't even my idea.
Perhaps if they make FF last longer the closer the sentry is to a pylon. If a protoss is defending his base, there will be lots of pylons so the FF would last a long time and be very good defensively. If the protoss is attacking the enemy base without any pre-built pylons near, the FF wouldn't last long. Also, a protoss can't build a pylon on creep so that would prevent protoss from using the long lasting version of the FF on zerg territory.
The idea of FF was stupid in the first place. Watching a high level game where units are stuck down/up a ramp by a FF is dumb. It feels like something that should have been left in single player. I'm not sure what blizzard was thinking when they incorporated it in the game, it ruins micro mechanic and it just looks silly seeing unit stuck by force fields.
I wish they would make FF an upgrade from T3. Its easily the most overpowered and retarded spell in the game. It has no place in early game fights, or even mid game fights for that matter. So absurd all around.
On April 13 2011 02:56 Owarida wrote: I wish they would make FF an upgrade from T3. Its easily the most overpowered and retarded spell in the game. It has no place in early game fights, or even mid game fights for that matter. So absurd all around.
FF should be changed to a channeled ability, 1 per sentry and sentry cant do anything else. So toss can defend early game and still can throw down good forcefields but it cant be abused like forcefielding half of the screen.
On April 13 2011 02:56 Owarida wrote: I wish they would make FF an upgrade from T3. Its easily the most overpowered and retarded spell in the game. It has no place in early game fights, or even mid game fights for that matter. So absurd all around.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Sure, go ahead and take away forcefields... but give protoss stim packs for stalkers and zealots, and mobile shield batteries.
Actually, mobile shield batteries would be an awesome unit. Imagine how much more use you'd see out of warp prisms if they regenerated shields of units in their pylon energy grid while deployed?
From a caster perspective, toss are already screwed. I mean, infestors are rediculously useful to the zerg, and I can't tell you how much grief ravens give me in TvP. There's infested terrans, fungal, auto-turrets, emp... all of which require no research cost. Yes, they aren't T1 available, but with the amulet gone, FF is really the only dangerous spell toss has.
I highly suggest the zergs on here QQing over FF try and play a few matches as protoss then come back with the "suggestions".
There is too much CC in SC2, it doesnt fit a RTS game imo. SC:BW had very little CC and it often had a huge downside (arbiters crystalize made units unattackable), queens only slowed not stunned and were very high tech units.
Forcfields, marauder slows and fungal are 3 spells that for me makes SC2 a far inferior game - they bring nothing to the table - its negative gameplay -- it removes micro from your opponent and it leaves no excitement factor for the spectator.
On April 13 2011 03:30 Rob28 wrote: From a caster perspective, toss are already screwed. I mean, infestors are rediculously useful to the zerg, and I can't tell you how much grief ravens give me in TvP. There's infested terrans, fungal, auto-turrets, emp... all of which require no research cost. Yes, they aren't T1 available, but with the amulet gone, FF is really the only dangerous spell toss has.
I highly suggest the zergs on here QQing over FF try and play a few matches as protoss then come back with the "suggestions".
In what universe? I'm sorry you don't get to warp in 8 army-killing high templar with storm instantly available anymore, and have to actually wait a few seconds. You still have feedback which is amazing, and all the sentry spells which are amazing. Fungal growth is very good now, but collosi have the same range so it's hard to get it off without getting your big fat caster unit (seriously, why are the other casters so small while the infestor is so freakin big?) with 90 health slaughtered (ps, did I mention feedback? Wheres my spell to stop your caster?). Infested terran is only occasionally useful. Ravens are extremely powerful, I'm with you there, but to say toss is screwed solely on the basis that high templar don't have storm energy when they warp in anymore is disingenuous at best.
Also, "no research cost" is misleading, and you know it. Sentries with FF are the only ones that really require "no research cost." The other spellcasters you need a specialized building for, and not something like the cyber core that you would absolutely have to get no matter what anyway.
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.-
Even before the stalkers...
6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)...
-540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units.
That's...
-385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches
Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return.
The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
Sigh, if you're a zerg that can get your 385 minerals worth of lings stuck in FFs then you should just quit the game. A reason why FFs are so important is due to the ridiculous speed of the zerg army. Please post a replay of yourself surrounding that army of units with FFs and killing all of them with your 6 sentries. FFs do not last forever btw.
Why does it have to be lings? He mentions roaches...
I think we're all familiar with Idra v Cruncher recently?
Seriouslsy... who bumped this, lol. Some of the suggestions are ridiculous. Please, if you're going to make a suggestion. Explain IN-DEPTH what kind of effect that would have on the game. Not just that it would make a fight go one way of another, but how it affects timing and strategy and all that other good stuff.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote: So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
Different match-ups and situations have always affected the efficiency of specific units. For example in BW Protoss had to be weary of 2 hatch hydra all-ins. The same build against terran would not be nearly as effective.
Banelings just arent as useful as an all-in busting unit against P.
Obviously there's more to it but you get the idea.
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Is a terran QQing about his race right now? rofl fuckin copter.
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Is a terran QQing about his race right now? rofl fuckin copter.
That's exactly what I was thinking...
It's been said so much, but the metagame is changing so fast and SCII is still so young. Terran was largely considered to be the OP race for the longest time, and now that the focus has shifted over to Protoss, Terran get to whine about it? Terran have nothing to whine about, and as a P, I don't think that Protoss' do either. It's funny as hell.
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die.
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die.
you are doing it wrong if you have 2 units and he has 30 zerglings and 8 banes
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
So, even though you have 4 army supply and he has 20 supply, you should still be able to fight it off?
One thing that zergs are starting to learn (to my dismay) is that roach/hydra is a really bad composition in ZvP because their large unit models make them susceptible to splitting by forcefields. Roach/ling, hydra/ling, or ling/bling are all superior.
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
So, even though you have 4 army supply and he has 20 supply, you should still be able to fight it off?
Lol yeah you are right. every zvp should come down to a skirmish between lings and probes at the 4 minute mark. I apologize for making an idiot of myself.
On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote: Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die.
you are doing it wrong if you have 2 units and he has 30 zerglings and 8 banes
Baneling bust JulyZerg did against White-ra hit before Warpgates were even done and white-ra only had 2 units out, there was no way in hell he could have stooped that if he didn't have forcefields and near impossible to scout. The force fields didn't stop the baneling bust happening either, just delayed it.
A marine has more DPS than a Stalker, Terran have very cheap units to protect them from baneling busts as well as building repairs for super heavy ling aggression. When the baneling busts works and the lings get to the mineral line, then you are fucked because you just can't produce anymore, but Terrans have 50mineral units that they can use to pump out as well as defensive structures that they can salvage to get all their money back on top of mules to compensate for less SCV's.
It is MUCH easier to defend breaks as Terran, if you have watched Morrows stream he Roach/Baneling/Ling busts Terrans quite often, he even lost to a Terran who he managed to clean out his expo but a single Seige tank in the high ground being repaired made it impossible for him to break his ramp. In that case that tank was stronger than any force field, it was literally killing everything that tried to bust the ramp and the SCV's repairing it made it virtually invulnerable to the roaches, do we say we should nerf Seige tanks because a single one could stop 5 Roaches and and a handful of lings/banes from getting up a ramp? But still, after the Terran was down to a single Seige tank, lost most of his SCV's and had to lift his expo he ended up winning because Morrow said the break failed and was "too far behind"
Different races are different, just because Terran gets baneling busted easier doesn't mean that every race has to, the crying is absolutely pathetic but it is funny how this thread just died off, like all the Colossus threads the month before and the Voidray threads before that. I wonder what the next thing will be.
EPT
Contribute ideas more than you, well, do what is going on here <3
). I also think GS and hallucination are underused - pretty much I <3 sentries (if I ever switch to toss it's b/c of them). 
can just spam click and split up an opponents force into little pieces (and then watch while the AI makes any retreating units run into the wall and act confused). ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/1RbWp.jpg)
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