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On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote:
Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
Which leaves zerg guessing.
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On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss.
The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion.
And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrassment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
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On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map.
Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now.
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On March 22 2011 02:52 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map. Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics.
Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use.
So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect.
You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you.
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On March 22 2011 02:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:52 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map. Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics. Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use. So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect. You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you.
No statistics do not prove anything when the game is this new and the majority of the statistics are low level players.
Zerg can win if they successfully pass the guessing game in the early game. Saying "zerg won here" therefore doesn't do anything to sway my argument. We would have to look at why they won, if they guessed correctly, or if they somehow didn't have to guess and just used a safe build.
Oh and there's nothing bold about my claims. Almost every pro zerg agrees they are weak (if not all). Almost every pro thought MC would win, many openly saying "MC will win, he's protoss".
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I feel the only problem with removing force fields or changing them, is quite a signifigant one. Gateway units are hard countered by roaches and mnm, fundamental game flaw that the only answer too is the sentry and forcefields.
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On March 22 2011 02:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
OMG you guys are so dense.
Sorry, you're thick.
You make claims with no proof.
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On March 22 2011 03:04 Phayze wrote:
I feel the only problem with removing force fields or changing them, is quite a signifigant one. Gateway units are hard countered by roaches and mnm, fundamental game flaw that the only answer too is the sentry and forcefields.
lol, not MC's gateway units
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On March 22 2011 02:52 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map. Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now.
I don't understand two things about your comment:
1. Why you would say that you don't care about statistics from actual games (the only practical data relevant to this argument).
2. Why you think you can legitimately back up your opinion by saying "everyone knows Zerg is extremely weak in zvp right now".
Neither of those things make sense. "Everyone knows Treemonkeys is the most useless person ever to post on TL". Sorry, man, everyone knows it, it's true.
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On March 22 2011 03:03 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:52 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map. Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics. Clearly you don't. The only problem is, that's mathematical proof that refutes your argument that PvZ is broken, imbalanced, overpowered, and whatever other adjective you care to use. So it's very hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes incredibly bold claims (like you're doing) and then puts his hands over his ears (or I guess eyes?) when given an explanation as to why he's incorrect. You can cry about the match-up all you want, but there are far too many cases of Zergs beating Protosses (in other words, counterexamples to your claim) to make your argument hold water. And acting immature is not going to help you. No statistics do not prove anything when the game is this new and the majority of the statistics are low level players. Zerg can win if they successfully pass the guessing game in the early game. Saying "zerg won here" therefore doesn't do anything to sway my argument. We would have to look at why they won, if they guessed correctly, or if they somehow didn't have to guess and just used a safe build. Oh and there's nothing bold about my claims. Almost every pro zerg agrees they are weak (if not all). Almost every pro thought MC would win, many openly saying "MC will win, he's protoss".
lol two or three people said that (and one was IdrA, iirc), and the rest said MC would win because he's been playing far better than July has. And if you look at their paths to the GSL Finals, you'd see that MC completely dominated everyone and everything because he's MC, and July (while playing well overall) did not have as easy a time. MC completely outplayed July in all aspects of the game, not just because he used FFs. His strategies and mechanics were far superior.
And at the highest levels, it's relatively balanced too. The statistics show that. They've been broken down by leagues as well. So thinking that bronze and silver players are throwing off the statistics of the best gamers is incorrect. I'm actually quite surprised that you're so eager to ignore the facts and still stick with your opinion. Do realize that your stubbornness won't help your argument though. You'll need actual evidence.
But I don't think we're getting anywhere, so I don't see a reason to continue our discussion. I certainly don't want it to escalate for either of us. Enjoy your day.
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FF is not broken in TvP, but I agree that it is broken in TvZ.
By the time toss has enough to constantly FF, terrans should be able to have a medvac by then, or thors i guess. so its fine.
but vs TvZ, as we saw MC vs July, (even though no one really expected July to win...)
FF become impossible. the timings on those pushes make it nearly impossible for zergs to do anything.
I think one of the ways to fix it would be to count queens as a massive unit. They're slow, so it takes time to walk to ramp, if zerg wants to prevent it, they can spread creep/place queen on ramp just like stopping hellions.
or go further into making the FF as an upgrade in cybercore  but i think that will most likely screw toss over.
i do like the idea of sentry being able to cast 1 FF at a time. but still, if you have 2 sentries then, you can constantly stop zerg from getting out of ramp. only massive unit they have is ultra, which we all know, takes FOREVER to get to T3 as zerg compared to getting a thor or colossus.
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and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game.
lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo.
its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE.
2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that.
so you choose.
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What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
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On March 22 2011 03:06 SecondSandwich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:52 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 02:31 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 02:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2011 01:51 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 01:47 Dalavita wrote:On March 22 2011 01:44 Treemonkeys wrote:
There are no real imbalances? That's a nice statement but it isn't any reason to think it is true. Playing zerg is playing with a disadvantage plain and simple. No. Uh yes, if you play zerg you sign up to play Russian roulette at the beginning of every game and if you survive that then you can go into the midgame with some chance of winning. This is the zerg disadvantage. The statistics of race pairings all across the board show that the game is relatively balanced. If you're getting your butt kicked by other races, it's because you're doing something wrong. Analyze your replays, make threads with your analyses and your replays, and we'll do our best to help you out. Seriously what gives you the audacity to replay with this? I don't give a shit about my own games, they do not matter. Why? Because I don't even play against good protoss. Which also applies to 99% of the statistics you mentioned, they are just statistics of scrubs killing each other. I only care to see the game balanced at the highest level, and it is not, not even close, to the point it is getting uncomfortable to watch. Zerg cannot beat toss. The fact that you're raging about imbalance when, in reality, the fact of the matter is that PvZ is pretty much balanced. Go look at the win percentages and then come back; clearly you haven't looked at the statistics and are just speaking from personal emotion. And while you're at it, go check out the following game: + Show Spoiler +Sen vs. Naniwa in the recent GCPL ace series finals. Especially game three, on Metalopolis. He'll show you exactly how to crush Protoss, although the five games as a whole were fantastic. Constant harrasment, aggression, and not letting FFs (which were indeed used) stop him from doing damage all over the map. Nice repeating yourself dude, I don't care about statistics and I don't have a problem beating toss right now. Everyone knows zerg is extremely weak in ZvP right now. I don't understand two things about your comment: 1. Why you would say that you don't care about statistics from actual games (the only practical data relevant to this argument). 2. Why you think you can legitimately back up your opinion by saying "everyone knows Zerg is extremely weak in zvp right now". Neither of those things make sense. "Everyone knows Treemonkeys is the most useless person ever to post on TL". Sorry, man, everyone knows it, it's true.
Ok, so lets say the statistics say "ZvP, zerg wins 53%, toss wins 47%". What does this factually
and absolutely prove? That over a history of games, zerg and toss won these percentages. That's it, nothing more and nothing less.
How many games did zerg 6pool? How many games did toss 4gate? How many times did zerg win in close positions? How many times did zerg lose in far positions? Ultimately - did zerg deserve to win where they won? Did toss deserve to win where they won?
Even more importantly:
Can zerg win without a little luck, a little bit of lucky scouting, or lucky build order guessing when lucky scouting doesn't come through?
I'm saying no. There are to many instant win moves vs. zerg that are far too difficult for zerg to scout, to they point that zerg has to either luckily scout them, or luckily prepare for them.
So zerg is in the dark too much and has to many game ending moves to worry about, to the point where it is just a guessing game for them and unfair/imbalanced.
So for a moment, assume my argument is correct and run with it: what are statistics going to show? That zerg is winning sometimes and losing sometimes, which we already know. The statistics can't possibly make an argument as to how "fair" scouting options and game ending moves are for zerg, they will only show you they result of the guessing game.
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On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote:
and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game.
lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo.
its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE.
2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that.
so you choose.
Yeah this goes back into scouting problems.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win.
Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
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I have looked trough 5 pages in this thread but I have not found a solution, to my liking, to the problem (if there is a solution or a problem). My take on it: Make FF require more skill, by either
a, adding cast time delay for each FF by approx. 1 sec
or
b, require FF to be casted on a empty space ( a FF does not count as empty space)
A) By changing the cast time and adding a delay it would require the protoss to be more observant of enemy movement and more susceptible to flanking.
B) The protoss would have to use the FF precisely to minimize gaps (between FFs), unable to put FF on top of each-other (would require timing at ramps or used pre-emptively) and more susceptible to flanking ( especially speedlings as they could reach the protoss army really fast and the inability of sentrys put a FF on top of units)
As the situation stands now, it is possible for the protoss army to use FFs even when they are taken by surprise and still come out victorious in a battle. Are these ideas worth considering? (apologies and support to those who already posted ideas similar to these two)
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On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
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On March 22 2011 03:44 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:20 ReDeSCh wrote:
and trying to get roach tunneling claw and burrow is a HUGE investment in the early game.
lets say zerg only gets burrow. yeah, toss cant attack his units but the zerg will most definitely lose their expo.
its giving toss a FREE expo. lets them get ahead for FREE.
2base toss > 1base zerg. we all can agree on that.
so you choose. Yeah this goes back into scouting problems. Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into 6gate, zerg is in a good position and might win. Zerg gets burrow move in response to 3gate nexus into stargate play or DTs, zerg loses.
Actually, Zerg wins in all those positions, because Protoss doesn't have a robo to get observers.
Keep in mind that Zerg can actually be aggressive, or that Protoss (or Terran) may have to actually be responsive to what a Zerg does. (Another case in point: mutalisks.) Protoss won't be throwing up more than a cannon or two at the natural, which means that burrow move will be insanely strong once those cannons get popped (or avoided).
I don't think you're considering all possibilities for Zerg. I don't know if that's on purpose or not, but you shouldn't be so quick to say, "Zerg auto-loses if Protoss does X." Instead, you should be asking yourself (or others on TL): What would be a good response to X? Try things out. Then try more things out. Day[9] just did a Daily on this exact thing last night (how to counter builds, although he did it against a 4gate).
And in general, constant harrassment and aggression from Zerg players has been a very valuable asset against Protoss players and Terran players, because Zerg has far better mobility. A mutalisk harrass here, a speedling runby there... a doom drop in this other place... a nydus worm behind the smoke... that's how Zerg can really kick some ass (or at least keep P and T in their bases while Z powers up).
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Make the Queen Massive.
It already looks huge on screen, give it the ability to walk through ffs. Toss can still slow down reinforcements by ff the top and bottom or ramp alternatively, but it won't be such an instant win against zerg without roach burrow+move.
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On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro?
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EPT
